Planning my KA24DET

[DeXteR]

If you've seen the project thread for my convertible, you'll know that it's time to rebuild my trusty, tired KA. Instead though, we're taking the blown S14 KA and rebuilding it to be a KA24DET - that's why I'm posting here.

The reason I'm starting this thread is just to discuss how I want to build it and get some feedback. The goal is to make a very reliable 350WHP that's tame for everyday street driving and then if need be, crank the boost a bit and rip some of the local F-bodies a new *******. So let's get down to business...

Shortblock:Stock block - cleaned, honed, decked, align hone the mainsStock crank - polished bearing surfacesForged rods - decided to not run the stockersForged Pistons - working on getting a set of 8.8:1 Arias pistonsClevite tri-metal main and rod bearingsBalance the rotating assemblyCrank scraper & windage trayNew oil pump and cover

Head:Stock head - milledStock valve train248 cams with "custom" re-drilled cam gearsGasket-matched and slightly polished intake and exhaust ports3-angle valve jobCometic MLS gasketARP head stud kit

Intake/Exhaust:JGS exhaust manifoldHolset turbo (leaning towards and HY35)External wastegate dumping to atmosphereN62 MAFS2.75" or 3" hot pipes - whichever matches compressor outlet betterFront-mount intercooler with inlet/outlet to match piping (size to be determined)3.5" cold pipesBOV- leaning towards modified DSM unit or aftermarket if the price is rightQ45 throttle bodyXcessive intake manifold (or maybe design & fab my own)Thermal intake manifold gasket (forgot what they're called)

Engine control and Fuel:Mega Squirt or Calum – need to investigate both options furtherWire tuckProjectSilvia top feed fuel rail440-650cc injectors (to be determined)Adjustable fuel pressure regulatorWalboro 255 fuel pumpBattery relocation

Other stuff:Oil filter relocation kitOil coolerReinstall AC systemSR20DET pulley kit conversionCrank pulleyLightweight flywheel and upgraded clutch1-piece aluminum driveshaftUpgraded plugs and wiresCatch canAluminum radiator

Right now I just need to come up with the money for pistons and rods and the shortblock stuff will be going off to the machine shop for machine work and balancing. Then it'll be off to a fellow Tri-City Evolution member's place so we can blueprint and assemble the shortblock.
Modified by DeXteR at 10:42 AM 2/18/2008

[DevilMB3017]

Sounds like a hell of a build.

One thing I think is that you should avoid the MLS head gasket unless you're going over 450-500 hp. Quite a few members here have had problems with them leaking oil and sitting right. An OEM Fel-Pro should be good for ~500 horses.

[DeXteR]

I put all of this down on paper yesterday and figured out that it's not going to be done as quickly as I had originally hoped. This stuff adds up quickly when you're looking at costs. I wanted to have this done and running in time to take it to the Buschur Sport Compact Shootout in May, but there's no way.

I've heard some of the MLS stories. My thoughts on this are that their mating surface is not to spec (between the head and block). I really like the MLS gaskets because I can remove the head without having to buy another gasket. I also like that I can crank the boost up and run 500HP without having to worry about blowing out a felt gasket.

[neverlift]

looks to be a nice build let me just say that from what I've seen on here abo m/s get it and go ahead and start figuring it out, it will save you pita's later.

IIRC it took edub months to get it working... also why the 8.8:1? you can make a fairly reliable 350 on stock comp/pistons, I do understand they are better overall but comp can be dealt with via tune...

really the motor in either config is only as solid is the tuning/fueling

[WDRacing]

Welcome to KAT, I know you're not a noob...but I don't see you post in here very often. I always enjoy following a spirited build-up. I've used the MLS type gasket on my Skyline while I was over sea's. Had no issues what-so-ever. But like you said, I had cleaned my mating surfaces and polished them to a gleam before I put the head on and started torquing. I also gave 30 minutes after the final torque for the bolts/studs and hardware to cool down. Then I would repeat the final two torque sequences. If any of the bolts/nuts moved I would repeat this process over and over until I got no movement. This is how you go about installing many helicopter parts, like the rotor head and other various flight critical components

Why go with the Holset turbo? I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I just prefer Garret or "standard" style turbo's. I have more compressor maps for those and would recommend the T3/TO4E in 50 trim with a .48AR exhaust housing. This will give you no lag and be efficient to 400ish whp. By no lag I mean, full boost by 2700 rpmish. The JGS is an excellent choice BTW, so if going with the turbo I suggested, you could use the JGS mani, turbo and down pipe combo.

