please help with crank bolt removal

[ATpossible]

guys i've been trying to remove my crank bolt and i have another thread previously that asked about size but now im all out of ideas to get this damn bolt off!!!!

i looked back at FSM again and on the page that has a pic of every part that is coming off, and the name, and each bolt and torque settings for bolts etc ..., it has a (point 3) next to the crank bolt. this is the page that is always before the remove and install pages of that particular section.

this is what point 3 said... "use a pulley puller (steering wheel pullere) to remove crank pulley. [bolt size M6 x 1.0, length below head approx. 50 mm (1.97in.)]

that was it! then it jus moved on to the covers, then next part etc etc....

but that only says pulley, not crank bolt. does this tool some how take off the pulley AND bolt?

if not how do i get this bolt off? any help and info would be so appreciate by me as i always am when you guys help me out.

fyi i reconnected transmission

[AZhitman]

Impact wrench - Pops it right off.

[ATpossible]

well what about keeping it from turning?

hopefully the impact wrench solves the turning prob but it still leaves my "keeping it from turning prob"

any suggestions there?

[s13point5]

my impact wrench popped it off without holding anything from turning. what i use to do before i got my compressor on my hondas (crank pulley bolts torqued to 130 ft lbs) was jam the flywheel with a screwdriver and used a cheater bar over a breaker bar to break the crank pulley bolt loose

[AZhitman]

If it turns that easily, you have bigger problems.

Crank up the power on the impact, and hit it in quick bursts...shouldn't turn the crank at all.

[FriedEGs]

Just have an assistant hold the crank pulley with two hands.. maybe use gloves.. but, anyone with a little muscle will be able to hold it to allow the gun to "hammer" it without forcing it to spin. Even at 130 ft lbs.

Worse case scenario, use the old rope into the spark plug hole trick. Fish about 6 feet of rope into the spark plug hole, right before the crank hits top dead center (ON THE COMPRESSION STROKE!!) and the rope will press against the head/valves and against the piston, safely..... Use your 1/2 inch breaker bar, and your 3 foot jack handle.. Just make sure you don't end up more than a few degrees past TDC before it opens, otherwise, you'll need to fish more rope into the hole..

I got a crank bolt off of an E30 BMW which if anyone knows, they are factory torqued to about 320 ft lbs.

Good luck!

[Shocker]

lmao dont put a ****ing rope in your spark plug hole..

If the motor is on the stand, place one of the flywheel bolts in at the rear. Get a long straight bar. I used a 24" extension for a ratchet. Put the extension down between the flywheel bolt and two of the 4 supports that are holding your motor up turn the crank and it will pin itself allowing you to loosen/torque it back down.

[ATpossible]

If it turns that easily, you have bigger problems.

Crank up the power on the impact, and hit it in quick bursts...shouldn't turn the crank at all.

probs? isnt the crank suppose to turn?

i'm trying the impact wrench right now and no luck i have it as fast as it goes but still no luck

what kind of impact where u guys using? i swear this thing is really on there ill try with the impact wrench again

thank u all for your suggestions and i will try them all starting with the first and working my way down this list. i hope i get it out way before shocker's post.

thanks again so much guys. this is my first time taking off a crank bolt and it is becoming more of a prob than i wanted it to be.

thanks once again and i promise to give back as much as possible when this is all done

[Darius]

Is the motor on the stand or in the car? If it is on the stand, you can take a closed end wrench, put it on one of the flywheel bolts and get it to lever against the flywheel from turning clockwise.

If it is in the car, put it in 5th gear and then try to undo the crank pulley with the impact wrench. If the impact wrench doesn't work, put the socket on a 1/2" drive wrench and use a sledge to smack the end of the wrench CCW. That is usually what gets my tough-to-loosen bolts off.

Try to shoot as much penetrating oil as you can into the crank snout area. It will help loosen things up.

