Pistoleon Question

[ganma_ca]

Anyone ever "cracked" a stock CA piston? If that's even possible? And i'm guessing if it is, you would have to do something REALLY crazy to have it happen like running 36 pounds of boost on 85 octane with no oil and crap spark plugs or something crazy to that effect. Elsewise on stock boost plus premium gas and not doing anything stupid is it possible? I just had a kid tell me he did it and I want to know if he's full of or not?
Modified by ganma_ca at 4:53 PM 1/19/2009

[themadscientist]

I would think the head gasket would blow first. I have seen an SR completely melt the top of a piston down to the first ring. He had an injector fail on that cylinder.

[float_6969]

Not likely on a good running, properly tuned motor. It's also possible that the motor had been abused BEFORE the kid got it, and his running the motor was the "straw that broke the camels back".

[boost_boy]

Anyone ever "cracked" a stock CA piston? If that's even possible? And i'm guessing if it is, you would have to do something REALLY crazy to have it happen like running 36 pounds of boost on 85 octane with no oil and crap spark plugs or something crazy to that effect. Elsewise on stock boost plus premium gas and not doing anything stupid is it possible? I just had a kid tell me he did it and I want to know if he's full of or not?

Wide open throttle, stock boost, worthless fuel pump, car bucks a bit, he pays it no attention and keeps his foot on the pedal. Plenty of hot inefficient air coupled with plenty of spark and some advanced timing will usually result in melted piston or four; or at least some cracked ringlands. Basically, it is totally possible to melt a piston even at stock boost levels, using one or sme of the scenarios I've provided.

Dee

Hypothesis: He didn't set the cas with a timing gun, but more with guess work because it made the car feel better initially. Advanced timing on stock fuel system equals death to the engine.

[bentvalves]

I broke ringlands in a stock rb25 running 10 psi I think?

everysingle piston except for one had busted ringlands.

[r34 gtr]

I cracked an Arias forged piston in my Honda XR100R dirt bike. Over-revved it while cold and it repeatedly tagged a valve. Strangely enough the valve was perfectly fine, though the top of the piston had some serious dentage in it.

[ganma_ca]

I think boost_boy may have said it all:( Could all of you take a look at all 4 of these videos and tell me if this is the case? (this kid is a real idiot) The only big reason I'm concerned is because I found out about these vids after the fact that I bought the engine used in this car from this idiot kid not having any idea that he had treated it so poorly. And then a friend of mine brought the video's to my attention weeks later but now it's kinda to late. Please tell me what you think. Because this kid tried to drive it multiple times and may have cracked the ringlands, and was probably running a stock fuel pump, and other such non smart person crap. Here are the vids http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...latedh ... 26W0Thanks guys for any input you have

[ganma_ca]

BTW this is the kid that owned the car before me, and sold the engine to a friend of mine, and I bought the engine from the friend of mine not knowing the history of the engine. It's obvious the kid has NO idea what so ever about anything automotive. He claims in one of the posts that it has a bent rods and missing a piston or something stupid like that. The friend I bought the motor from told me the kid had no vacuum lines hook up AT ALL! Which is why it was running like crap. And that he was still running the stock KA fuel pump. *and the possibility of a bad maf). It just worries me that by him driving it those multiple times and trying to rev the piss out of it that he did a lot of damage. I don't want another junk motor. So please guys let me know what you think.Thanks!

[themadscientist]

ANY CA WILL NEED A REBUILD!

Unless the rod started to knock or even worse came loose which would be redily apperent as it would be sticking through the side of the block, the engine should be rebuildable.

If you are uncertain of the engines condition DO NOT buy it without tearing it down. I needs a rebuild regardless so pull it apart.

If there was a rod knocking the rod bearing should show damage. Deal breaker. Bearings that look like the facing material was wiped away could indicate overevving. Not necessarily a deal breaker.If a valve for whatever reason hit a piston from a timing belt break or skip or a high rev valve float the piston should have a mark and the valve will likely not seat properly. I would call that a deal breaker.

[ganma_ca]

Yeah I kinda figured that. (tearing down and rebuilding). But i'd like to know if anyone can tell from the sounds on the vids weather or not the engines about to completely blow up! If it is I'm selling it and forgetting about it. I have spent the time and money to rebuild a CA once before and it took way too long since I only have one car it's my dd, and I can't afford to be without a car for more then a weekend. I'm not exactly with in walking distance of where I work which is 25 miles away lol. I will be tearing it down some-what anyways I guess because I wanted to replace the main and rod bearings regardless, and if the rings are fried I wanted to do some "file to fitters" and I could do all that in a weekend. But I can't spend the time and don't have the money for a top to bottom complete rebuild. I remember doing the bottom end on a previous one and it ended up being around $1,400 with the boring honing blocking decking and a crank fix with new pistons/rings bearings and gaskets. But that still was without even touching the freaking head!!! If I have to drop $2,000 I'm just going to say screw it. And put a decent ka back in. If it's an easy fix I'll stick with the CA because I like them, but I don't want to put another junk engine back into it. AKA Rod knock/melted pistons/ crushed valves. I can't afford it lol!