As far as injectors are concerned, go big...nuff said.

The piping sizes you quoted confuse me a little. There is really no need for a Q45 TB or piping any larger then 2.5" anywhere on the car to include the exhaust if the max power goal is 350. 3 inch or bigger is the better choice for the exhaust, but it isn't a must. I speak from experience here. The stock TB and 2.5" piping on the hot and cold side is more then enough for 400whp. So you can save some money in that aspect if you so choose.

Messing with the cam timing should be fun. Are you going to do it on a dyno? Will be interesting to see what results you get with a few degree's of retard/advance.

You can get a brand new Bosch BOV for about $60 IIRC, they are recirculated types and have held 20psi for me with no leaks. Yes they look like cheap plastic garbage, but they do what they are designed for very well. Bosch doesn't make a bad product that I know of.

Just a few opinions for ya...I'll follow along as things progress.

WD

[DeXteR]

looks to be a nice build . . .

also why the 8.8:1? you can make a fairly reliable 350 on stock comp/pistons, I do understand they are better overall but comp can be dealt with via tune...

really the motor in either config is only as solid is the tuning/fueling

Thanks. I like pump gas and I don't have a lot of experience with real tuning. I'd like to keep it safe until I figure things out better. Once I have a better grasp of how my system works (either way I decide to go), I'll play around with ignition timing and boost levels.

WD, I'll answer some of your questions:

Why Holset? Because I'm in Michigan. We have so many turbo diesel pickup trucks around here, it's crazy. It's really easy to find turbos and rebuild kits and people who know how to work with them. Initial cost, parts, and labor are all very low cost.

To revist the MLS thing again, I just can't understand why people are having problems with these if they'd just do it right the first time. You have the procedure nailed down.

I all ready have the q45 throttle body - traded it to to derrick (doing the vh-swapped vert) for a pair of KA throttle bodies. I want to use it just because I have it and it allows me plenty of breathing room and some extra "wow" factor. Now to address the piping size selection: I'm just following the rule of thumb that your cold side diameter should match the throttle body and the hot side diameter should match the outlet of the compressor.

Selecting the DSM BOV was a lot like selecting the Holset turbo. I have DSM BOV's sitting around (I'm a DSM guy pretending to be a nissan guy). Unmolested 1G BOV's can be had for $25 and easily modified to reliably hold 30psi.

Thanks for the input
Modified by DeXteR at 11:27 AM 2/18/2008

[WDRacing]

Just read the "deer story", my condolances man...

I'm glad you and your wife came through fine though I also have Liability on my S14. But it's sitting with a rod through the block Perhaps I'll get Full after I get her fixed up. She went on the back burner after I had my son Dylan 6 months ago.

I'll just live vicariously through you this year

[WDRacing]

I totally understand the piping theory, always go with the same size as the TB, at least on the cold side. Never seases to amaze me when guys use huge piping and the stock TB

Holset's are cheap and good...nuff said there.

Don't be concerned with tuning...well let me rephrase that. It's fact that reducing compression and adding boost will yield more HP with octane being the limiting factor. But 9.5 is still very usable, especially when you can retard timing on boost to compensate. In the beginning, just take away more timing then you should for safety, then tweak and roll. 9.5 will yield a better daily driver and better gas mileage. As a whole, higher compression engines are more efficient. So unless you're going for huge boost, it's just something to keep in mind.

I would use the low CR pistons as well, but I don't do anything just a little bit

[DeXteR]

. . . I don't do anything just a little bit

Yeah... I tend to do the same thing. That's why I talked myself into going with the forged rods yesterday and why everything is going to be overbuilt. It's only a matter of time before I'll hear myself saying, "Man... 15psi is great, but 25 psi will be better!"

