Poor handling with winter tires

[gap]

I just installed 4 Toyo "Observe G-02 plus" in a 225/60R17 size on steel rims. The dealer had to use different lug nuts with the steel rims for some reason (orig. lug nuts did not fit properly with winter rims).

I can't help but notice a huge difference in the ride. Sloppy handling with poor sway control. Has anyone noticed this before? I have used winter tires on other vehicles in the past but never noticed such a difference than with my EX.

I keep hearing about a better sway bar available, would this help with my issue?

Thanks,

Guido

[AWGD8]

Just so you know, steel rims are very heavy than your stock rims. Add a soft rubber compound like a snow tires and a bit higher center of gravity carplus, driving it like you have a hardcore summer tires will really disappoint you...

I have a summer rims/tires (original Michelin and a 17.5 Ibs Rim) removed yesterday for winter prep. I then installed my Stock 17" rims with Michelin Xice Xi2 and I could really feel the difference. The car is not as responsive like it used to be, and it`s a bit loose on turns (not heavy turn). I feel like a granny again with this sets of rim/tires combo. But what the heck, It gives me time to learn to drive smoothly again and a bit slowly on turn, just in case a blizzard hit us here. By the way, the Michelin Xi2 is very quiet and doesn`t wear out faster than some winter tires for the same price....The negative side is, I always forgot that I have a winter tires and drive it lika a maniac...

[BrokenTiller]

That's part of the winter trade off with winter tires. There is a good news theme to this story though...Every spring, when you put your summer wheels back on, it's like driving a new sports car again!

[gap]

Thanks for the feedback. Its pretty bad when my wife says it doesnt handle well.

Its going to be a long winter!

[JCL622]

Thanks for the feedback. Its pretty bad when my wife says it doesnt handle well.

Its going to be a long winter!

have you ever driven in snow tires before? it takes a bit of getting used to. also snow tires with different load ratings will give you different feedback. its wacky as hell and doesn't make sense on paper to me, but snow tires on my 335 vs snow tires on my TL already had a significant difference. Then compared to a snow tire equipped Q5 on my gf's car and it was just totally not even in the same field.... i have my snow tires but not mounting them until the temperature in NY calls for it....i'm ENJOYING 50+ temps in NY at the end of Nov

[gap]

I have had winter tires on other cars but never really noticed a significant change. I have usually driven trucks and mini vans in the past which problably had poor handling at the best of times.

The temperature dipped below freezing the other night and the car seemed to handle a bit better (maybe I'm just getting used to it?)

Thanks for the reply's, 5 months to spring and counting.

Guido

[Obsidian EX]

I've got the same tires, just mounted on winter alloys, rather than steel wheels (I presume you got these as the winter tire package from TG?). The car arrived with them on, but I didn't notice any poor handling or lack of performance for my first winter.

When I installed the summer tires, I did notice a reduction in road noice. To be honest, I didn't notice an increase in performance. I guess I mustn't be driving at the limit!

I guarantee that you will notice a "performance" difference come Jan/Feb in the middle of a snow storm! Your performance will be much improved over the stocks that came with the car!!!!
Modified by Obsidian EX at 11:38 AM 12/2/2009

[zozoka1212]

There are few trade off using winter tires. Road noise and handling is one the braking is another.

Snow tires are great in snow. Not so much in wet and dry cold weather.

Here is a good reading for you. Compared winter tires vs all season tires in snow,wet,dry at 23 degrees. 0-60, 30-0 cornering. Some rreally interesting numbers.

http://www.caranddriver.com/fe...age_7

[AWGD8]

Had a 30 mile commute last night in a mild blizzard. This time it was a wet snow. I was driving around 45-50mph on the interstate using the Xi2. My last winter experience with this tire on the interstate was superb! pretty much around 60mph with no problem at all. (I kept my distance also).Last night was different, due to a different type of snow that fell. Last night was a heavy wind mixed with snow and 10% rain...So the the slush was heavy and I couldn`t attempt to drive past 50mph bec. when I hit the slush the car tend to steer itself a bit sideways. The only thing that kept my car straight on that speed was stability control kicking in. I was also driving on the slower lane (pretty low traffic last night).

