Please don't attack me..supercharger question.
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Florida240sx
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Please don't attack me..supercharger question.
There is a thread in gen/tech chat about it right now but I'm lost on reading it.Thinking as an alternative to turbo will supercharge so I can post pics of install.I got my IAP kit for my other.This would be going on my automatic vert. I want probably 250ish rwhp. Anything over 220 I'll be happy.I'm lost on the idea.If someone can provide me a link I'd be appreciated.There's is 3 styles isn't there?Which would be ideal. Want the low end power.This is going to be show car and just want it to be different.I don't care if I need to modify hood etc. Maybe I'm using wrong words in search button.I've read it on here about 6months ago and can't find the info I'm looking for.ThanxFound this...http://www.proficientperforman...s.php
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hannibal
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Low end power = roots type blower. The problem with a Roots is that you need to do major modification to the intake manifold. I didnt think it was posible to intercool a Roots blower, but I recently read about such a setup.
I think there are only two types. Centrifugal and roots. The link said 'screw' type was the predecesssor of Roots style. I think Roots is now considered a type of screw type, cause I often here them used interchangably.
I think there are only two types. Centrifugal and roots. The link said 'screw' type was the predecesssor of Roots style. I think Roots is now considered a type of screw type, cause I often here them used interchangably.
Re: Please don't attack me..supercharger question. (Florida240sx)
I assume you already know how superchargers work .
You "should" also know the main reason people are going turbo instead of s/c on their 240's is that there is no "kit" readily available.. therefore, either it will:
1) cost a hella lot of money to bring it to a shop to make it work2) spend a whole lot of time welding and fabricating yourself through trial and error (essentially, doing the work of one company's r&d department)
Sure, it will probably fit in the engine bay. And sure it will probably get you around 250+rwhp... BUT for the same amount of money, you can get a much better/proven turbo system OR you could get an equivalent system for much less money.
STOP TRYING TO BE DIFFERENT. hahaha.
The only real issue is money & time. And it's gonna be ALOT of money for most intensive purposes. Cool... but lots of money.
I think there are a handful of nico/zilvia/freshalloy members who have supercharged the 240, but I think they were all crazy welding/super-experienced mofo's... from what I remember of reading a year or two ago when I was considering doing either t/c or s/c.
I believe there was a guy on zilvia who supercharged an older sentra and was planning on doing so to the 240 (don't know the validity of his claim or what not - pictures were no longer available by the time I found the thread & don't know the guy personally).
You "should" also know the main reason people are going turbo instead of s/c on their 240's is that there is no "kit" readily available.. therefore, either it will:
1) cost a hella lot of money to bring it to a shop to make it work2) spend a whole lot of time welding and fabricating yourself through trial and error (essentially, doing the work of one company's r&d department)
Sure, it will probably fit in the engine bay. And sure it will probably get you around 250+rwhp... BUT for the same amount of money, you can get a much better/proven turbo system OR you could get an equivalent system for much less money.
STOP TRYING TO BE DIFFERENT. hahaha.
The only real issue is money & time. And it's gonna be ALOT of money for most intensive purposes. Cool... but lots of money.
I think there are a handful of nico/zilvia/freshalloy members who have supercharged the 240, but I think they were all crazy welding/super-experienced mofo's... from what I remember of reading a year or two ago when I was considering doing either t/c or s/c.
I believe there was a guy on zilvia who supercharged an older sentra and was planning on doing so to the 240 (don't know the validity of his claim or what not - pictures were no longer available by the time I found the thread & don't know the guy personally).
but then again.....it can also be cheaper, if somebody creates a kit as there are less parts required to do such thing.(just look at the kits for mustangs, they may be different, but those cost a lot less than a turbo setup). it can be less expensive because you don't have to do an exhaust manifold, the piping can be taken care of by a muffler shop, the bracket would be the 1 that can take time to do, as you have to factor in space and strengh.
read what i typed on that gen chat thread.and that site is quite accurate, so if you want more torque either a screw or roots type supercharger will do. the centi is just like a turbo, as rpm rise so does boost.
read what i typed on that gen chat thread.and that site is quite accurate, so if you want more torque either a screw or roots type supercharger will do. the centi is just like a turbo, as rpm rise so does boost.