Good luck with the kid. I really need to get this car done before my baby maker starts popping them out. In the mean time, hopefully you can take some joy in my build. I'm a picture whore, so keep an eye on me.

Yeah, the deer thing is water under the bridge. **** happens.

[240 GTR]

cool stuff. i'm planning on a similar setup for my s14. maybe i'll see you around sometime

[480sx]

Apparently they have the bugs worked out for the Megasquirt on a 240. You need to use a DSM dizzy, otherwise you will have serious start up problems. Thats a pretty simple fix though, and megasquirt is great. The software is easy to use, and the 'autotune' feature is sweet. Set your map to target A/F ratios and the software does the rest.

If your going big, you want a stand alone.

About the MLS gasket - If you get the block and the heads machined, then use copper spray they will seal every time as long as you make sure after the engine heats/cools the head bolts remain at torque spec.

[DeXteR]

You need to use a DSM dizzy

DSM dizzy? You mean CAS mated to an s13 dizzy? The only DSM that used a distributor was the 1.8L 4g37 equipped ones. I've seen a CAS/dizzy thing, it looks cool! Abel does it out in Oklahoma. I've got extra a few cam angle sensors laying around, I'm sure I could score some old dizzies for cheap. I'd like to try to make it work if I can.

I still have a long ways before I need to make a final decision regarding my EMS. I have plenty of time to do research.

[DevilMB3017]

Sorry to thread jack this a little bit, but I can I get an exspansion on the copper spray technique and a suggestion for what kind of copper spray?

Thanks.

[WDRacing]

The copper spray isn't really required, but if you do choose to go that route, they sell it at Autozone and NAPA etc. Just look for copper gasket spray or ask the counter geek.

WD

[480sx]

Im not sure exactly, it might even be as simple as changing the trigger wheel out to a DSM one. I only spend a tiny amount of time on the MS forums anymore, but i caught that little bit of info last time i was there. From what i gathered though the whole dizzy just bolts up to the Ka's timing cover. Sounds kinda ridiculous, im not sure if i got my info right now but thats what i have in my head. Your probably right about it just being the CAS however, that makes way more sense.

I do know however that guys are able to run MS2(which is the sht) now with some minor mods. I was able to get my car running on MS2 but the startups were killing me(and my starter..).

If you do go with MS, just make sure its not your daily or make sure you have allotted some extra time to get it to work right. It takes some time to figure out the software and to wire everything up.

Why not use copper spray, a cans like 5 bucks and its just extra insurance. Beats the heck out of taking your heads off again because you didnt get it to seal the first time. Just read the directions on the back. I did 3 light coats of it until the whole gasket looked like copper. Let it dry till it was tacky and installed it, third times a charm. The first two times i didnt use copper spray and it leaked. I however did not machine the block or head..

[DeXteR]

I need to do some more research on the DSM parts with MS. MS1/2 makes no difference to me. This car wouldn't exactly be a daily driver, but I do have plenty of time to get it figured out.

I've never used the copper spray. I've seen some people use it on nearly every gasket on their motor. I've never had a problem with any leaks after a rebuild of any sort.

I'm hoping to order some pistons next week some time. I'm also waiting on that ebay guy who had those cheap forged rods... I figure it's worth a shot unless I can find some used Eagles between now and when he gets a shipment in.

Hopefully sometime in the next couple weeks, I'll not be so busy at work and can take my lunch hour to go talk to my machinist. He doesn't know what I'm scheming. I know as soon as I walk in with a block he's going to say, "More of those Mitsubishi things again?!" To which I'll reply, "Nope, gonna try Nissan this time."

[480sx]

You want the full timing control of MS2 for sure.

[WDRacing]

You want the full timing control of MS2 for sure.

Agreed.

[DeXteR]

Thanks again for the input. I know now that when it comes down to choosing EMS, I'll be comparing MS2 with Calumsult (for now).

During the last month or so, I've been contemplating what route to go with my intake manifold. My options are: use the stocker, use an after-market one, build my own, or modify the stocker.