Also, I played around when turning bec. last year experienced when I entered the turn to early and a bit fast, I ended up hitting a bunk off snow due to understeer. This time I entered the turn a bit late and try to see if it will oversteer, but wow! it didn`t, i could feel the VSD kicked in in a fraction of sec... I think oversteer is recoverable in this car than understeer.

[jmess]

If the EX hand a hand operated parking brake you could pull on it to get the rear end to rotate. This is a point where a well trained driver is smarter than a computer.

[ramprun]

i had a different experience when turning corner than what you had. i had to drive on ton of snow on the ground because we had a blizzard yesterday. about 1 foot of snow accumulated on the ground. my car rear end broke loose and i felt no understeer. the dash was flashing icon for slippery road.

[AWGD8]

i had a different experience when turning corner than what you had. i had to drive on ton of snow on the ground because we had a blizzard yesterday. about 1 foot of snow accumulated on the ground. my car rear end broke loose and i felt no understeer. the dash was flashing icon for slippery road.

I think it all depends on how early or late you make the turn and the speed during the turn.... All I know is , if your rear end get loose, you can just release the gas if too much or gas it when the car is now parallel to the road your heading or let the nanny do it`s job. (acceleration or gas pedal deactivated in a fraction of sec `till the car is straight, then you gas it...)Most of the time we overreact and steer to much to the other direction, so we end up loosing control. With understeer, all you need is hold on to your dear life!!! I don`t think there is a way to recover from it, except slow down before the turn...either way It`s good to know how the ex35 reacts to these.....

Is it more expensive to fix a front bumper side and a front quarter panel ?(understeer)

or the side of the car that might include the rear quarter panel and rear side bumper? (oversteer)

I guess the only way to remember which is which is :

Understeer - The "s***" your hitting appears in the front windshield view.

Whereas, Oversteer = The "s***" appears on the sideview mirror

Guys, this is really optional

This is just based on my experienced with the EX35 AWD. Some cars reacts differently...


Modified by AWGD8 at 12:21 PM 12/9/2009

[To Infiniti and Beyond]

I just installed 4 Toyo "Observe G-02 plus" in a 225/60R17 size on steel rims. The dealer had to use different lug nuts with the steel rims for some reason (orig. lug nuts did not fit properly with winter rims).

I can't help but notice a huge difference in the ride. Sloppy handling with poor sway control. Has anyone noticed this before? I have used winter tires on other vehicles in the past but never noticed such a difference than with my EX.

I keep hearing about a better sway bar available, would this help with my issue?

Thanks,

Guido

HELP!!!! I just picked up my EX35 on Monday and ordered snows yesterday -- today we had a blizzard. Two Infiniti dealers recommended the Toyo tires with steel rims - at a higher cost than my tire guy. I'm to get them put on Thursday and now wonder if this will be at $1300 mistake. Any thoughts??? Summer tires are Dunlap SP 7000 sports 225 55 R18's and they slipped like the d!ck on a light dusting of snow.

[AWGD8]

You can get a nice set of rims at

http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/home.do

Get a Michelin Xice Xi2. At $1300 you can have them both installed(tires/wheels).

The only problem is if the tire sensor will fit on the new rims?

Are you planning to keep the tire sensor on the stock tire/wheel? (Summer tires)

And have a winter tire/rims with no sensor at all, which will give you a

warning TPMS light on all the time on your dash...

Most nice winter tires might be hard to find nowadays, you might find one

with a jacked up price....

[To Infiniti and Beyond]

Thanks for the reply. Explain about the tire sensors? I've read on this forum that you can just cover up the dashboard light with a piece of electrical tape. But I didn't know you could take the sensors off the summer alloy rims...

