Piggyback vs. EMS

[roast]

I want to upgrade my ECU to include real-time map tracing.

I have a hard time connecting A -> B without seeing some activity on the map. I'm hoping this helps me wrap my head around basic fuel map and timing maps for my Silvia.

My HP goals are 300whp (I have T3, FMIC, walboro, 450cc, etc to support my goal).

My current tuning setup includes a Zeitonics Wideband O2, MAP sensor and EGT. I have a Romulator plugged into the stock ECU.

I can log AFR, EGT, MAP & RPM. I have room for one more 5v input on the zeitronics.

I haven't had much seat time playing with my rom tune, I was solely concentrating on passing emissions and repairing things that were done poorly and then repairing things that I broke (HG, oil pump, ...)

My number 1 choice is a full standalone EMS however it's far out of my budget if new... I'll also take into consideration local support from professional tuners... Here's my list...

Local support & dyno time
Vi-Pec
AEM EMS
Haltec (don't really want this ECU but there are shops that support it)

Local support but from start up (new businesses) tuners
Nistune

Local support from friends
PowerFC

Available for sale locally
Greddy Emanage Ultimate

I want to make sure I buy the most practicle EMS system for the ca18det and if I can avoid re-inventing the wheel, I'd love to get anyones experience on this topic.

[boost_boy]

Do some research on this topic, especially standalone EMS systems. The minimal cost for a good standalone is $1700, but it has also been said that the megasquirt system is pretty functional as well. I and a few others here use SDS (www.sdsefi.com) and I love it. I've been using these systems for nealy 10 years now and can honestly say, it is by far one of the simplest systems to install. And the tech support is awesome, but don't take my word for it; just search around for more info. Btw, I am an installer and tuner of said system and those 450cc injectors you speak of are too small (IMHO) to be using with a standalone EMS. Good luck with y our quest and remember to do some heavy researching and ask plenty of questions before you decide.

[sjbsuperman1425]

I've researched alot about NIStune the past two years and it seems to be a good system for someone who is on a tighter budget. It does seem to have some bugs here and there and there are alot of reports of it crashing with different OS and stuff, but last I talked to them they said the VISTA and AEM wideband issues had been fixed. Good luck with your research and choice EMS!

[roast]

Dee, I like the style of the SDS system, simple... It's still a lot of money, the EM-4F kit is $1500! I expected it to be a bit cheaper... Also, I'll have to pick up some 550 or 600cc injectors....

sjbsuperman1425, I know Nistune is filling the gap between rom tuning (buying chips or doing it yourself) and full stand alones.... I don't think it's the best, I do think it'll do the job.

[float_6969]

I'm and SDS fan as well. I've installed and tuned other systems as well. Nothing I've run into is easier to understand, install, and tune, than an SDS. And for most ppl out there, it will do everything you need it to do.

[roast]

RE: SDS

Can I convert SDS EM4-4E to EM4-4F? (Distributor to direct...)

Edit:
Above question is a potential deal from a guy parting out his crx...

Lots of SDS 4F's on VW sites... If can land an EM4 for the same cost as Nistune I'll buy one... (I'll eat the $2-300 in accessories later...)

[boost_boy]

RE: SDS

Can I convert SDS EM4-4E to EM4-4F? (Distributor to direct...)

Edit:
Above question is a potential deal from a guy parting out his crx...

Lots of SDS 4F's on VW sites... If can land an EM4 for the same cost as Nistune I'll buy one... (I'll eat the $2-300 in accessories later...)

The EM4-F systems are for distributorless ignition systems. The EM4-E systems can be converted by racetech, but it's going to cost and missing components may not be worth it once you tally-up the totals. It's cheapest to just source an F system and stay away from trying do magic with the other systems or else you'll be sorry.

[roast]

The EM4-F systems are for distributorless ignition systems. The EM4-E systems can be converted by racetech, but it's going to cost and missing components may not be worth it once you tally-up the totals. It's cheapest to just source an F system and stay with from trying do magic with the other systems.

I emailed racetech to get a quote... I'm reading the em4main17.pdf explaining theory and installation...

[roast]

Just about to send payment for a SDS EM-3F, the only thing I need to buy is IAT, CTS and a resistor pack for the injectors.

boost_boy / float: Did you guys design a crank angle sensor mount for the CA? I plan on mounting it where the A/C bracket was.... If you've designed on in some type of CAD, I'll burn a few parts off and ship a couple back to you as a payment for your time. I have a few plasma cutters, whitney, brakes, etc, etc at work, I can get one of the guys to do it for me after hours...