[ATpossible]

ok this will sound like such a stupid question but if im looking at the crank bolt, do i turn it clockwise or counterclockwise?

i know right always tightens but is it reversed? should i be turning it clockwise? the same direction the engine turns or opposite like all bolts? ive been turning it counterclockwise.

i was told all engines turns clockwise when u r looking at them from the front.

sorry for asking but i feel like i have to be doing something wrong that im not thinking of. this is getting ridiculous.

fyi ive tried impact wrench but no luck then i tried dual breakerbars (1 on crank and other on transmission bolt) and no luck, but i have nothing to keep flywheel from turning so next thing im going to try is rope in spark plug.

[Darius]

Lefty-loosey.

[RB_Dreamin]

i know we all gotta start somewhere when it comes to learning about working on cars, but damn...

zap it with a gun that isnt powered by a 2 gallon compressor or use a breaker bar and find a creative way to keep the flywheel still.

[FriedEGs]

lmao dont put a ****ing rope in your spark plug hole..

If the motor is on the stand, place one of the flywheel bolts in at the rear. Get a long straight bar. I used a 24" extension for a ratchet. Put the extension down between the flywheel bolt and two of the 4 supports that are holding your motor up turn the crank and it will pin itself allowing you to loosen/torque it back down.

What is there to laugh about?! Are you really that ignorant or stupid?! Anyway, try reading the first post again.. specifically the last sentence..."the transmission is attached.."

to the author.. just do what I explained above... it's fool proof and takes only 10 minutes to stuff a good 6 feet of rope in... then pull the rope out when you're done... Think about it!! Then you can move on and finish your project...

the shocker dude has no idea what he's talking about if he thinks there is something wrong with what I suggested..(or he just lacks experience..) There is no risk of damage if you know what you're doing... Like I said.. with my BMW, It turned the crank bolt right open with ease with a 3 foot bar on the end of the wrench. (E30 crank bolt is torqued to 300+ ft lbs.)

But, hey, what do I know?! I stuffed a rope into the spark plug whole to hold the crank in place.. is it wrong to be smart and a little creative to get a job done? lol...

[Shocker]

Sorry Egg's definitally sounds like a rig job, like the guy who put a sock over his oil cap because he dropped it under his car.....

If the transmission is still attached all he needs to do is put it in 5th gear assuming the drive shaft is hooked up.

And Ignorant no. When you say rope into the cylinder head all I can think of is some if it getting cut off or something and ending up in there... now how bad would that suck. Not to mention the force your putting onto the piston head preventing it from moving.

If it worked for you great, just not a way Id' remove a crank pulley bolt...

[ATpossible]

i tried the rope thing cuz my auto teacher had suggested the same thing on wed but i was a little unsure since i didnt think a rope could keep it from turning.

well it ended up not working and cut the rope towards the end and shredded some further down the line as well.

i guess i did it wrong. the rope was pretty flexable/compressable too so i figured that might have something to do with my failure.

i tried 5 gear trick too but it just turned with crank so idk if i put the transmission back in right but i dont see how it could not if when turning the crank, the transmission end turns too.

i ended hearing a pop noise when i had my cuz turn the big transmission bolt (30mm like crank) oppsite the crank bolt while i was tryin to unsrew bolt. i thought i had it coming off but still wont and now the transmission bolt can stay still while the crank turns if i put some force. no where near as much before the pop. does that make sense?

now im scared i messed something up. i hope i just didnt have transmission it in right or something minor like not enough contact for the force we were putting on it.

i took transmission off again and removed head again as well.

oh last way we tried was one breaker bar 25" on crank with a metal bar through flywheel setup to keep from turning but we just end up lifting the whole damn engine and when we tried going down it makes the engine til.

i bought a engine stand with some wd-40 and i just pray tomorrow is a better day.sorry rb_dreamin but after the days ive had with this bolt u start wondering about dumb stuff like am i even turning the right way. everyone here makes it seem like it was so easy and just comes off but i've been trying.

thanks again everyone for support

[AZhitman]

Where's Kamin? He's in Tucson, drop him $20 and see if he'll come over and look at it....

