Perhaps Infiniti has finally learned

Forum for Infiniti M35 and M45, and Nissan Fuga owners.
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Perhaps Infiniti has finally learned

Postby 350zQ45a » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:11 am

When you rebadge old 90s cars and try to sell them as new Infiniti's it jsut doesn't work.

The F50 Q45 and Y34 M45 were perfect examples. Sure these were ok cars, but the bottom line is this:

They were old designs and they wern't ever intended for V8's. The old M45 really sucked at handling if pushed hard, it couldn't even beat out a Lincoln LS v8 in a comparison. It was pretty much universally panned. Sure it was cheap, but it wasn't a performance car like Infiniti tried to sell it as. It was just a big car with a awesome engine.

Now we have the new M built on the great FM chasis. Here is a car that is cheaper then the German V8s and performs similar or better to them.

The G, FX, and now M are all built on the FM chasis, and they are all a success. Infiniti needs to learn if it wants to be considered with the Germans and Lexus, it needs to keep the product line fresh and never offered old rebadged Nissans if they want to be a contender.


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Postby 350zQ45a » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:14 am

BTW If you think there are any similarlities between the old and new M45, I leave you with this.

The M45 set a record for a production sedan in the slalom in I believe road and track The only sedans to post a better slalom were the BMW M5 and Audi RS6, basically super sedans.

This an incredible accomplishment and really shows the night and day difference between the Y34 and Y35.

The old M was nothing but hype, the new M is actually underhyped for what it can do.

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Postby PalmerWMD » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:39 am

Ryan that coparison were the 03 M45 got "beat" by a Lincoln was seriosuly flawed I almost posetd a note here to boycott said magazine as aresult.

First off the M had better slalom, braking acceleration than the LS>

The M's slalom numbers were always up thee.

For the money you simply couldnt get a better all around performer in an importa V8 sedan.

Braking was top notch too.Interior gorgous and not much diffeerent from the current one.

If I ever see a deal on a 03 M45 I might bite.

Fred...

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Re: (350zQ45a)

Postby szh » Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:33 am

Oh, yes. I agree that the new M45 has better handling than the new one for sure! Personally, I don't like the look as much, but that is changing as I see more of them on the road. However, at the time I got my 2003 M45, the price-performance value was among the best V-8 powered sedans that I could get.

As Fred mentioned, the Lincoln LS V8 is surprisingly good (I have posted on that car recently - I drove a rental for a few days), but it does not compare to the M45.

Would I sell my current 2003 M45 for a new M45 today? No, don't need to, 'cause the performance is good enough! Barring accident and unforeseen events, I hope to keep it for at least 5 more years (have had it for 2 now) and then see what is available in a V-8 at that time - the best price-performance value will get the nod again.

EDIT: although I have to admit, I had gone in to to get a G35 Coupe and made the "mistake" of seeing and test driving the M45 ... both my wife and I loved the quietness, inside comforts and engine more!

Z

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It could have had a V8! Oh, it did.

Postby maxnix » Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:38 am

350zQ45a wrote:The F50 Q45 and Y34 M45 were perfect examples. Sure these were ok cars, but the bottom line is this:

They were old designs and they wern't ever intended for V8's.
Well, the F50, FY33, Y34 and Y50 were designed for both V6 and V8 to accomodate world markets, kind of like Mercedes, Audi and BMW, except they can go to 12 cylinders on their large chassis.

Incidentally, the Y34 and Y50 with the VK are available only in the US and (for the Y50) ME markets.
PalmerWMD wrote:If I ever see a deal on a 03 M45 I might bite.
There are a ton of them out there. 3 model years old is a good time to jump in.

I loved our test drive (liked the G35 6M sedan also!), but not enough to let go of reliable VH performance.
Modified by maxnix at 4:33 PM 7/21/2005

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Postby AZhitman » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:08 am

Good discussion - I smell a feature article for the home page, maybe a collaborative effort, in "Point-Counterpoint" format? (hint hint?)

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Postby PalmerWMD » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:10 am

You mean like contrasting the old to the new one replte with pics of Nico members cars in each model?

Sounds like a great idea!

Fred..