I'm in Canada, so buying tires in the US means added duty, taxes and shipping.

I'm hoping someone with Canadian snow experience will answer my question soon. I really don't want to use tires that don't stick. I'm going from an Xterra with winter tires to the EX35.....and was hoping it would not be a real shock because of the awd.

[BrokenTiller]

I lived in Ottawa for 12 yrs > you will love the EX with winter tires!

The higher price for the steel rim/Toyo combo might be because the dealer is including the TPMS sensors??? Expect them to add about $100/wheel to the cost.

I got alloy Spyn rims from my dealer (downsized to 17 inch) when I leased my EX a year ago with Bridgestone Blizzaks. Capital cost was ~$1500 CDN that was buried into the lease cost. (Note: this was without the TPMS sensors. It surprised me that an Infiinti dealer would sell an extra set of wheels with a brand new car and not include TPMS). After an annoying first winter with the yellow warning lamp, I have put a small circle of electrical tape this season over the light. Works great!

I get the extra set of wheels with most of my car leases. Get a second set of wheels into the deal and after 36 or 48mths, the tires are done but the depreciation you paid for in the lease cost is only about 50%. Usually the leasing company doesn't care about the extra wheels at lease termination and you are free to reuse them or sell privately. Also, besides the obvious safety and performance benefits of the winter tires, it extends the life of the summer tires as they get less mileage. Your mileage may vary ;-)

[gap]

I can report that the EX handled very well. Here in Ottawa Canada we had almost 8" of snow with a ice base. I did however question every slip and shift in my first drive to work in the morning. Call it bad nerves or lack of faith, I will say that as I got used to the way the awd and anti-slip works I started to trust the cars handling.

Toyo tires had supreme grip on take off and plowed through the thick stuff great.

Will I regret not putting alloy rims?... probably, for the weight and style aspects alone. I heard that alloy rims do pit when exposed to salt so the style may be tarnished in time.

snow...bring it on. Guido

[yutpeckc]

I've recently installed winter tires on my EX35 as well. However, I didn't get steel wheels, I just replaced my All Seasons tires with the Winter Tires and I didn't really notice a big difference in the handling. It drives almost the same to me. However, the one thing i definately noticed is the poor fuel economy.

[EX35-ABC]

Hi, I am new to Infiniti. Just got my 2010 EX35 (Journey) 2 months ago. Been loving it so far.

Wanna hear from fellow Canadians, if possible those in Richmond Hill or Markham Ontario. Reason is yesterday's (Sunday Jan3) "minor" snow storm (I say minor because it would pale in comparison to Ottawa), -12C and quite slushy, but not deep snow, and the road beneath is bare, ie: no snow base buildup. Yet, I was slip sliding away as if I had bald tires! These tires came with the car, 225/60R17 Michelin Latitude Tour HP, supposed to be all-weather. But on a straight road, Bayville Ave, road's been ploughed but still slushy but as I said not crazy slushy, maybe inch or 2, I was barely going 45-50KM, just giving it enough gas to maintain speed, yet I felt the rear swaying to the side, had I not ease off, I definitely would have done a donut right there on Bayville. Even slowly turning a corner, I felt very little to no traction, the sway light turns on, but the car would not do any correction. Then a few more times, even on the 407, till I decided to go home before I kill myself. I pushed the "Snow" button on, and it helped just slightly, but I am not driving through thick snow, so I shouldn't need to turn the "Snow" button on, correct?

I have been driving for 30years in Canada, no stranger to this type of conditions, but I was shocked to witness this car's behaviour on just a little bit of snow.

So, my questions are:A) Did anybody else with a 2010 EX35 experience this yesterday with their Michelin factory tires?

B) I am wondering if I indeed have AllWD or RearWD? Because it sure didn't feel like AWD. After reading some of the threads here I understand more about the Intelligent AWD, but I seriously did not feel it trying to correct any of the swaying, it felt like RearWD with summer tires. I see the AWD indicator when I start the car, so I guess it "should" be an AWD instead of RWD, but how do I really check?