[ATpossible]

thought about it but i didnt wanna bother him and i dont have his email anymore. believe me when i say i asked for help and advice from him like 3 times on computer and 2 in person.

im sure he gets this a lot so i didnt wanna be a burden maybe ill stop by densetu and/or call ultra to ask him.

hope i get it before bothering him and everyone else.

thanks azhitman

[FriedEGs]

Sorry Egg's definitally sounds like a rig job, like the guy who put a sock over his oil cap because he dropped it under his car.....

If the transmission is still attached all he needs to do is put it in 5th gear assuming the drive shaft is hooked up.

And Ignorant no. When you say rope into the cylinder head all I can think of is some if it getting cut off or something and ending up in there... now how bad would that suck. Not to mention the force your putting onto the piston head preventing it from moving.

If it worked for you great, just not a way Id' remove a crank pulley bolt...

sock over an oil cap?! i dunno what that's about..... two totally different things bro.. if you know how a standard 4 stroke engine works, you'd prolly understand a little better what I'm talking aboutt..(these practices are held at any shop with people that are intuitive and experienced.) there's very little chance to snag any part of the rope inside teh cylinder when teh valves are closed.. the idea is to coil teh rope inside, which is very easy to do... if there's any doubt, use a rope that's coated with a protectant to prevent any random strands from getting in there.... plus, if you somehow get a small strand in there, and you can't get it out, the worse that will happen is that you'll just burn it off.. but, i've done this trick on 2 different motors.. one with a spark plug hole on top, and one on the side at a 45 degree angle.. I had no problems... just a crank bolt loosened up!!

anway, i just looked at my rb25det, and you should be able to go down through the top and coil the rope in there.. 6-8 feet worth, right before tdc... keep trying, it'll work!! believe me, it'll hold the piston with no problem, that's why I'm saying to use a 6-8 feet... just keep feedig it in there, so that when they the pulley is only 5-10 degrees from TDC you'll feel the pressure, and it will hold.. if it goes past TDC and the bolt isn't lose, back it up, and add more rope... Keep trying, and don't give up! Use your head and you'll get past it...

There is absolutely no way you'll cause any damage.. it's a rope against metal.... it's not like the pressure will cause a rod bearing to get damaged or something... standard compression from combustion is greatere force put on the piston, especially at 7000 rpms a minute.... and the force exerted on a piston/bearings from detonation (preignition) is far more than what this rope will do....... the first thing that will give way is a bolt that's torqued at 130 ft lbs....

[FriedEGs]

Sorry Egg's definitally sounds like a rig job,

sounds like a rig job?! You're not thinking clearly. Do some critical thinking about it... give me one reasonable explanation as to why it's not a practical method?

(unless you neglect do this on teh compression stroke, which would end up on the exhaust stroke when the valves are open)

[Shocker]

sounds like a rig job?! You're not thinking clearly. Do some critical thinking about it... give me one reasonable explanation as to why it's not a practical method?

(unless you neglect do this on teh compression stroke, which would end up on the exhaust stroke when the valves are open)

Once again, I know exactly what your talking about as to how it works. Take in mind the question being asked in this thread.... Then think about what would happen if he got it on the exhaust stroke... That would completely suck.

There are other methods into getting the bolt off, maybe as a last resort.

AtPossible, ok since your flywheel is exposed now. get a crow bar stick the pointed side for removing nails into the teeth of your flywheel, and pin the bar on the ground, so when you rotate the assembly the flywheel puts tension into the bar, and prevents the motor from turning over. Make sure you get a friend to hold the bar for you so it doesn't slide.

You could have done this with the transmission still on, all it would have take was you to slide the driveshaft on, then gotten a peice of steel or something strong that would fit, slip it through the U joint on the DS yoke, it woulda pinned itself against the car as you turned it....

Try that 1st idea and see how it goes.