Re: (WDRacing)
like I said in the other post, you could run alot more boost with a centrifical because full boost isn't until redline. That would be great for the KA since power dropes off so fast in the high RPMs!!
Chad
Chad
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Florida240sx
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Making a bracket is ease.I know about the d@m power gains.I just want a little extra pep at the low end.This isn't my race car the hatch gettign the VG is.I already stated that I'm going with IAP kit with my other hatch but I want to do this so others can refer to my setup..Yea I want roots/screw...WD My idea was to have the supercharger and water injection with it so no intercooler.So less pipe work.Any idea on which one to get? Going to grab one off e-bay.I got a set of 370cc SR's, buy another safc II, and fuel pump.Then get water injection....That's all I should need correct?
Re: Please don't attack me..supercharger question. (Florida240sx)
This is for real, I think we should contact the companies that produce supercharger kits and ask them to look into developing a kit for the KA. If they get enough inquiries about something, and they believe it is profitable, they will do it! Case in point, all the turbo kits that are avalible for the KA now. Even 5 years ago, there were few to none!
It may be better to organize here and have someone like Greg contact companies and let them know there is interest in supercharger kits for the KA. Just a suggestion.
Vortec,procharger,Jackson racing,comptech all have expirence with 4 cylinder supercharger kits!
Chad
It may be better to organize here and have someone like Greg contact companies and let them know there is interest in supercharger kits for the KA. Just a suggestion.
Vortec,procharger,Jackson racing,comptech all have expirence with 4 cylinder supercharger kits!
Chad
Re: Please don't attack me..supercharger question. (paemt6220)
Yes, that is true. But they will need more than just "inquiries" to make them want to do something. And with the way people flake in & out on groupbuys (myself included sometimes... sadly) due to whatever reason, it has to be a very well coordinated effort w/ $$$ up front.paemt6220 wrote:This is for real, I think we should contact the companies that produce supercharger kits and ask them to look into developing a kit for the KA. If they get enough inquiries about something, and they believe it is profitable, they will do it! Case in point, all the turbo kits that are avalible for the KA now. Even 5 years ago, there were few to none!
It may be better to organize here and have someone like Greg contact companies and let them know there is interest in supercharger kits for the KA. Just a suggestion.
Vortec,procharger,Jackson racing,comptech all have expirence with 4 cylinder supercharger kits!
Chad
... and then there will be the usual long delay and development problems that face these sort of adventures.
Not that it can't be done... it's just usually more work (possibly too much) than many are willing to wait and pay up front for.
By all means, though, if this goes through successfully, it would only make the 240 community that much better and diverse.
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Florida240sx
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Ubernoober
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Alright, here's the deal. There is way too much misinformation on this entire web board as regards supercharging. Lets put all this to bed right now....
Turbocharging and supercharging share the exact same principles. Turbocharging is compression of the intake charge by using the energy extracted from the exaust stream by a turbine. Supercharging is a generic term for compression of the intake charge by all other means. We all seem to pretend to know what a turbo is, so I will goss over that. Here is a list of basic "superchargers":
Roots: A true roots is a multi-lobed pair of rotors completely parallel to one another and have NO helical twist. This is basically an air pump and compression is gained through the pump rate. Purely a displacement type unit, every revolution displaces a set amount of air. Pump twice the flow rate of the engine and get a PR of 2. These units flow top to bottom and generate pulses in the airstream. Rather inefficient and by todays standards, OLD tech. Still used in those monster GM 6-71 blowers you find on old musclecars and rods. Boost is constant at a given drive ratio but nobody cares because only people who love gigantic wang extensions and chrome everything run these. I can say this because I own two musclecars and would NEVER consider using this design except on a showcar. And I DRIVE my cars. A lot.
