P0011. 2003 M45 takes longer to start, stalls at 1000 rpm [SOLVED - VTC solenoid, and fuel pump supply hose]

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Dxta
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Car: Infiniti M45 sedan base sport

P0011. 2003 M45 takes longer to start, stalls at 1000 rpm [SOLVED - VTC solenoid, and fuel pump supply hose]

Postby Dxta » Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:20 pm

Hi everyone. So some two days ago, i tried starting the engine of my car, and suddenly, it'd take alonger while to want to start, and if it eventually starts, the RPM would be on 1000, and then the engine stalls.

This has never happened before, even when i was battling with the p0355 code i recently fixed a few days ago.

Scanned the vehicle, and got a p0011 code, which was surprising to me. A camshaft A advance code.

I did check the engine oil, it was so low, just on the L mark.

I intend to check the phaser, solenoid sensors on the timing chain cover, and probably open up the valve covers to look at the chains timing if they have skipped a tooth or two.

Any suggestions someone here has in addition to what I'd be doing checking the engine?


PS: swapped all the cabin bulbs for LED setup, and also installed an analog voltmeter on the dash, to enable me get accurate battery voltages.
I actually connected one of the voltmeter wire to a fuse as power source, on the engine control red fuse(can't remember if it's 10A now or not).

The engine control fuse, is hot only when ignition is turned on.

I thought the hardstart, was as a result of the LED in the cabin, and the voltmeter power source from the fuse i connected. So i disconnected everything, got another battery, because mine was dead, as a result of prolonged starting. Car took longer to start, and went off.

Thanks


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VStar650CL
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2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby VStar650CL » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:22 am

The P0011 can definitely come from low oil. Dunno about your engine specifically, but Nissan VQ's can begin to misbehave in cold weather with as little as 1/2 quart low. It will also definitely cause a long crank, since the ECM checks the cam readings each time you turn the key and will take several seconds to decide the readings are faulty and it should start up using the crank sensor alone.

Dxta
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Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby Dxta » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:05 pm

That's so much Vstar! I'm going to replace the oil this week or so.

Is there away to have an oil catch can put on the intake Mani area, to reduce oil deposited in the aluminum intake manifold? Appears, i always get oil shortages, when i travel like 1000-1500km. I'd need to either top up, or drain the oil.

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VStar650CL
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Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby VStar650CL » Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:13 pm

I dunno about a catch can, but I assume the car has some miles on it. If so, have you ever changed the PCV? Crappy PCV's can bleed a lot of oil back into the intake and make it disappear transparently, except for oil film in the intake and maybe the air filter. Same thing if you have obstructed PCV hoses or clogged PCV baffles in the valve covers. I'd give all of that a good look-see to find out if your oil is actually disappearing out the tailpipe.

Dxta
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Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby Dxta » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:05 pm

VStar650CL wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:13 pm
I dunno about a catch can, but I assume the car has some miles on it. If so, have you ever changed the PCV? Crappy PCV's can bleed a lot of oil back into the intake and make it disappear transparently, except for oil film in the intake and maybe the air filter. Same thing if you have obstructed PCV hoses or clogged PCV baffles in the valve covers. I'd give all of that a good look-see to find out if your oil is actually disappearing out the tailpipe.
The oil doesn't disappear at the tailpipe. By the way, my engine is a VK45de.

EdBwoy
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Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby EdBwoy » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:28 pm

Dxta wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:20 pm
...
Scanned the vehicle, and got a p0011 code, which was surprising to me. A camshaft A advance code.

I did check the engine oil, it was so low, just on the L mark.

I intend to check the phaser, solenoid sensors on the timing chain cover, ...
Oil level and timing sensor codes
- not typically related on the VK45DE engines
- you should still keep an eye on your oil level though. These engines are unforgiving when run low for extended periods of time.

Oil quality/cleanliness
- a little more likely, although not common. Remove the sensor, wipe off any grime on it and also check the cleanliness of the pickup on the VTC sprocket.

