Possible Full engine management

[Sircnay]

Okay, here's a project in the works. My friend has ALL the software and ALL the equipment to burn and write maps for the ECU. We have been doing TONS of research and have come to the conclusion that full engine management using a daughter board and chips is possible.

Here's the question though. Would any of you be interested in this? It would be hundreds less than JWT to do the same thing. And my friend has been doing this for Hondas, Toyotas, etc. He knows what he's doing. The problem is we have no way of fabricating a daughter board so we're going to be ordering them from Badbiki (sp?) and then using chips that my friend has, writing our own maps.

Here's where you guys come in. If we buy in bulk the daughter boards will be cheaper than buying them one by one. So how many of you are interested in this little venture?

We're going to test this out on my SR20DET Red-top first before we start doing anyone elses. That way if we blow up my car we'll know that it didn't work. =)

[PalmerWMD]

CAn you tell us more about possible prices and capablities?So will this help me run more than stock boost?Will I need wide band MAF?Hi flow Injectors?

Do I specify my set-up when ordering?

Or?

Fred..(curious in Kentucky)..

[Sircnay]

Price will range somewhere between $200 +/- $50ish.

Umm. What we plan on doing is just remapping the ECU to change the duty cycles of the injectors and whatnot. We are trying to duplicate a Standalone in what it does. We will write our own maps. And the maps specifically for those who are interested. We're going to do some massive testing on my car before we start offering. I'm just giving a heads up.

It's going to be a bit before I can get any hard information on it. We're still doing research on the ECU because I don't have $2500 to blow on another SR20 in the event that I blow mine up. Oh and I have a bunch of KA24E and KA24DE friends so once we get this done on the SR20, we'll work on the KA24 also.

here's what my friend has to say about it:

Hey This is Sircnay's friend. I have been tuning Honda ECU's for awhile, basically rechipping them. Rechip and tuning is simular but different. Rechipping is generally using someone elses maps perhaps with the same set up (most just buy junk "eBay" chips, or there are chips that are fully programmable to do whatever you want. I have equipment to chip honda ecu's, Me and Chris did research and realized the internal workings of a Nissan ECU are the same as a honda, i have since gotten the software to tune Nissan Ecu's. Custom features include speed limit removal, Custom redline, custom fuel map and igniton map. Exact duplicate of what "Full Standalone" has to offer, all they do is adjust those parameters, which is basically controlling how your motor runs.

However on a Nissan, a daughterboard is required to supplement an external rom (data) However with daughterboards for Nissan's, there are 2 roms, you can switch it from aftermarket back to your stock one with just a switch, just for safe measure if u ever wanted to run your stock map again.

I can be reached via aim at Streetriceror [email protected] Thanks

[PalmerWMD]

Sounds good.

Fred...

[Def]

I don't mean to completely derail your business venture here, but it doesn't sound like you've got all the details worked out. How are you going to tune to individual setups without a wide margin of safety? The resulting tune will be just like JWT's, just a little cheaper. Unless you plan on pushing the envelope on other people's engines, which I hope you don't.

I also hope that $200 includes the daughterboard as well.

For everyone's edumacation, you can do this entire prospect yourself for slightly less than $200 if you're smart about it and willing to learn a bit more about your car. I'd wait a bit longer for SRTalk to come out(zcontrol.net link has more info). As that will make your experience much easier since you're following someone's footsteps as opposed to blazing your own trail.

Helpful links to get your steered in the right direction.

http://forum.ztechz.net

http://www.zcontrol.net

ROM Editor is also a neat way to look at fuel and ignition maps in 3D, and you can find ROMs at the ztechz forum to get an idea of how the factory "tunes" these cars.

[Sircnay]

yes the $200ish is the daughter board included. There's a lot more to it than I have said here. It's just really hard at the moment to explain.

[Sircnay]

Double post.

[VNTEC]

I don't mean to completely derail your business venture here, but it doesn't sound like you've got all the details worked out. How are you going to tune to individual setups without a wide margin of safety? The resulting tune will be just like JWT's, just a little cheaper. Unless you plan on pushing the envelope on other people's engines, which I hope you don't.

I also hope that $200 includes the daughterboard as well.