Twisted Roots (the Eaton): A roots, but they reduced the lobes to two per rotor and put a decent helical twist on the rotors. This causes the unit to pump more front to back and dramatically increases the efficiency. The entire unit behaves more like a compressor and less like an air pump. This is still a displacement type of unit and pumps a given volume of air per revolution. Efficiency drops dramatically as outlet pressure rises. Eaton has the best design here and in fact can deliver respectable PR's. Boost is constant at a given drive ratio.
Lysholm Screw Type (Kenne Bell, Whipple et al): A true compressor, the unit still has two screws (rotors in the Eaton and Roots) , but have extreme helical twist and in fact taper from one end to the other (this gives it its compression ability) by a significant amount. Efficiency is high, but due to the design, the screws must be turned at a higher speed than a roots or Eaton to pump the same volume of air. The gear drive and screws are what you hear screaming in those 500 HP Supercharged Cobra mustangs that switched over to the Kenne Bell from the Eaton. Increased speed means increased heat though. The Kenne Bell wins over the Eaton at higher PR's though because it is a true compressor and the loss of power due to heat is easily gained back in the increased efficiency at the higher PR. Plus, nothing sounds cooler than these things when they scream at 15-20 pounds boost. Boost is constant at a given drive ratio.
Cetrifugal Compressor (Paxton, Powerdyne et al): Essentially the compressor half of a "turbo" driven by belt and gear drive. A true compressor, but since it is not displacement based revolutions have no relationship to PR developed below the compressors designed "boost threshold". Highly efficient at its designed PR and is a very compact package. Boost rises with RPM. You can set it up to reach your "maximum boost" early and then vent the rest, but you are working against its efficiency then and using it outside of its designed flow rate and boost level.
Fuel delivery, intercooling and all that other jazz are exactly the same as for a turbo setup. Let me repeat that for all the people who continue to insist on claiming supercharging is somehow different that turbocharging.
Fuel requirements are exactly the same at a given PR whether you supercharge or turbocharge or elephant charge!!!!! Ok, that last one you might want to start running.
Turbocharging and supercharging share the exact same principles. Turbocharging is compression of the intake charge by using the energy extracted from the exaust stream by a turbine. Supercharging is a generic term for compression of the intake charge by all other means. We all seem to pretend to know what a turbo is, so I will goss over that. Here is a list of basic "superchargers":
Roots: A true roots is a multi-lobed pair of rotors completely parallel to one another and have NO helical twist. This is basically an air pump and compression is gained through the pump rate. Purely a displacement type unit, every revolution displaces a set amount of air. Pump twice the flow rate of the engine and get a PR of 2. These units flow top to bottom and generate pulses in the airstream. Rather inefficient and by todays standards, OLD tech. Still used in those monster GM 6-71 blowers you find on old musclecars and rods. Boost is constant at a given drive ratio but nobody cares because only people who love gigantic wang extensions and chrome everything run these. I can say this because I own two musclecars and would NEVER consider using this design except on a showcar. And I DRIVE my cars. A lot.
Twisted Roots (the Eaton): A roots, but they reduced the lobes to two per rotor and put a decent helical twist on the rotors. This causes the unit to pump more front to back and dramatically increases the efficiency. The entire unit behaves more like a compressor and less like an air pump. This is still a displacement type of unit and pumps a given volume of air per revolution. Efficiency drops dramatically as outlet pressure rises. Eaton has the best design here and in fact can deliver respectable PR's. Boost is constant at a given drive ratio.
Lysholm Screw Type (Kenne Bell, Whipple et al): A true compressor, the unit still has two screws (rotors in the Eaton and Roots) , but have extreme helical twist and in fact taper from one end to the other (this gives it its compression ability) by a significant amount. Efficiency is high, but due to the design, the screws must be turned at a higher speed than a roots or Eaton to pump the same volume of air. The gear drive and screws are what you hear screaming in those 500 HP Supercharged Cobra mustangs that switched over to the Kenne Bell from the Eaton. Increased speed means increased heat though. The Kenne Bell wins over the Eaton at higher PR's though because it is a true compressor and the loss of power due to heat is easily gained back in the increased efficiency at the higher PR. Plus, nothing sounds cooler than these things when they scream at 15-20 pounds boost. Boost is constant at a given drive ratio.