Another option
- most times, this ends up being a bad sensor. However, since I don't like spending money I don't have to, I favor cheap troubleshooting steps.
- switch the sensor from the left bank to the right bank and see if the P0011 code goes away and P0021 appears, which would indicate a bad sensor.
- if the code doesn't change despite relocating the sensor, then you can dig deeper.

Dxta
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Car: Infiniti M45 sedan base sport

Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby Dxta » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:13 am

EdBwoy wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:28 pm
Dxta wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:20 pm
...
Scanned the vehicle, and got a p0011 code, which was surprising to me. A camshaft A advance code.

I did check the engine oil, it was so low, just on the L mark.

I intend to check the phaser, solenoid sensors on the timing chain cover, ...
Oil level and timing sensor codes
- not typically related on the VK45DE engines
- you should still keep an eye on your oil level though. These engines are unforgiving when run low for extended periods of time.

Oil quality/cleanliness
- a little more likely, although not common. Remove the sensor, wipe off any grime on it and also check the cleanliness of the pickup on the VTC sprocket.

Another option
- most times, this ends up being a bad sensor. However, since I don't like spending money I don't have to, I favor cheap troubleshooting steps.
- switch the sensor from the left bank to the right bank and see if the P0011 code goes away and P0021 appears, which would indicate a bad sensor.
- if the code doesn't change despite relocating the sensor, then you can dig deeper.
Hi edboy! Dont know if i should create another thread, or just continue updating in here though.

Some updates on my car today:
1. Carried out continuity test on the power and ground wire harnesses on both the cam and crank sensors, and discovered that there seems to be short to power on the wires.

I did this test with the ECU unplugged, and each of the connectors tested. Surprising, i got the wires shorting to ground, which i think is absord.

How i understand testing for power on the power wires on the cam/crank to work is, ignition ON, with sensors unplugged, and probing the positive power wire on the connector harnesses with the positive probe of my meter and connecting the ground lead to ground or chassis.

The results should be battery power. But in my case, I'm getting positive battery power on the power and grounds points of the cam/crank sensors.

2. With the ignition OFF, i still keep getting battery voltage on the power and ground wire harnesses of the sensors.

There's also continuity of the power wire harnesses of the sensors to chassis, which is not supposed to be so.
I'm of the opinion that the power wire harnesses are not supposed to have continuity with ground/chassis, but only the ground wire harness side of the sensors that are supposed to have continuity with chassis?

The signal wires, don't have issues, cos they are not shorted from my tests.



PS: i think my hypothesis is that, because of the short to power or ground that I'm getting now, could be the reasons why the cam/crank sensors burned out probably, because from my tests today, it appears the sensor harnesses circuits, were always on HOT, so this may have destroyed my sensors, and not to cause the car to start, with the hardstart I'm experiencing?

Prelude to this has been, engine cranks for a LONG time, and it attempts to starts, as it starts, and rpm is at 1000, the engine shuts down.
When i checked for spark on one of the ignition coils, spark was not bright (hard to see), before it eventually totally went out.


Thanks everyone

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VStar650CL
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Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby VStar650CL » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:26 pm

For all 3-wire Hall sensors, there should be power at one of the wires, ground at another, and the data wire will show either 5V or 12V depending on the level of the pullup resistor inside the ECM. Ohming through the pullup is useless and can be dangerous to the ECM. For your isolation tests to mean anything, both the ECM and sensors must be disconnected, not just the sensors. The best way to check the power and ground wires at the sensors is to measure voltage between one another and not to the chassis, that way you're testing the quality of both "at the horse's mouth". Then you should check the ground quality using voltage drop, by back-probing the ground wire at the sensor and measuring to the block with the engine running. Higher than about 20mV is unhealthy and higher than 50mV may cause repeated sensor failures.