For everyone's edumacation, you can do this entire prospect yourself for slightly less than $200 if you're smart about it and willing to learn a bit more about your car. I'd wait a bit longer for SRTalk to come out(zcontrol.net link has more info). As that will make your experience much easier since you're following someone's footsteps as opposed to blazing your own trail.

Helpful links to get your steered in the right direction.

http://forum.ztechz.net

http://www.zcontrol.net

ROM Editor is also a neat way to look at fuel and ignition maps in 3D, and you can find ROMs at the ztechz forum to get an idea of how the factory "tunes" these cars.

Wait, i already have a rom editor for Nissan ECU's, if there wasnt software this wouldnt be possible (too much time honestly) Basically we will offer the adjustability of your stock ecu, compared to JWT's 400 dollar charge, this is 50% Cheaper, and with more tuning options then just a "baseline" then what JWT would offer. Consider it this way, most people upgrade their 240s and what not without even thinking about engine management, but for the people that do, JWT comes in mind, which no doubt can offer great services. Being able to set up base maps that is safe for the motor is easy. Just make sure u dont put in too much timing to detonate, cant get worst IMO Unless ur running TONS of power. However if u are getting up there i would recommend just getting a AEM EMS or some other standalone system, we're just trying to get our idea's out there at a fraction of the cost...

[VNTEC]

I went to the links provided, its really good to know there is a community out there working on this (what i hoped for) this is great, honestly we're not making much profit, the daughter boards cost around 100+ (which we arent sure where we're getting from yet) and The cost of chips, and the labor it takes to desolder and socket the ecu for the new daughterboard, it is very reasonable

[Def]

Sounds good. I'm not trying to bash on you guys, but stop another potential JWT in the mix. Yea, the daughterboard is in the $100 neighborhood, so you guys aren't really making much money from this.

I'd be careful though, as it is turning out that the K value on the SR ECU's is being a bit trickier than earlier cars. It uses a different formula for the ECU to determine the inj. pulsewidth, and some people have reported some weird driveability problems when just changing it due to the percentage inj. size change.

This ECU for $200ish and a $300 S-AFC would offer the same or better performance than JWT's setup for about the same cost as just their ECU.

[Sircnay]

S-AFC's totally ***** up your timing though. I want to stay away from those as much as possible.

No, the point isn't to make money. I'm trying to develop a simpler and cheaper way to tune my ECU and offer the services to you guys.

The more who are interested the cheaper this can be and of course that means a wider range of tuned SR20's to add to the mix. The more the better, this way the knowledge and datalog we get from all of this will benefit a lot of people.

[msaskin]

S-AFC's only mess up timing on cars that have strange timing curves from the factory. An example of this is the 3000GT/Stealth. From the factory they have a pretty standard timing curve for a turbocharged car (start w/ ~20 deg ign advance, advance if possible while not in boost, pull timing when knock is detected, etc...), with one difference. The stock turbos (TD04-9b) start losing boost at about 5500 rpm give or take. At this point, the stock ECU starts ramping up the ignition advance to a bit over 30 degrees. This is a problem when people start using larger injectors and an AFC, only if they are using larger turbos. The guys running upgraded injectors on stock turbos don't have timing issues because their boost still falls of at 5500 rpm. Most people running larger injectors upgrade their turbos however, and they begin to have timing & knock problems right around 5500 rpm, since their upgraded turbos are still holding boost where the factory timing map ramps up advance in order to overcome crappy small stock turbos

The SR doesn't really have these problems. I've looked at the timing maps many times...they're pretty good. Not great, but good enough, and I've yet to see timing issues on SR's running an AFC.

I already considered doing what you guys are planning at least a few months ago and decided it's not really worth it. I was planning on using my own software (which I have about 90% complete), a custom made daughterboard, and an EEPROM emulator, which is much like how Hondata works for the various honda engines.

~matt

[TruboostPerformance]

We are in the works of a flash setup for SR's, price ranges a little more than the setup you have mentioned, our price would be $400-500 fully tuned setup.

[Def]

Quote »I already considered doing what you guys are planning at least a few months ago and decided it's not really worth it. I was planning on using my own software (which I have about 90% complete), a custom made daughterboard, and an EEPROM emulator, which is much like how Hondata works for the various honda engines.[/quote]This is what I plan to do eventually. So what are your plans now? And why did you change your mind?