I was pretty set on using the Xcessive intake with their Q45 TB extension. The price is good, the quality is good, and it looks pretty nice. However, after spending a lot of time searching around for dyno-results from people using the Xcessive manifold, I've found out that there really isn't anything out there showing the performance gains. My research also seems to point out that the stock manifold does really well. Most of the speculation on comparison between the two stated that torque was lost in the lower and mid-range RPM's to gain upper RPM horsepower. I can't say I'm surprised because the runner length was reduced and that will be the typical result. However, that just doesn't sound like a good trade-off to me at this point in time.

I just started a new thread requesting some dyno comparisons between the stock unit and the Xcessive one. Hopefully, we'll get some response - but I doubt it.

So in the mean time, I think I've changed my mind on the intake manifold. I'm just going to run the S14 intake manifold that I've all ready stripped and have running on the vert. I'm going to save the intake manifold for last since the general consensus is that the stocker is capable of 500hp figures. I will, however, look into maybe picking up an extra intake manifold and getting it extrude-honed. I know in the DSM world, an extrude honed stock manifold can yield significant increases in power and torque. I'll also look into making my own plenum to add to the stock runners as that seems to be a typical thing for KA-Ters to do as well. Maybe I'll do both and do some testing of my own. We'll see.

Your thoughts?

[WDRacing]

My thoughts are pretty on par with what you said man. The stock unit works as good as the after market versions for anything under 500whp. So I consider it a waste of money, unless of course you build your own with a spare just to try it out. Then you'll actually be able to see the results etc...

WD

[DeXteR]

Well, it's been a month since the last discussion on my project.

Update:I purchased a trio of used Arias pistons for a really good price. The original owner snapped a stock rod and trashed the fourth piston, so he gave me a great deal just to recover some of his cost. With my added cost of buying a fourth piston with all new rings still put me under half the price of a new set of slugs from Arias! Awesome!

Well, they came in yesterday, and they've been trashed beyond use courtesy of USPS. Of course, why would I pay for insurance? They're all happily employed government workers who take great pride in providing a valuable service to the US consumers.... not true. So now I'm chasing down postmasters to see what kind of compensation I could possibly get for my loss. I may contact the seller and argue that his packaging was poor, but that'll be a last resort.

Here's a taste of the damage:

After this pans out, I'm probably just going to buy new. This isn't the first time I've had pistons get rattled around (even when packaged well), and I'm just tired of screwing around. I love the deals I can get buying used parts or portions of peoples' aborted projects, but I'm getting fed up.

I've also decided against using the ebay H-beam rods. I just can't convince myself to do it... I keep talking myself into spending more money... I'm fairly confident that these off-brand rods would perform just fine, but I just don't want to take the chance with the amount of time and money I'm putting into this motor. Maybe I'll try them later on down the road if I rebuild again. So I'm in the market for some Eagles. Like the pistons, I'm probably just going to buy new and not worry about the hassle of looking for used and getting someone to ship them carefully.

I do have a positive to look forward to. I've found a local machine shop that can do all of the machining and balancing for me for a very reasonable price. I can drop off a shortblock in pieces and get the block bored, honed, align-hone the mains, deck the block and clean it and get the rotating assembly balanced to "race spec" for under $300! Awesome. The shop comes recommended from some of the locals and I haven't found an unsatisfied customer yet.

Lastly, with gas prices soaring and the news claiming $4/gal gasoline prices this summer, I'm seriously considering Ethanol. I need to find some time to read the E85 thread here and do some research on that as well. It seems promising and will add some more fun (ie. $pending) to the project.

Unfortunately, with big spending on internals, my project is going to get pushed back quite a bit. So don't expect another update for a while unless I get a chance to get started on my own head work. I do plan on doing a valve job and some mild porting. So maybe that will be next on my to-do list while I keep saving money. Another reason things keep getting pushed back is routine maintenance on the dailies (92 non-turbo DSM and 94 pathfinder) as well as having to do an emergency timing belt job for my in-laws' Camry. All of this while dealing with a large insurance claim because I had some pipes freeze upstairs above my kitchen back at the end of January.

Life goes on.

[WDRacing]

Ethanol should only be used for additional performance, not as a pump gas substitute do to increased gas prices. For the simple reason that E85 requires 30% more fuel to be burned to reach it's stoich point. Basically you'd be running 370cc injectors with the factory ecu.