C) Are these Michelin tires inferior to the Dunlops from the previous year's EX35?

D) I'm assuming that snow tires is a must for this car, n'est pas? If so, would I solve this problem? Or is there something wrong with the car? If snow tires, any recommendations? I've read some of you have Xice Xi2? Toyo? Believe it or not, in 30yrs I've never had to buy snow tires in Toronto. Now I feel I have to, since the Ottawa guys seem to be having no problems with snows on.

Your help is appreciated. Thanks.

[techwin]

I have a 2009 EX with the dunlops in Kitchener and I find it to be perfectly fine with the weather we've had so far. We had some thick snow back in early december and it handled well for me. Previously I drove a G35 with snows so maybe my past experience compared to the EX makes the EX seem much better but I don't think I'll be bothering with snows and will just keep my dunlops on.

[To Infiniti and Beyond]

Get yourself a set of good snows and rims! Your description of driving through yesterday's slush and snow in Toronto sounds like my experience when I picked up my EX35 in middle December! It snowed here in Ottawa - the first snow of the season - the day before I picked up my new tires. Driving on the highway was slippery and getting out of my driveway a real challenge. Same feeling as you describe driving up Bayview Ave...(know it well, especially the 404 and Elgin Mills in a snow storm or fog)... slam on the brakes and it's not pleasant...not to mention the side sliding, and out-of-control feeling. My summer tires are 18" Dunlops on alloy wheels.

We've had quite the dump of snow here over the holidays- and yesterday was really nasty as visability was not great plus it just kept coming down. At no point did I feel unsteady or unsure on either the 416 or the main roads. I am a very cautious driver and did swear that those idiots without snows trying to speed past me though. The side streets here are very narrow with ruts and I am just getting the hang of squeezing by the parked cars. My winter tires are Toyo's on 17" steel rims. Got them through Commercial Tire $500 cheaper than my dealer (who didn't offer steel rims) and $300 cheaper than the Infiniti dealer that did offer steel rims!

My EX35 is replacing my 2000 X-terra, which I have kept with winter tires and rims for those bad weather days. The X-terra plows through just about anything in 4 wheel drive with those babies. And yes - I am cautious with it too!

I have to keep reminding myself that the EX35 is not the X-terra....it is AWD not 4 wheel drive and to drive accordingly. The EX35 is not a truck - and the smooth luxurious ride lets me forget that I am not driving the truck. But so far, I am getting used to the handling.

BTW - I learned to drive on the Don Valley parking lot and even my mom's 1974 Vega had at least rear winter tires on it back then. However, even with the nasty weather in TO lately, none of my family has put on snows. Go figure. I won't drive a car now without snows....especially my EX35.

Since I didn't have more than a day to drive my new car with its summer tires, I hope I am not in for a surprise in the spring when it starts raining. Will I need to buy new summer tires then?????

[Giz2]

I have qty 4 Toyo Observe G-02 winter tires and I have to say my experience thus far is the same as EX35-ABC with his all seasons. I am not sure if it is the EX35 or the Toyo tires but I am very, very disappointed. Granted I drove a Toyota 4Runner with Michelin XIce tires before this but the performance of the EX35 with Toyo is absolutely horrible compared to the 4Runner (approx 700 lbs difference between the two, but 4Runner also had much wider tires, wide != good for snow). I live north of Ottawa Ontario (Chelsea Qc) and around home (fresh snow) the car isn't too bad but in the greasy stuff (brown @ just below freezing in the city) it feels like I have 0 control. I am hoping it is just the tires that suck as then I will switch them and dump them.Before I get flamed I realize the brown just below 0 snow is very tricky to get any grip but the 4Runner with Michelin XIce was light years better....also I had to drive my father in-law's Chevy ?? car with all seasons this past weekend it is was much more solid.I assume this means the Toyo's suck? Feedback welcome.