[boost_boy]

Just about to send payment for a SDS EM-3F, the only thing I need to buy is IAT, CTS and a resistor pack for the injectors.

boost_boy / float: Did you guys design a crank angle sensor mount for the CA? I plan on mounting it where the A/C bracket was.... If you've designed on in some type of CAD, I'll burn a few parts off and ship a couple back to you as a payment for your time. I have a few plasma cutters, whitney, brakes, etc, etc at work, I can get one of the guys to do it for me after hours...

I think float uses one that attaches to the area of the A/C bracket. All of mine including the 15 other installations I've done uses a custom bracket that nestles just below the alternator and uses the two 12mm bolt holes that goes through the oil pump and into the block to secure it. I have no problem sending you one of mine to mock-up if you want to. Just drop me an email and we can discuss oit further. Be sure and get yourself at least some 750cc injectors; nothing less.

[roast]

Woohoo, deal is done, EM-3F ships monday...

RE: 750cc injectors

Really? I was going to look for 650cc injectors so that i'd get a good idle (not saying you can't on 750cc), I used the formula from SDS (displacement / # cylinders ) * 1.5 ... (~1800cc/4)*1.5=~675cc

edit: Dee, I'll send you an email...

[boost_boy]

Woohoo, deal is done, EM-3F ships monday...

RE: 750cc injectors

Really? I was going to look for 650cc injectors so that i'd get a good idle (not saying you can't on 750cc), I used the formula from SDS (displacement / # cylinders ) * 1.5 ... (~1800cc/4)*1.5=~675cc

edit: Dee, I'll send you an email...

Trust me on this one, there is no idling difference between the two. Hell, my cars idle 1000cc injectors like they were 370s. But the fuel efficiency is out the window. If you don't ever plan on stepping over 350whp, then the 650s will suffice. The key here is to keep your injectors below the infamous 85% duty cycle, so plan accordingly. Other than that, congrats on the purchase and you will find that the investment is well and worth it. No more playing with chips and daughter boards as well as magical boxes that look pretty at night and invite thieves throughout the day.

[roast]

Thankfully I don't care about fuel efficiency...

I'll have to start hunting for a good set of injectors...

[s13drifter88]

Im shooting for 350ish whp before my bottle and I got 750's from Deatschwerks for $310. Id only get the 750s tho. Ive heard a few questionable things about the 850s.

[float_6969]

I've actually run both types of mounts. The A/C mount was the easiest to build, but the mount that sits infront of the alternator looks VERY clean, and the wire isn't in the way of anything.

[roast]

Should I be looking for Low impedance injectors? Can I use the stock dropping resistor (I was going to anyways, or I'd grab a DSM dropping resistor, it'd save me a few bucks)?

Also, will the stock water temp sensor work?

[boost_boy]

Should I be looking for Low impedance injectors? Can I use the stock dropping resistor (I was going to anyways, or I'd grab a DSM dropping resistor, it'd save me a few bucks)?

Also, will the stock water temp sensor work?

Should've asked racetech to set you up with their injector resistors. They are cleaner looking and much more compact than the stock CA or DSM units. And "Yes" in the fact that you should be sourcing 750cc injectors of the low impedance type.

[s13drifter88]

In answer to the engine management question Nistune would do everything that it seems youre looking to do. Now I have no experience with the SDS system that was spoken about above so I cant judge it or really compare it. I myself have gone the rom tune route with Jim Wolf Tech but I do have 2 good friends running Nistune and it sure seems to a great job. I do like the idea behind Nistune as well because of the features it provides without the high cost of a full stand alone ems. For majority of the street applications I think its more than enough but thats just my 2 cents but Im open to new ideas so feel free to correct me.

[roast]

In answer to the engine management question Nistune would do everything that it seems youre looking to do. Now I have no experience with the SDS system that was spoken about above so I cant judge it or really compare it. I myself have gone the rom tune route with Jim Wolf Tech but I do have 2 good friends running Nistune and it sure seems to a great job. I do like the idea behind Nistune as well because of the features it provides without the high cost of a full stand alone ems. For majority of the street applications I think its more than enough but thats just my 2 cents but Im open to new ideas so feel free to correct me.

this is my semi-experienced opinion:
I think Nistune is very capable and was my first choice due to price, features and real time map tracing. If you're on a ~$500 budget, Nistune should be at the top of your list!