[themadscientist]

The first videos sounded like a misfire. The last one though didn't scare me until 2:03, I can't be 100% sure but that could be a rod knocking. I didn't hear it in the other vidoes though, was that the last video, maybe it developed. The hard starting and the dieing out was not bad, valves are fine, kind of looked like an AFM problem to me. Is the cam angle sensor cranked all the way counter clockwise? It looks like it in the last video and that is not right.

[ganma_ca]

Thanks for watching those! Um well I looked at the block, and I need to rotate the crank but it doesn't have a rod through the side of it lol. and I'm going to take the oil pan off and have a look. And yes he did have the CAS rotated to the wrong position. I heard a lot of problems can occur if it's to retarded/or advanced? Put else wise it's good to hear that maybe the problems won't be too bad. When I do partially disassemble it if the rod is good, and the pistons look good, do you think I could get away with just redoing the bearings (main and rod), and the file to fit piston rings? I mean I don't need this engine to last me another 100,000 miles, if it gets me 30,000 more I will be satisfied. (and by then I'd have enough to do a full rebuild). Thanks again themadscientist! And any input from others is welcome too

[themadscientist]

Happy to be helpful

Post up some pics of the bearings when you tear it down.

[ca18detgabby]

Thanks for watching those! Um well I looked at the block, and I need to rotate the crank but it doesn't have a rod through the side of it lol. and I'm going to take the oil pan off and have a look. And yes he did have the CAS rotated to the wrong position. I heard a lot of problems can occur if it's to retarded/or advanced? Put else wise it's good to hear that maybe the problems won't be too bad. When I do partially disassemble it if the rod is good, and the pistons look good, do you think I could get away with just redoing the bearings (main and rod), and the file to fit piston rings? I mean I don't need this engine to last me another 100,000 miles, if it gets me 30,000 more I will be satisfied. (and by then I'd have enough to do a full rebuild). Thanks again themadscientist! And any input from others is welcome too

if the pistons and rods are toast you could always go hunt down some CA18DE pistons and rods......... 9:1(IIRC) compression and a boost in performance. most of the time they are in good shape and easy to locate for cheap in the junkyard......

this will require a bit of a tune as it will be lean on stock everything else........ but it will be worth it.

CAs are no FJ20s, but they are pretty rugged little motors.

hell there are people on the forum selling bare blocks for like 250 bucks.... could always go that route and not worry about what the previous moron did to your motor.

[float_6969]

The CA18DE pistons are 10:1, not 9:1. I found that out the hard way.

I will tell you though that 10:1 compression and boost makes for an awesome CA18DET, but you had better plan on running ethanol if you plan it not detonating.

[ganma_ca]

Sweet I will post pics of the bearings to see if there's any pitting and other randomness like super scraping. Good call Gabby, I will look around on here if anything is fubar with this engine. Which hopefully everything is fine:) And Float to run E85 I have to convert all the fuel lines and rubber rings in the injectors, and change something in the fuel pump as far as rubber hosing goes? But heck yeah an E85 powered CA would be sweeeeeeeeeeet! Shame about a month ago I was at a junkyard with a ca18de in it. I only took the plugs and ignitor. Looked like it had a blown headgasket. Should have grabbed the CAS though!I heard the regular Ka sohc maf works on these but they run rich? Thanks again all for the input:)

[ganma_ca]

AHhhh themadscientist I have a question though and idk if it would be the case or not, but if that was rod knock at 2:03 wouldn't it have continued to make that noise when he used the throttle body to raise the rpms again? Lol I hope it was just his buddy beating on the hood lmao! GAhhhh. I think thursday I'm taking the oil pan off to have a looksy. I'm keeping my fingers crossed lol. I guess if you pay attention I also hear those sounds at 0:04 when the engine isn't even running, which is the noise I'm assuming you mean also at the 2:03.Unless you meant that really crazy noise that was sort of high pitched that almost sounded like a squeaking belt? Well I will let ya'll know on thursday for sure what went down lol and hopefully it is good news, and not a crapped out rod!

[themadscientist]

rod knock is not usually intermittent. I have seen it start when a certain RPM is reached in the beginning stages but then it is there all the way up, faster and louder as you go higher. It sounds like a small peen hammer banging on the block at about the speed of the stopwatch clicks at the beginning of the show 60 minutes. If you here it it actually makes you feel sick. Lifters is twice as fast and sounds like a click not a bang.

[ganma_ca]

Dang it CA death is not acceptable!!!!!!!!!!!

Gahhhh I wish people would take better care of their pride and joy's. But like Gabby said if it's fubar I'm looking for another block, and new rods/pistons. Even though that's super laaaaame! Will also post picks if everything is crap inside lol.... I hope to see a nice inside and not a shreaded metal massacre!!!!

[Bwana]

Let me know if you need any help, I'll be in the area till May.

[themadscientist]

This is what rod knock sounds like, sick ain't it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfJIpiQZtR4

[bentvalves]

Hate to break it to ya matey, but that things got busted ring lands in more than one cylinder.