[Bluefire]

if its on a stand now it should be cake. You can use a pry bar to wedge between the stand itself and flywheel. Also get a longer breaker bar. I have a 3 ft long snap on breaker bar which takes off 99% of stubborn bolts. If not you can still make it longer by adding a length of pipe.

As a last resort, take a torch to the bolts and heat that sucker up nice and hot. with mapp gas i'd probably heat it for a good 10 min+

[FriedEGs]

Once again, I know exactly what your talking about as to how it works. Take in mind the question being asked in this thread.... Then think about what would happen if he got it on the exhaust stroke... That would completely suck.

There are other methods into getting the bolt off, maybe as a last resort.

AtPossible, ok since your flywheel is exposed now. get a crow bar stick the pointed side for removing nails into the teeth of your flywheel, and pin the bar on the ground, so when you rotate the assembly the flywheel puts tension into the bar, and prevents the motor from turning over. Make sure you get a friend to hold the bar for you so it doesn't slide.

You could have done this with the transmission still on, all it would have take was you to slide the driveshaft on, then gotten a peice of steel or something strong that would fit, slip it through the U joint on the DS yoke, it woulda pinned itself against the car as you turned it....

Try that 1st idea and see how it goes.

lol.. think man... you only turn it 5 degree's at most... NO MORE! the exhaust stroke is a whole revolution of the crank.. whatever, i tried to help....if the author knows how an engine works, than he'd realize how much better this is than jamming tools against the teeth of the flywheel, or heating up the crank bolt. You'd have to really heat that thing up a lot for it to be effective, and at those temps, you risk melting the front main seal..

click on this thread....

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine1.htm

pay attention to what I'm saying.. move the piston up just before it hits TDC on the Compression stroke. Coil the rope in there until it stuffs the cylinder full..... Then turn the crank about 5 degree's more to get it up to TDC.. you should be moving the wrench from about 2 'o clock to the 12 'o clock postion. It's simple, effective, and safe!!! Like I said, you'd be done by now....

I realize some of you guys may not have a complete knowledge of how standard 4 stroke motors work, but if you chose to learn and understand completely, you'd be comfortable doing things that seem out of the norm...

even your auto teacher suggested the same thing.

[FriedEGs]

Alright, i painted a picture for you guys... (i'm no picasso)

pay attention to the fact that you only move the wrench 20-45 degrees +/- a few degrees..

We all know the valves will stay closed on the compression stroke until it hits BDC. At that point, the valves will open alternately from the start of BDC back to TDC back BDC on the Exhaust stroke, only!! in order to get to that point, you'd have to move your wrench a full 360 degrees. (again, do not turn the wrench that far)... we are only working with the compression stroke, turning the wrench no more than 45-50 degrees, or a quarter turn, and NOT a full rotation (360) into the exhaust stroke.

Again, to create enough pressure for the rope to hold, you only need to move the wrench about 40-45 degrees.. (we are only working on the compression stroke)

study the picture.. if you have any questions, feel free to pm me, or even call me.. i'm very patient and helpful...

Thanks...

[Bluefire]

Why are ppl arguing about this... just don't put any foreign objects in the cylinders... maybe it was a trick used back in the day... but there is no reason to risk getting debris in the cylinders

[Shocker]

Why are ppl arguing about this... just don't put any foreign objects in the cylinders... maybe it was a trick used back in the day... but there is no reason to risk getting debris in the cylinders

ty..... Not something I'd do.

good drawing too.

heres my own on why its a possibility for a bad Idea IF! you do it on the Exhaust stroke....



Modified by Shocker at 8:14 PM 4/8/2007
Modified by Shocker at 8:15 PM 4/8/2007

[FriedEGs]

Yea, I knew that was what you were thinking.... but, like i said.. that's a whole 360's around on the cranks/wrench to get to that point..

so, only do this on the compression stroke, and you run zero risk.... the valve won't open until AFTER bdc moving up on the exhaust stroke.