Why I say this: I have a Romulator plugged into my factor ECU, if you search for threads started by me, I struggled to get the car to idle properly, pass emissions in Ontario, has spark blowout, etc... I was fed up with the amount of time it took to something simple, like update the fuel map.

First, I'd have to log a run using an external logging tool (Zeitronix in my case), guess what part of the map was being accessed, update the fuel or timing amount and then update the romulator. That's a 45minute procedure... After you update, you need to log another run and see if you corrected the problem....

If I had Nistune, I could jump into map trace mode (whatever it's called), find where it was accessing the map at the RPM and load, modify on the fly and be done with it. Second, with Nistune, I could have adjusted my idle AFR sooo much easier! There's a set procedure to fine tune your injectors so you idle at 14.7, have a base value then adjust your fuel map and timing.

SDS : My side of the story
Going to SDS was a no brainer for me, I found a used EM-3F system for less than Nistune new. (racetech.com: The EM-3 knock sense parameter will only adjust from 1 to 16, whereas the EM-4 can adjust from 1 to 32. The EM-3 cannot support the new nitrous retard, and A/C aux input features. The EM-3 does not have a 5 volt tach output on the main harness connector.) Even if I order the 2 missing sensors and resistor pack from Racetech, I'm at the same cost of ordering Nistune with software... which I was prepared to do.

What sold me on SDS was reading the installation manual and getting started guide made sense. The company posted EFI theory on their website that was down to earth and understandable. Second, my Silvia is a 3rd car, if it blows up, who cares [edit:] (not me), my son goes to bed at 7PM and I get to wrench on my car without worry for 3 hours... I wanted to simplify my setup and in a few years I'll only have to pass a two speed idle test for emissions, no load, no nox testing, no worries! =D

[s13drifter88]

cant argue with that

[dash]

nobody will question standalone capabilities, but I'd say piggyback value, simplicity and learning curve is unmatched.
Fortunately, I learned this before ever spending a dime. The neighbour did.

His 1st standalone was SDS 7mgte street corolla, then SDS 2jzgte S13. He likes the SDS, but....
Lacked datalog, launch control and ability to view all parameters simultaneuously.... so he went microtech. 2 of the 3 installs failed later and had to mail those POS all the way to austrailia!

SDS / 2jz / street S13 ran the same 7.0 1/8th as the microtech
His latest is a 1jz / S13, just over 500hp & ~498 ft-lbs. Unopened 1JZ. ET 7.0 1/8th recently.
Tuned via SAFC II, bigger injectors on bone stock ecu. Car runs beautiful.

In addition to seeing some(very few) CA18 owners travel off the beaten path and enjoy solid results, via; maf/bigger injector/SAFC/stock ecu.... that is the path I chose. Wideband and det cans will keep me safe, on my journey to see how much I can wring out of an unopened CA18.

A few starion owners run a clubmembers' $500 plug-n-play megasquirt. Plan is to try one on my starion, get familiar with the system.... then mount the same type crank trigger wheel & sensors on my ca18.... and carry on. Eliminate the finicky CAS and 20 year old wiring

[float_6969]

He likes the SDS, but....
Lacked datalog, launch control and ability to view all parameters simultaneuously....

EM4 logs fuel, has launch control, and you can view all of the engine parameters between the 4 gauge screens. I personally do most of my tuning in the Gauge 4 screen. BUT if you want to see ALL of the engine data at the SAME time, no, the SDS can't do that. IDK when I've ever felt like I needed to be able to see more data than what the SDS displays though. Just my personal experience.

[dash]

perhaps because it was quite a few years back.... older version ?
Anyway, at the time, even SDS told him their system wouldn't provide what he was after
Guy knows what he's doin. I've been frightened senseless in his customer street car at 38psi

[float_6969]

Yea, if it was older, it might not have had those options then. The launch control is the newest edition. Maybe a year ago at most.

[roast]

Update: SDS EFI EM-3F is in my hands! =D Magnets are being mailed on Monday then I'll order a resistor pack from racetech.

Float/Dee: Can I use the stock coolant Temp Sensor?



Richard

[boost_boy]

You can use the stock sensor. I tried to send you pics via my blackberry and respond to your emails, but for some reason the messages have a red X beside them basically telling me it hasn't been sent. I'm not ignoring you, it's just that when I think the messages have been sent, they really aren't, so I'll try something different tomorrow.

[roast]

That's cool, I was wondering... I talked to the GM and he told me I can use any scrap stainless for free... !!! =D

[float_6969]

Yea, stock CTS is fine. You might need to call SDS and have them walk you through changing the sensor type though.