[To Infiniti and Beyond]

Funny you should find that Giz2....I too have the Toyo's, which both 417, Tony Graham and Commercial Tire recommended. Thought that they were just great until this afternoon. No falling snow but cold. Drove down the snowy side street to the 416 onramp as usual. Powered up the ramp with the usual delay then varoom....only this time the car felt like it was sliding on ice sideways. The road was damp but clean and it felt like the tires were not sucking the roadway as they usually do. No sidewinds that I could tell (the Xterra was bad on side winds). Really made me feel unsafe. Didn't feel better until I hit 417/174 split with drier pavement.

Could this be the lower temperatures? I've got maximum 200 km on these tires so wear can be an issue. It's not that sub-zero cold out today. These tire work wonders on snow and snow packed slush. Maybe its just cold bare pavement that is the issue here.

Anyone else?

[gap]

It's funny to see the different issues we all have with the handling of this car in the different climates. When I first posted my issue, it was mostly the handling on the mild dry roads.

I find that the car's AWD system definitely works fine, it does take some time to get used to it. I drive quite aggressively and I constantly see the "yellow anti-slip icon" on the dash when it needs it. I do find that in my driveway (country style mile long driveway) going slowly through the deeper snow, I seem to loose the confidence that it will get through it (it always has so far, so I'm sure it always will).

I thought I read somewhere that the EX has the intelligent AWD system that will kick in it need it but would only do this under 12mph? I have been going just over 20mph and when I give'er the anti slip icon shows up and i remain straight as an arrow.

Today I drive with more confidence that when I first got it. When I drove on the first snow fall I remember telling my wife that the car really sucks in the snow (even with the Toyo's on it) but now we take this car as the main vehicle when traveling with the family. Just took a little faith and a bit of getting use to it.

Bring it on..

[ramprun]

i believe when the car is traveling under 12mph, the rear receives 75% and the front receives 25% of the power. when you passed 12mph, the power goes to the rear 100% and will distribute 50% of the power to the front when slip is detected.

[EX35-ABC]

Thanks for all you guys for responding. I am learning a lot about snow tires. But I am still un-decided on which ones to get. Luckily since Jan3 we've not had any more snow in Toronto. But I hear that there has been much more snow in Ottawa and Montreal.

How has your EX been handling in the snow/slush/ice out there? and with which snow tires?

My EX is the 2010 journey, so P225/60R17, right now I am thinking:1) Blizzak WS602) Michelin Xi23) Yokohama iG20

Comments?

Also, did you guys get TPMS put in? if not, how annoying is the warning light? if yes, did you get them from the dealership?

Thanks.

[To Infiniti and Beyond]

I didn't have the TPMS put on the winter tires and rims ......and quite frankly, I don't even notice the tiny, little yellow emblem on the dash. Maybe because the Xterra had ABS and Service Engine Soon lights on most of the time! lol

I am finding the Toyo's to be okay - not the same as the Xterra snows - but doing okay in the brown slush now. My major issue seems to be the blind spots that the EX35 has, and I am not getting used to them. Backing up is always a chore - even with the backup camera because I don't trust it - and I find the driver's side headrest gets in my line of sight too much. I've taken off the rear seat headrests, which helps.

Anyone else having trouble with the blind spots?

[jmess]

I spent a lot of time driving a Honda Van so the EX side mirror transition wasn't much of an event for me. The AVM cameras really help with low speed front and back stuff.

[Obsidian EX]

This is my second winter with Toyo Observe G-02 plus, and they are fine. I moved from a Subaru TS with Arctic Alpines, so the handling was a little different, but no issues with the Toyos on the EX. My only issue was training my wife not to gun the gas, as the EX is a lot more responsive than the Subi.

I didn't get the TPMS moved over, as I have a dedicated set of winter rims. To be honest, the light really doesn't bother me. It's like background noice, after a while you don't notice it.

The list you are chosing from looks fine, and I think any of the 3 would serve you well.