[msaskin]

This is what I plan to do eventually. So what are your plans now? And why did you change your mind?

Numerous reasons...but to list a few

-I moved away from doing pre-made chips for people because without having a persons car for me to tune in person, I'd end up with uber-safe, rich, low timing maps just like JWT-A majority of the SR owners in the 240 community seem to be content either using an SAFC, a JWT tune, etc., and don't want to to anything themselves. This kills off any possible market I would have.

I've worked on projects of this scale/complexity before, and between hardware & software development i'd be investing well over 200 hours of my own time. Unless I was going to see a decent yield from that (ideally about $20K, since I can take those 200 hours and make $100/hr. doing network engineering/consulting...my main job). Assuming I sold a ready to go setup for people to tune their own cars (a la hondata) for $500, I'd have to sell at least 20 of them, and frankly, I think I'd have a very hard time getting 20 people to buy something new because we all know, the majority of us are not willing to try something out unless it's been proven to work.

As of plans now; well, the software is basically done, but i've somewhat scrapped it. I've got the hardware around to burn to EPROMs, as well as a few daughterboards, so I'll probably burn some maps for myself and friends to use, and that's about it. I'm going to go standalone with my car shortly and am debating between hacking an AEM to work, Haltech E6k, Microtech LT8s, or PowerFC D-Jetro.

~matt

[Def]

I've thought about standalones, but it seems like I'd end up spending around $1500-1800 for a full setup. While I can burn EEPROMs and tune my car well for around $600 give or take. That includes a wideband, knock sensor and the required hardware for both options.

Just hard to justify that extra cost, even though you do get a nicer setup. It's like the cost of a really nice turbo upgrade!

[Def]

BTW - I'd love to take a look at your ROM you tuned. If you wouldn't mind, can you send it to [email protected] ?

Thanks man.

[msaskin]

I've thought about standalones, but it seems like I'd end up spending around $1500-1800 for a full setup. While I can burn EEPROMs and tune my car well for around $600 give or take. That includes a wideband, knock sensor and the required hardware for both options.

Just hard to justify that extra cost, even though you do get a nicer setup. It's like the cost of a really nice turbo upgrade!

Haltech e6k - under $1000 including all sensors necessary to runAEM - expensiveMicrotech LT8s - under $1000 for the ECU and laptop connection kit, you just have to order straight from australia to get the price Powerfc - under $1000 ready to run if you get it from japan via an importer (i'll be using http://www.greenline.jp). Add another $250-300 for FC-datalogit so you don't have to use the FC commander.

Another necessity (at least imho) is a wideband o2, but you'd need that to properly tune your own ROMs anyhow.

Also, I don't have any roms I've tuned yet. I have the software working but never had time to get the EPROM emulator running, and I've yet to install a daughterboard in my ECU. As soon as I do that and get my wideband in I'll have a chance to create a few maps to test out.

~matt

[Def]

The Haltech sounds nice except for the PITA wiring job it seems to entail.

AEM seems super easy to tune, but $$$. Convenience is nice though and worth something.

Haven't heard too many things about the Microtech...

PowerFC would be cool with the D-Jetro version, but it seems like it'd be within a hundred or so of an AEM setup - and at that price I'd rather go AEM(my personal preference).

Just how much of a pain is it to wire up a Haltech?

Regardless, I see myself just casually tinkering with the stock ECU to run a Z32 MAF and 550cc injectors for a pretty reasonable setup. I think a standalone isn't quite worth it at the power level I'll ultimately reach(just due to the lag associated with those monster turbos), and the factory ECU will hopefully just require some experimentation and learning*knock on wood!*.

[msaskin]

The haltech really isn't too bad. The e6k will work properly with the stock SR20 CAS, TPS, coolant sensor, igniter, and injectors. It's really just a matter of splicing the flying lead harness into the stock harness (or better yet, find someone selling a cut SR20 harness so you don't have to hack up a full one). I've installed a few haltechs on DSM's before and could get one installed and ready to start the car in a few hours total now. I'd say for my first time on an SR20 it would probably be a full day or two wiring and then another day messing around with the software to get the car to start. There are also a few decent basemaps out there to work from.

The power-fc D-jetro w/ the sensor kit comes out to about $950 total shipped to the USA if you order from http://www.greenline.jpAdd another $200-300 on to that for either the PowerFC Commander or better yet, the FC-Datalogit software and you're good to go, plus it's plug and play and comes with a damn good base map.