Dxta
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Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby Dxta » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:56 pm

VStar650CL wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:26 pm
For all 3-wire Hall sensors, there should be power at one of the wires, ground at another, and the data wire will show either 5V or 12V depending on the level of the pullup resistor inside the ECM. Ohming through the pullup is useless and can be dangerous to the ECM. For your isolation tests to mean anything, both the ECM and sensors must be disconnected, not just the sensors. The best way to check the power and ground wires at the sensors is to measure voltage between one another and not to the chassis, that way you're testing the quality of both "at the horse's mouth". Then you should check the ground quality using voltage drop, by back-probing the ground wire at the sensor and measuring to the block with the engine running. Higher than about 20mV is unhealthy and higher than 50mV may cause repeated sensor failures.
Vstar. The engine can not be made to run, so your suggestions about the 20mV and 50mV I don't think would work.

I disconnected both the ECU and sensor connectors before performing the tests.

PS: what surprises me is that both the power and ground wires of the sensors, always displays battery voltage, even when the ignition is not turned to ON to test for sensor power voltage.

I'm trying to locate the FSM manual so that I could follow.

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VStar650CL
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Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby VStar650CL » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:48 pm

What year is your ride? I'll look up the wiring. Power and ground may be on separate buses from the ECM, but the data wire definitely shouldn't have voltage when disconnected at both ends. Btw, the voltage drop on the ground can be done while cranking, she doesn't need to run.

Dxta
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Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby Dxta » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:51 am

VStar650CL wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:48 pm
What year is your ride? I'll look up the wiring. Power and ground may be on separate buses from the ECM, but the data wire definitely shouldn't have voltage when disconnected at both ends. Btw, the voltage drop on the ground can be done while cranking, she doesn't need to run.
1. Ride is 2003; i was able to download the power and ground wire diagrams from the FSM here, and I'm still studying it.

2. Power and ground, on separate buses, you meant on separate circuits, isn't it and shouldn't have any form of continuity on them as i have right now?

3. They don't have voltage since i have disconnected everything from the ECU, to the crank and cam sensor harnesses.
What i meant is that, for instance, with battery still connected in the car, and without ignition ON, or cranking the engine, just doing a continuity tests on the power wire of the sensors, you get a short to ground on the circuits concerned. There's basically short to ground,on the power wire of the sensors.

4. I intend to disconnect the harnesses and ECU relay on the passenger area, and trace where the problem is coming from.

Any leads, would be helpful.
I honestly don't want to sell this ride as scrap. Really want to try my best to fix it.

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VStar650CL
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Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby VStar650CL » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:24 am

The setup for the sensors is pretty Nissan-normal. Power is 12V and not 5V like later ones, but it comes through the ECM and not from ignition or battery. So as long as the ECM relay is on, the sensor power wires (Red for both crank and cam) should show 12V. The ground wires should go directly to ground (Blk/Wht for the crank, Blk for the cam). The data lines (Pnk/Blu for the crank, Blu/Wht for the cam) will have pullup resistors to 12V, so they should show 12V when checked loose from the sensors but connected to the ECM. When fully connected the voltage will depend if metal is present at the sensor. When doing isolation tests (both ends disconnected) the ground wires should still ohm 0 to the chassis, but the power and data wires should show infinity to ground, to 12V, and to each other.

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Re: M45 keeps stalling when driving

Postby EdBwoy » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:38 pm

Dxta wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:13 am
...

Hi edboy! Dont know if i should create another thread, or just continue updating in here though.

...
No worries, I've split the topics. I think because it's a different code, it would be worth having this as a standalone discussion so that important contributions don't get lost due to the title.

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Re: P0011. 2003 M45 takes longer to start, stalls at 1000 rpm.