[Shocker]

Compression stroke sure, only way id feel comfortable doing this is if my valve covers where off so I could watch the cam lobes and see where they are at....... I need visual assurance on these matters.

[FriedEGs]

Compression stroke sure, only way id feel comfortable doing this is if my valve covers where off so I could watch the cam lobes and see where they are at....... I need visual assurance on these matters.

then just take the valve cover's off...

but, you've now made it apparent that you don't know how the timing of a motor works.. You need to learn the basics of how the timing marks on the camgears represent when they are at TDC for the #1 cylinder. And you need to learn that the crank pulley has a mark that represents the TDC of the #1 cylinder that lines up with a mark on the block. Once you learn those basics, you'll understand what stroke you are on when moving towards TDC. But, if you have any doubt, just take off the valve covers and pay attention to the lobe. Do that anyway, so you gain a better understanding of when the lobes open teh valves, and when they don't. ( and the relationship between teh camgear marks, whether right side up or upside down, in relationship to teh crank pulley mark.) it's a 2:1 ratio.. crank turns 2 times for every 1 turn of the cams...

Most of this type of work we are talking about involves centering your timing based on the #1 cylinder. (one closest to the camgear/timing belt)

read through the pages of howstuffworks.com on 4 stroke engines.. that website is one of trhe greatest places to learn anything!!!


Modified by FriedEGs at 1:23 PM 4/8/2007

[FriedEGs]

Why are ppl arguing about this... just don't put any foreign objects in the cylinders... maybe it was a trick used back in the day... but there is no reason to risk getting debris in the cylinders

Sure, the big picture or thought of putting a "foreign object" into the combustion chamber might sound crazy.. epecially to someone that doesn't know much about internal combustion engines, or how they work. I'm NOT asking you to use a small chain, a metal cable or pour a batch of cement in there.. i'm talking about putting a soft rope against metal... What debris can you get in there? Use a clean rope! if you think a single strand might come off, than use a coated rope.. or let the few tiny strands that get in there burn off.... think about it!!!

but, if look past that, and understand what exactly you're doing, than you can problem solve to elminate any risk.. It's not rocket science, but, it does require you to use problem solving skills and or the mental compacity of concentrating on what you're doing.. once you learn, you'll make yourself better with teh experience, and you'll be able save time and money and get past problems like this..... i realize if you don't know exactly how a motor works, it may be difficult to think about the proper way to do this.. but, if you don't know how a motor works period, than like anyone else would tell you, you prolly shouldn't be doing a job anytime you take the belt off, leaving teh crank free from the cams. You need to understand how the timing works.

some of guys seem really uncomfortable about this..if so, than ignore this and don't leave irrelevant comments that only prove your lack of knowledge or experience.. instead, learn to get past your comfort zone to gain teh confidence you need to do this...

seems like you guys are treating the combustion chamber as some magical space that you shouldn't even touch.. lol... I'm talking about using a rope to compress against metal to hold the piston -> rod -> crank in place to allow you to turn the 27mm bolt off... it's as simple as that!!! Use that brain of yours!!
Modified by FriedEGs at 1:34 PM 4/8/2007

[Shocker]

Egg's...... I know how TDC works, otherwise the timing belt I have put on and off a few times now would have never worked. I'm simply saying this seems like way more of a hassel than the minute it takes to hold the assembly to keep the motor from turning over.

Taking off the 20 bolts that hold both of the valve covers down, removing the coil pack, spark plug, then putting a rope in the cylinder. When its way easier to do any of the listed methods I used. If it works for you great. Like I said before its something I would never do.

And I'm not going to get past the confidence level of putting a rope in my motor simply because there is no need for it if you use your brain, leave the driveshaft attached. Put the car in 5th gear and lock your ebrake. Then another half dozen methods that also get the bolt off w/o putting rope in a motor.

Im done aruging about this, think what you want as will I.

ATpossible hopefully you can get it off ok.