That RB I mentioned above behaved the EXACT same way after I broke the sh*t out of it.

Here is how you verify busted ring lands :

You have to check every cylinder, so starting with 1, put it at TDC so the valves are closed. Hold the front pulley bolt with a beefy socket/extension. Remove spark plug and pump compressed air into cylinder with the oil fill cap/and dipstick removed and listen for air wooshing out of there.

You might be able to skip the holding the crank pulley bolt by rotating the engine to BDC.....but im not 100% sure. Someone chime in, will the valves be closed in said cylinder with piston at BDC?

and TMS - that is rugged knock where there is NO bearing left and a metal rod end smashing around the circumference of a crankshaft throw.

knock in many cases starts out mellow and is only heard at certain RPM's. SXOC.com has all kinds of threads discussing the finer points of ca18det "death rattle"

[ganma_ca]

Well great vid on the rod knock I kinda cried a little lol:( But like I was saying there you can hear it all the time, and on the vid it I posted it did not sound like anything after he revd it and it was more of a thumping like someones hands hitting the hood. I hope gulp:( But yeah idk. And thanks for the info ks13 Flipping ringlands dude I think I'm just going to sell it. I mean unless you think I can take all the pistons/rods out buy some used ones in good shape for a reasonable price and put some new rings on them, and hope the cyclinder walls are still good. This has been such a headache. I just wanted to buy a good CA with low miles like everyone else, do a few things to prep it right, then throw it in there, tune it, and be on my way to boost happiness. But seems to me like I bought something I shouldn't have, and it came back to bite me in the @$$. So irritating. I wish I had known more details before I bought it. I guess I'm just at fault for believeing anything someone tells me, and leaves out VERY VERY important details.

[r34 gtr]

Just purchase someone's short block on here for cheap, or throw some new pistons in it. Even with all that damage, you aren't looking at anywhere near a grand in parts. MAYBE 600 if you bought some CP pistons, but if you just purchased some new CA18ET pistons you wouldn't be out more than a few hundred.

[bentvalves]

you gotta do a down n dirty leakdown like I explained to conclude 100% it has busted pistons first.

[r34 gtr]

I prefer to assume and spend large amounts of money unnecessarily.

[magmonster]

Just purchase someone's short block on here for cheap, or throw some new pistons in it. Even with all that damage, you aren't looking at anywhere near a grand in parts. MAYBE 600 if you bought some CP pistons, but if you just purchased some new CA18ET pistons you wouldn't be out more than a few hundred.

I'm looking for pistons now also, so this thread got me thinking..I can't seem to source Nissan OEM CA18DET (cast 83.5mm) new pistons anywhere.

Wiseco pistons have squirter clearance issues (but do the forged units even need the cooling from the squirters anyhow?)

JE pistons are direct fit, but @ $600.00 a set.... (ahem)

I started looking into the CA18ET pistons, and they are low compression cast units, that seem to be swapable. Nissan has a listing for the ca18et standard size (83.0mm)

Well then I stumbled on ITM pistons, which are even cheaper @ 138.00 a set with rings on E-Bay. I know these are Ebay items, but from what I've been able to dig up, these pistons come in several popular parts counter re-ring/piston kits, and seem to be high quality from the reviews on other online Mitsibushi and Toyota forums.

Anyhow, that being said... the ITM part number for the CA18ET (cast 8.x pistons) in a .5mm overbore is ITM-RY6420-020

Cheers

[ganma_ca]

I have never done any research into it but will a Ca18et bottom end bolt up to a ca18det head? I know I am looking it up right now as I write this but if someone can answer it faster on here that would rock. I still have a complete Ca18et rebuilt bottom end laying around from an abandoned S12 project I started years ago.....

[ganma_ca]

So I was looking on club s12 and apparetly some british guys have used an et head on a det block, so I'm assuming a det head should work with a et block???Freakin A if that works I am sooooo saved lol! The only problem with just grabbing the pistons and rods out of that is that everything is .40 overbored!!!!DOH! So wouldn't work in the det without having them bore it. Which is why I need to find out or have someone confirm it's doable... And pray to God the kid in who's garage I left it still has it sitting there! You said the pistons are cast though, that's kinda poop:( but hey if the block can match up with the head I'd just buy some forged pistons and basically be sitting on a new engine! Thaks guys for the info, and if anyone can confirm you can put a DET head on an ET block that would be freakin awesome!!!!!!!!!

[ganma_ca]

Awwww super lameness. Ok so it can be done. But here's the crap tacular facts.The blocks are identical except for the following. No oil squirters stupid lame. No crank girdle, tiny as in not beefy rods, and cast pistons. So though I could do it, it's almost like what would the point be!?!??Sucks balls. Supposedly I could get the block machined to house the oil squirters, and get some new beefy rods, and maybe see if the crank girdle bolts up, but there too is way to many things left that kinda just make it not even worth it. DET>ET all the way, shame nissan didn't start thinking that ahead of the game with the ET motors......