Postby EdBwoy » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:47 pm

Now, Dxta if I may ask, is there a reason you are hesitant to perform this simple test suggested prior?
EdBwoy wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:28 pm
...
Another option
- most times, this ends up being a bad sensor. However, since I don't like spending money I don't have to, I favor cheap troubleshooting steps.
- switch the sensor from the left bank to the right bank and see if the P0011 code goes away and P0021 appears, which would indicate a bad sensor.
- if the code doesn't change despite relocating the sensor, then you can dig deeper.
While probing and scoping circuits can get you some impressive data, if the methodology is not done correctly you could end up in a worse state than you were before you picked up any instruments.
It seems like you either own one, or have access to an OBD 2 code reader, right? Armed with a code reader and 10mm tools, you can usually identify a bad sensor in well under 5 minutes.

Dxta
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Re: P0011. 2003 M45 takes longer to start, stalls at 1000 rpm.

Postby Dxta » Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:36 pm

EdBwoy wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:47 pm
Now, Dxta if I may ask, is there a reason you are hesitant to perform this simple test suggested prior?
EdBwoy wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:28 pm
...
Another option
- most times, this ends up being a bad sensor. However, since I don't like spending money I don't have to, I favor cheap troubleshooting steps.
- switch the sensor from the left bank to the right bank and see if the P0011 code goes away and P0021 appears, which would indicate a bad sensor.
- if the code doesn't change despite relocating the sensor, then you can dig deeper.
While probing and scoping circuits can get you some impressive data, if the methodology is not done correctly you could end up in a worse state than you were before you picked up any instruments.
It seems like you either own one, or have access to an OBD 2 code reader, right? Armed with a code reader and 10mm tools, you can usually identify a bad sensor in well under 5 minutes.
I have actually swapped the solenoids on either banks already. The drive side solenoid has some RTV that was part of the last engine rebuild some months ago.

But finally last week, i was able to get the engine started.
Could you believe that it was the fuel pump that had issues?
Each time i spray starting fluid in to one of the intake manifold ports, the engine starts immediately, and shuts down.
Decided to even check what could be the problem. Removed the pump, and discovered the supply hose attached to the pump and filter, had expanded, thereby allowing gasoline to leak back into the tank, without supplying the required quantity for the engine to start.
Replaced the hose already, and engine started immediately.

Thanks everyone for your inputs.

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Re: P0011. 2003 M45 takes longer to start, stalls at 1000 rpm.

Postby EdBwoy » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:50 pm

Thanks for the update Dxta. In hindsight the fuel issue makes sense with the vehicle dying.
The engine codes were actually correct for a different issue so they would have led you to the solenoids without telling you anything about the fuel. How frustrating!

Did you by chance take any pictures?

Dxta
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Re: P0011. 2003 M45 takes longer to start, stalls at 1000 rpm.

Postby Dxta » Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:29 pm

EdBwoy wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:50 pm
Thanks for the update Dxta. In hindsight the fuel issue makes sense with the vehicle dying.
The engine codes were actually correct for a different issue so they would have led you to the solenoids without telling you anything about the fuel. How frustrating!

Did you by chance take any pictures?
It was really frustrating really. It almost took me close to a month, before I realized suddenly that the pump supply hose attached to the inner fuel pump filter, had swollen, and led to all that loss of pressure, and spark to the coils in the engine.

I had to rip open all the wire harnesses from the crank/cam sensors, down to the ECU, kept testing for shorts or open circuit problems.

I have since deleted some of the pictures i took, because it's hard posting pictures on here, since there seems not to be that"attachments" options for one to directly post pictures.

Are there other direct ways of posting pictures, etc, just in case i come across other issues?

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VStar650CL
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Re: P0011. 2003 M45 takes longer to start, stalls at 1000 rpm [SOLVED - VTC solenoid, and fuel pump supply hose]

Postby VStar650CL » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:45 pm

There's an attachment option, you need to do it in "Full Editor & Preview" and then there's an "Attachments" tab at the bottom, underneath the "Preview" and "Submit" buttons. If your cam has very high res you may have a size problem, but 1500~1000 pixels on the long side is very viewable and loads fast for everybody. I just use Paint or Photo Filtre to shrink mine before attaching them.


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