Microtech I haven't heard much about for the SR20, but they do have base-maps, and wiring should be similar to the haltech since it comes with a flying lead harness and a built-in MAP sensor. Total cost comes out to about $1000 or so if you order straight from australia, and that's with the connection kit to program it from a laptop/desktop computer.

The AEM right now takes a bunch of wiring hacking to make work, but eventually they'll release their plug and play one. I've tuned AEM's before and as of software version 1.0x, it's great to use. The downside is the cost...$1700+ for a usual install :-x

If all you're planning is 550's and a Z32, then you're right, a standalone may be overkill. Then again, a standalone can easily be responsible for helping get another 20-30 hp out of your setup due to being able to properly tune timing (vs. using an AFC or some other piggyback). The benefit of any standalone (vs. tuning the stock ROM) is being able to convert to a speed density setup. The fact that the car is perfectly driveable with an open BOV, or when you blow off an intercooler pipe is real nice. Add to that the fact that speed density is generally more accurate at measuring airflow, and you've got a real compelling reason to convert away from a MAF system.

There's also the MAP ECU, which is a piggyback similar to the old HKS VPC, which lets you convert to speed density. Benefit over the VPC is that it's programmable via a laptop, so you don't need to find an HK$ dealer to reprogram the chip for you.

~matt

[Def]

Interesting, I wasn't aware the Haltech and PFC D-Jetro version were semi-reasonable in price.

Out of the Haltech and PFC, which one would you choose?

I guess the cost increase in the PFC takes into account the ease of "plugging it in" versus wiring the Haltech. Yet which would you choose for ease of tuning and flexibility?

I do like speed density based systems when boosting, as the MAF systems is the only "ehhh" I have with possibly burning ROMs for the stock ECU. It'd be real tough to tell just how much boost/horsepower you're tuning for in each load cell, so it seems a bit sloppy compared to making nice, neat timing and fuel maps based on pressure.

[Sircnay]

I"m personally just horribly afraid of piggybacks becaause of all the possible reprocussions. Of course that could just be me being super ultra paranoid.

[msaskin]

Between the Haltech and PFC, it's really a toss-up. I think I would end up going with the PFC only because I've never used it before, and it's fun to learn new things

And you are right, the extra $200 or so, especially for a first-timer new to standalones, is well worth it given the "plug and play" nature of the PFC. If you go with the D-Jetro version you'll still have to do a bit of work to place the temp sensor in the intake air stream, as well as wire in the MAP sensor, but that's all relatively minor stuff.

~matt

[Hellion240sx]

where can you get the haltech for $1000???

[msaskin]

where can you get the haltech for $1000???

Used

I've gotten them used with good condition flying lead harnesses for as low as $700.

That said, you can get a new E6x from http://www.tweakit.net for about AU$1450, which is US$1015 (give or take, depending on exchange rate). They have the cheapest price i've found by far for both the E6x and the E11.

http://www.k2rd.com has pretty decent prices too, and they sometimes will have used E6x or E6k's floating around that they'll sell at a discount. I believe they quoted me $1000 shipped for a used E6k with a brand new flying lead harness, new coolant and map sensors, and a printed manual.

~matt

[Def]

One more question - where can one find the FC-Datalogit software? Seems Apex'i only gives this out to their certified shops?

The PFC Command looks pretty weak - can you even tune well with that thing? The screen is only about the size of an S-AFC...

[msaskin]

One more question - where can one find the FC-Datalogit software? Seems Apex'i only gives this out to their certified shops?

The PFC Command looks pretty weak - can you even tune well with that thing? The screen is only about the size of an S-AFC...

The FC commander is weak It's really only good for making quick changes.

The FC-Datalogit software is aftermarket stuff developed by some guys in New Zealand iirc. Lets you control the pfc via a laptop, as well as datalog from it.

The official site is http://www.fc-datalogit.co.nz, and I believe http://www.rx7.com is a US distributor for the software/hardware.

~matt

[Def]

Good info! This does make the PFC seem pretty attractive over the whole ROM burning routine.

[maik21]

hey.. this hardware and software(http://www.zcontrol.net) work into my 240sx 90 ? im running the stock motor (ka24e)