It would be a toss up as to which will be cheaper.

If cheaper is what you want, check out propane conversions. It's not all that difficult to run both, pump and propane. Just something to check out.

WD

[DeXteR]

Ethanol prices are under $3/gal in my area right now and will probably go down as it becomes more available. That makes consuming 30% more fuel a bit more cost effective than paying over 30% more. But wouldn't that make my KA "flexable" If I go with standalone or an easily programmable ECU so I could use whatever's cheaper. Aside from that, the money stays in the US economy rather than going to countries in the Middle East and Venezuela who don't exactly have my best interests in mind... ****ing terrorists trying to blow us up and buy our country with our own money!!!

Anyways, don't want to get political.

Propane conversion is something I will look into. Now that you mention it, I do recall you saying something about it in the E85 thread as I browsed through it a few weeks back. Propane was $2.35/gal when I filled the tank in my yard back in January. I know the price goes down in the summer - which is great since that's when the vert will be driving anyway. I will look into it. Thanks.

[WDRacing]

It also goes down with bulk purchase, meaning more then the ole gas grill canister. With a pre throttle body injection unit, you could run regular ole 91 or propane. Propane being 100 octane or better and also having a cooling effect on the intake itself since it will be injected at almost freezing temps will let you run some decnt boost numbers with no need for ignition retard.

I'll do it this summer as soon as I get my 240 back up and running. If it works I'm going to market a kit.

I'm also in it to say F U to big oil my friend

[egan]

dexter!!!!!! get real engine management!!!! haha screw the intake mani. also look into cometic HG. theyre reusable too.

go e85 dude. im doing it for sure. (ended up grabbing another stock block) joes already running it. ****s sweet!

these rods are good priced i think?http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...ZWDVW

your setup is gonna be sick. i cant wait for a ride

[480sx]

Megasqurit has a flex fuel capability that you should look into if you want to run E85.

[DeXteR]

dexter!!!!!!

WTF mate?*

Out of nowhere comes this bass-boat... LOL

Define "real engine management" for me please. I've definitely decided to just run the stock intake and all ready have the Cometic. As a DSMer, I'm fully aware of the benefits of MLS. Joe's running E85? Really?

I'm currently shopping around for rods and pistons. $300 shipped seems pretty darn good for Eagles.

When the car's done, we'll have to take a ride with Zach and Bill in rememberence of the Cabriolet ordeal...

Megasqurit has a flex fuel capability that you should look into if you want to run E85.

That's good to know. Thanks.

[WDRacing]

Look into SDS as well, as far as engine management goes that is. No it's not as cheap as MS...but it works very well and is WAY easy to tune. It has a richness knob that can add or subtract 50% from the whole fule curve just to assist with the initial tuning etc, but it could be used to add fuel if the need arose to run E85.

WD

[DeXteR]

Wow... It's been a while. I've been extremely busy since the last post with my house and some family issues and working on other people's cars. With some of that stuff slowing down, I'm trying to get back into KA-T project.

I haven't had a whole lot to do at work this week, so I spent some time researching the turbo I want to run, reading compressor maps, doing some calculations, and that sort of stuff.

Here's what' I've come up with:

This is a graph of The KA24DET at various boost levels plotted on the compressor map for the Holset turbo (HY35 - HE351) I want to run.

I assumed intake temps to be 130*F and volumetric efficiency to be 85% for this particular graph. As you can see in the compressor map, atmospheric pressure for the data acquisition was 13.94psi, so that's what I used for baseline atmospheric pressure when calculating the engine flow.

Now, I didn't just crunch a few numbers, I built a whole spreadsheet for determining flow numbers in 500RPM increments up to 7000RPM at VE's between 70 and 90% and then for boost pressures in 5psi increments up to 35psi.

The end result is that I think this turbo is going to kick a lot of butt on the KA. From the graph, it looks like this turbo will be great anywhere between 15 - 25psi. With a good intercooler, I could probably bump it up to 30psi as long as I'm shifting around 6000RPM (according to my calculations) which isn't far from redline.

Other than this, no major updates. I'm going to start saving for forged internals again, but if I run across a set of 264 cams I might pick those up too. Why not?