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Re: (szhosain)

Postby szh » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:18 am

szhosain wrote:As Fred mentioned, the Lincoln LS V8 is surprisingly good (I have posted on that car recently - I drove a rental for a few days), but it does not compare to the M45.
Here is a link to that previous post: zerothread?id=87589

Z

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Postby AZhitman » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:25 am

I was thinking more along the lines of just reviewing the 02-03 M with some pros / cons....

We could do the other as well, but I fear that would leave little room for the 1st-gen M to shine.

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Re: (AZhitman)

Postby maxnix » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:39 am

AZhitman wrote:I was thinking more along the lines of just reviewing the 02-03 M with some pros / cons.....
Why not scoop those other forums and do a Y34/Y50 (M45S) comparison?

They did a 1996 G50 vs. a 1997 FY33, which is not representative of much.

I guess I could do a 1995 G50 vs. 2000 FY33 comparison if I had access to timing equipment and a test location.

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Postby 350zQ45a » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:34 am

Oh, where to begin, where to begin.

Fred I think you need to lay down the pipe, if you think the Y34 interior is anywhere close to the new M I need to grab some of your rock for myself.

The old M had terrible hard plastic everywhere, the material on the doors was some sort of cheap material. It did look good, but upon close examination it revealed incredibly cheap details.

The new M is probably the least cost cut Infiniti to ever leave the line, except for the old G50.

Go sit in a new M and really soak it up. Run your fingers over the surfaces, and really examine the details. Then go sit in a Y34 and do the same, I promise even the best crack won't make you think they are anywhere similar.

The F50 sold in Japan without a v8. Irregardless of that it still isn;t that great of a car, and doesn't act very nice when pushed hard.

If I remember correctly they said maybe the M did have more grip but it behaved badly when pushed, and the lincoln was a much better aka polished performer.

Even if you think it does handle reasonably well it's night and day compared to the new M.

The new M is an Infiniti worth raving about, the old M really isn't.

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Re: (350zQ45a)

Postby szh » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:00 am

Well, having owned a Y34 for a few years now, and driven it to extremes, my observations/comments might not be as definitively one-sided as yours , but you do have very valid points. They are certainly different cars and the new M45 Sport is a better handling vehicle for sure.

Were I in the market for a new car today, I would get a 2006 M45 Sport. Of course, if some dealer had a brand new, unsold 2004 M45 sitting on the lot and offered it for a dramatic discount compared to a 2006 M45 Sport, the decision would be tougher ... price-performance value is also important to me! Remember that I bought my 2003 M45 new for less than the price of a loaded 2004 G35 Coupe.

And, like I said earlier, I would not trade in my M45 today to "upgrade" - why let somebody else benefit from the initial depreciation that I have already paid for?

By the way, have you noticed on the road that you cannot tell whether the car is an M35 or an M45? Till you get close to the tail and see the numeral from close up. I like the unique looks of the Y34 (not everyone does, of course) ... you cannot mistake it for any other car. Instantly recognizable.

Z

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Postby 350zQ45a » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:15 am

The old M never won any comparison and it was even cheaper then the competition then the new M is.

That says something. Not that it isn't a good car, I guess I just always hold Infiniti to the standard the G50 elevated them to.

I believe the FX, G, and new M meet that standard.

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Postby 350zQ45a » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:22 am

It's certainly to say any car ever sold as an Infiniti is a nice car. Certainly every manufacturer makes "nice" cars, but only a few make cars that could be considered one of the best of their day.

I don't think the Y34 or F50 come anywhere close. In their defense they wern't really thought out or designed to be, I don't think.

Certainly the Y50 is.

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Postby 350zQ45a » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:30 am

There is certainly a point like on a dyno graph where price vs quality meet.

The first model GTOs sold horribly, you could buy a new one out the door for 21,000 - 22,000 nearly 10 off sticker. Now for the money that is a hell of a deal, but it doesn't make the car any better, it just makes the price you paid better.

You bought your M over a G35, but the G is still a much better performance car over all, which tells me you placed other features over absolutle performance.

I think if absolute performance is the goal the new M and G are the best Infinitis.

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Postby 350zQ45a » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:32 am

I think we can all agree Infiniti needs to look at what has sold in their lineup vs what hasn't, and learn from it for the next Q45.

The next Q needs to be on an advanced chasis, have a great engine, handling equal or better the the germans (same goes with overall steering/feel etc) and be cheaper.