Cetrifugal Compressor (Paxton, Powerdyne et al): Essentially the compressor half of a "turbo" driven by belt and gear drive. A true compressor, but since it is not displacement based revolutions have no relationship to PR developed below the compressors designed "boost threshold". Highly efficient at its designed PR and is a very compact package. Boost rises with RPM. You can set it up to reach your "maximum boost" early and then vent the rest, but you are working against its efficiency then and using it outside of its designed flow rate and boost level.
Fuel delivery, intercooling and all that other jazz are exactly the same as for a turbo setup. Let me repeat that for all the people who continue to insist on claiming supercharging is somehow different that turbocharging.
Fuel requirements are exactly the same at a given PR whether you supercharge or turbocharge or elephant charge!!!!! Ok, that last one you might want to start running.
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Florida240sx
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Ubernoober
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Here, I'll break this thing into two parts...
As for supercharging, choose your charger based on what you want and can afford. The units vary dramatically in price and in fact the Eaton can be found at many wrecking yards.
NO SUPERCHARGER NEEDS TO BE MOUNTED TO THE INTAKE MANIFOLD! I want to say that three times loud because everytime someone asks about supercharging, the first thing that happens is some uninformed "person" comes in and within three posts claims that the cost and difficulty of making an intake manifold ruins the entire idea. For the love of Jebus, stop it.
Intercooling a supercharged system is as easy as intercooling a turbo setup. You buy the turbo kit, mount it up, then route the outlet of the supercharger to the hot side of the intercooler kit. Viola! Done. Hell, if you mount it in place of the AC compressor, the whole adapter consists of 24 inches of pipe. Total cost, maybe $100 more than for a turbo.
Mounting the supercharger does not cost more than a turbo! Anywhere from $300-$1500 dollars can be spent on a manifold to mount the turbo. How much do you think a 12 inch piece of steel to mount a supercharger is going to cost? $2000? I think not. You will actually be cheaper than ANY turbo here. Design is the key.
Fuel system, same as for turbo.
Ignition : Same.
No costly blowoff valve, unless you insist on running a cetrifugal compressor over-boost.
No costly wastegate.
No costly downpipe.
No cooking your brake system.
No discoloring the paint on your hood. Or even worse, setting your CF hood on fire.
Any other questions? Ask away. I will offer what I can, but one thing is for sure, the KA is a great engine for boosting. Whether turbo or super, I don't care. So lets dispell the half-truths and stick to the facts please.
Anything incorrect in the above posts are entirely WD's fault. Um, really....
As for supercharging, choose your charger based on what you want and can afford. The units vary dramatically in price and in fact the Eaton can be found at many wrecking yards.
NO SUPERCHARGER NEEDS TO BE MOUNTED TO THE INTAKE MANIFOLD! I want to say that three times loud because everytime someone asks about supercharging, the first thing that happens is some uninformed "person" comes in and within three posts claims that the cost and difficulty of making an intake manifold ruins the entire idea. For the love of Jebus, stop it.
Intercooling a supercharged system is as easy as intercooling a turbo setup. You buy the turbo kit, mount it up, then route the outlet of the supercharger to the hot side of the intercooler kit. Viola! Done. Hell, if you mount it in place of the AC compressor, the whole adapter consists of 24 inches of pipe. Total cost, maybe $100 more than for a turbo.
Mounting the supercharger does not cost more than a turbo! Anywhere from $300-$1500 dollars can be spent on a manifold to mount the turbo. How much do you think a 12 inch piece of steel to mount a supercharger is going to cost? $2000? I think not. You will actually be cheaper than ANY turbo here. Design is the key.
Fuel system, same as for turbo.
Ignition : Same.
No costly blowoff valve, unless you insist on running a cetrifugal compressor over-boost.