If the current M lost in all its comparisons I dont think it would be selling that well. Certainly the car is rather bland looking so it isnt its exotic look sselling the car. It's solid marketing with real meat.

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Postby AZhitman » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:43 am

I think one half of our article is almost done...

The only point Ryan makes that I'd disagree on is the "cost-cutting" on the G50... I just don't see it (even in the areas of the car no one will ever see, there is unnecessary attention to detail).

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Re: (350zQ45a)

Postby szh » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:56 am

350zQ45a wrote:You bought your M over a G35, but the G is still a much better performance car over all, which tells me you placed other features over absolutle performance.
Probably! Like I said in the comparison I did earlier (see the link to it a few posts back), I chose the M45 over the G35 for a number of reasons. Which may not applicable to other people's reasons! And, fwiw, everytime I drive a G35 loaner from the dealer (even recently,) I remain convinced that my decision was right for me!

Regarding reasons for purchase, when I bought my first Infiniti Q45 (in march of 1991), I was actually about to buy a Nissan 300ZX Turbo to replace the 1985 200SZ Turbo I had. The Q45 test drive and purchase that evening was a surprise even to me - it was the first automatic, first four-door sedan, that I had ever owned! But, the test drive and smooth power of the V-8 convinced me!

Quote »I think if absolute performance is the goal the new M and G are the best Infinitis.[/quote]Yes ... depends on your goals entirely! If I did not have a young son to tote around occasionally, when I replaced my 1995 Q45, I would have bought a 350Z - that was one of the options we considered ... and discarded! Plus, my wife wanted the 350Z to be an automatic, so she could also drive it! NO WAY (I mean "no way I would get an automatic 350Z", not that she could not drive my car! We share the M45 today - we switch every other month till she replaces her grossly underpowered Acura 2.2CL later ...)

The 2003 M45 turned out to be better fit for our purchase reasons (rear seats, price-performance, V-8 engine, more luxury comforts, right price, etc.) than the 2004 G35 Coupe or Sedan for sure - but we did not know that till we went in to the dealer that day and saw and test drove the M45!

Z

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Re: (350zQ45a)

Postby szh » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:59 am

350zQ45a wrote:Certainly the car is rather bland looking
Agreed ... I have said this before! Although, I have to admit that after I have seen a few on the road, it is not as bad as I had originally asserted.

Z

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Re: (szhosain)

Postby DAEDALUS » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:14 am

szhosain wrote:my wife wanted the 350Z to be an automatic, so she could also drive it! NO WAY (I mean "no way I would get an automatic 350Z", not that she could not drive my car! We share the M45 today - we switch every other month till she replaces her grossly underpowered Acura 2.2CL later ...)
Ugh, I'm in the same boat between a G35 and a used Q. The only problem is that my gf won't drive a Q45 because it's too big. I fear I may someday have to buy a Scion TC auto. Blech.

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Re:

Postby AZhitman » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:31 am

DAEDALUS wrote:
The only problem is that my gf won't drive a Q45 because it's too big.
Beats the hell out of the "heel-toe express".

Shouldn't she be making more important decisions, like what to make for dinner?

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Postby 350zQ45a » Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:02 pm

I must admithttp://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...05937

9k orig miles for under 30. thats the fully loaded model as well.

Helluva car for the $$

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Re: (Daedalus)

Postby szh » Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:04 pm

DAEDALUS wrote:my gf won't drive a Q45 because it's too big.
My wife felt the same way about the Q45's I had. She would only drive them if she really had too for some reason - like when I would take her Acura for service.

The problem is that the cozier compartment of the M45 fools her into thinking it is a small car. And it isn't!! She scares me when swinging into parking spots and has backed into things - ding on the right rear corner of the bumper. Oh, well!

Z

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Postby 350zQ45a » Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:06 pm

Here is a nice way to save on that initial depreciation

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...97223

Missing the sport pack, I'd rather have the sport pack and make my non existent kids suffer without their dvds :P

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Re: (350zQ45a)

Postby szh » Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:09 pm

350zQ45a wrote:9k orig miles for under 30. thats the fully loaded model as well.

Helluva car for the $$
Not completely loaded ... it has the Premium Package but not the Technology Package (the DVD navigation was in that, for example).

Still, you are correct in that the price is pretty good! Might even go for a bit less than their Buy Now price, I think.

Z

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Re: (350zQ45a)

Postby maxnix » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:31 pm

Love the wood, but no tech package.

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Re: (maxnix)

Postby MinisterofDOOM » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:21 pm

This thread rocks!

When the first M45 came out, I remember drooling over it. Beautiful car...aggressive yet elegant looking. I've never been a fan of the F50. I don't like the looks, and it's too "lexus" for me...wood interior, ultra-lux, and it's got a great engine, but it's a bulky, heavy car. It had no appeal.

The original M was Infiniti's answer to my problems with the Q.Sporty, yet luxurious. Looks that were simple and smooth, and yet unmistakable, and they had that something that drew the eye straight to it.If I could have had any Nissan or Infinit product, I was prepared to drop my Maxima allegiance in a heartbeat for an M45.I only ever saw one on the road. I saw it nearly daily, though. It was owned by one of the proprietors of golf club right near my house. Unfortunately for me, the parking lot was gated ( ).

I drooled over that car. When friends would start talking about their love for Lexuses or Mercedes, or BMW, I'd bring up the M. I'd show them a picture of it, and tell them about the wonderful V8 engine. Then I'd subtly mention the price. The argument never continued much after that.

The G35 has never had much appeal to me either, as a car (though I have to say it is one of the most beautiful cars of all time). It's far too small. The sedan is simply pointless, as it's too small for any real sedan-type use. And the coupe? I could have a Z, which is more performance oriented, and more my style.

So again, the M was my answer--especially since the V8 spoke to the musclecar lover in me.

So when I started catching wind of the M45 redesign, I got worried.I figured it'd end up a cross between the tiny G and the uselessly luxo F50. I just didn't see how that'd work out right.Strangely, that's EXACTLY what it is, and it worked out magnificently. The car is simply a pleasure to look at--again, it combines a clean, flowing simplicity with undeniable aggression. It also looks very "Infiniti"--and yet you know it's an M the second you see it. The tail lights scream G35--but they don't mislead you for a second. And the profile of the car is perfect. The infiniti ads and flash animations transitioning from simple curves to a side view of the car say more than words ever could. The front fascia and hood, while sharing a curved look with the G, also managed to recall the angular scowl of the first M. It's almost as though Infiniti had the original M advocates in mind, knowing they'd have to please them with the successor. But in reality that seems unlikely, as Infiniti didn't design the M; Nissan did--the M and Fuga differ very very little. And as unsuccessful (I still fail to understand why) as the original was, I doubt the opinions of those few people who cared mattered much in the development of the redesign.And the car is big again. It's big enough that all five seats are usable, and that four adults can comfortably enjoy the ride. The interior is perhaps the best I've encountered. Nothing skimped on, nothing cheap. Everything has purpose--whether it be comfort, aesthetic, or function--and it serves that purpose well.

I haven't driven one, but I have had opportunities to sit in them, at the SLC International Auto Expo toward the end of winter, and at dealerships. I liked the seating position (not just the seat location--the overall resultant placement of the driver in relation to the wheel, pedals, windshield, and the rest of the controls). The controls were straightforward and, while arranged in an aesthetically pleasing manner, still managed to be straight to the point and functional. And the steering wheel was not, as is becoming so annoyingly common, too small.

If I could have any new Nissan right now, it would without question be an M45. To me, the M45 is the one and only true successor to the G50 Q45--the car that sparked my interest in Infiniti before I ever knew they were an offshoot of Nissan.

Most of you guys here know I'm a sedan guy, and a big car guy. I was raised on muscle cars and Maximas.

The M45 speaks to me. It says drive me, push me. Enjoy it, because I sure do. It says grab some friends, we're going to smoke some little coupes while sipping ice cold cokes.

If there's one big V8 sport sedan that has real soul, the M45 is undoubtedly it.

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Postby PalmerWMD » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:31 am

MoD:What a beautiful post!

Fred..

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Re: (PalmerWMD)

Postby MinisterofDOOM » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:30 am

PalmerWMD wrote:MoD:What a beautiful post!

Fred..
Thanks!

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Re: (MinisterofDOOM)

Postby Sil40_Mayhem » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:52 am

MoD: Wow, man. Friggin wow. Clearly, articulation is your forte. Excellent post.


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