No costly wastegate.
No costly downpipe.
No cooking your brake system.
No discoloring the paint on your hood. Or even worse, setting your CF hood on fire.
Any other questions? Ask away. I will offer what I can, but one thing is for sure, the KA is a great engine for boosting. Whether turbo or super, I don't care. So lets dispell the half-truths and stick to the facts please.
Anything incorrect in the above posts are entirely WD's fault. Um, really....
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Ubernoober
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Florida240sx
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Yup don't plan to have it up that high.Depend on how high I need to push the 370cc's which should probably be at 10psi wouldn't it.Wish I could find one here in a junkyard.Opening safe tomorrow to see how much $$$ I have left.I'm starting to nickel and dime it now.Buying 2 racing seats and some gauges tomorrow...... Also on the SC you adjust PSI by pulley size correct? Need to find an eaton now....
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Florida240sx
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...33741This would be perfect for the 240 wouldn't it?
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Nismo_Freak
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Re: (Ubernoober)
Crank pulley, belts, idlers, all need to be incorporated as well.Ubernoober wrote:Mounting the supercharger does not cost more than a turbo! Anywhere from $300-$1500 dollars can be spent on a manifold to mount the turbo. How much do you think a 12 inch piece of steel to mount a supercharger is going to cost? $2000? I think not. You will actually be cheaper than ANY turbo here. Design is the key.
Factors of production need to be high to create a difference in the price.
I think you should discuss the benefits of the supercharger as well, in terms of cam properties, and exhaust setup.
Unfortuneatly there isn't a good header made for the KA24DE that would be well adapted for a 14# Eaton setup.
I will stick to turbos, the sound of a blower is quite annoying IMO.
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Florida240sx
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From what I'm seeing.Looks like I can get a SC for $600 max.Fuel pump $100 Fuel injectors $100 sr 370cc.Plan to remove ac..Getting a pulley welded on wouldn't be a problem to keep AC $25.$200 intercooler Get SAFC $260 then make some piping say $200.$1500 to have it SC...Cost me 2600 for IAP kit and that's without injectors and safc...Plan to have all this along with hotshot header.
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Florida240sx
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Re: Please don't attack me..supercharger question. (brokeAs240sx)
thats what people said to me 2 years ago when I told them I was going to turbo my SOHC truck motor.brokeAs240sx wrote:STOP TRYING TO BE DIFFERENT
2 years later you're a big dumbass if you buy an SR.
get it?
eaton m90 supercharger, go to the big rx7 boards, there are I think 2 different people who have retrofit and have all the calculations for pulley sizing and all that.
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Nismo_Freak
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Re: Please don't attack me..supercharger question. (toki)
So the bandwagon says these days.toki wrote:2 years later you're a big dumbass if you buy an SR.
if you do another pulley to attach to the crank, check before on the measurements of the pulleys as different pulleys on either supercharger or crank can yield different psi.
if you are gettin that eaton blower, check for clearance, specially how long it is, and if it doesn't go around the header(it should work, the a/c is quite big allready).
also i think kennebell used to make a supercharger for the mazda miata, it was mounted on top of the header with some braket and couple other things, tho they seem to have removed it from their site.(i posted the link couple of months ago when another supercharger thread came up), this is just of you are lookin for a better supercharger, but i think 03-04 mustang svt cobra owners push more than 10psi on the stock superchargers which should be enough.(you can also make those a bit bigger, i believe apten ports them)
if you are gettin that eaton blower, check for clearance, specially how long it is, and if it doesn't go around the header(it should work, the a/c is quite big allready).
also i think kennebell used to make a supercharger for the mazda miata, it was mounted on top of the header with some braket and couple other things, tho they seem to have removed it from their site.(i posted the link couple of months ago when another supercharger thread came up), this is just of you are lookin for a better supercharger, but i think 03-04 mustang svt cobra owners push more than 10psi on the stock superchargers which should be enough.(you can also make those a bit bigger, i believe apten ports them)