first of all, i am not familiar with laws in calif about old freon.so i'm just gonna ask away here.my 92 q still has the original a/c system and i want to keep it that way. is there any way i can get it re-charged besides mexico?
administrators, if this is umappropriate, then delete please.
Original A/C on first gen Q, can I keep it?
Nothing inappropriate...R-12 is still perfectly legal with a few government restrictions. Just illegal to manufacture or import into the US is all, which makes it cost a LOT more than R-134a. But I'm down with keeping the system stock...it was designed for R-12 and is less efficient with anything else. Conversions are cheap to do cheaply, and expensive to do right.If you know your compressor works fine, you can get Pep Boys to recharge the system for maybe $40 + $2-2.50/oz of freon. Your car takes about 40 ounces of freon, so maybe $120-150 total. I recommend you replace the drier too, but of course that'll cost extra.
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Q45tech
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If the AC has leaks it is illegal to recharge, and not having R12 to the correct weigh is proof of leaks.All the o rings will need replacing at minimum and any component destroyed by not changing the compressor oil when moisture entered the system.
R12, the PAG oil, and moisture interreact with the heat to form an acid which dissolves the aluminum [especially in the evaporator].
The dryer contains silica gel to absorb this moisture but if too much moisture gets in, it destroys the dryer........also contains a screen filter to help catch metal pieces/rubber bits.
Nothing much mysterious about the mechanical/refrigeration aspects of the Q AC system......pretty much the same as all car of that era.......
R12, the PAG oil, and moisture interreact with the heat to form an acid which dissolves the aluminum [especially in the evaporator].
The dryer contains silica gel to absorb this moisture but if too much moisture gets in, it destroys the dryer........also contains a screen filter to help catch metal pieces/rubber bits.
Nothing much mysterious about the mechanical/refrigeration aspects of the Q AC system......pretty much the same as all car of that era.......
"Your Customer Has Options
It's wise to advise your customer of the economy of a leak-free system. Leak repair often pays for itself in the long run, by avoiding repeated "top-offs" of increasingly expensive refrigerant. Although this is sound advice, you should never imply that leak repair is required under federal law. To do so would constitute consumer fraud. In most areas of the country, your customers can simply choose to have their systems "topped-off", if they desire.
Some state and local jurisdictions, however, do require that all leaks be repaired. For example, Wisconsin; parts of California; Colorado; Austin, Texas and Albuquerque, New Mexico have regulations in place that supersede the federal requirements. For complete details, check with your state or local agencies."
From http://www.asecert.org/subchannels/training_10.cfmI don't know what parts of CA have stricter codes, but I'm sure at least some of them are in SoCal somewhere.
It's wise to advise your customer of the economy of a leak-free system. Leak repair often pays for itself in the long run, by avoiding repeated "top-offs" of increasingly expensive refrigerant. Although this is sound advice, you should never imply that leak repair is required under federal law. To do so would constitute consumer fraud. In most areas of the country, your customers can simply choose to have their systems "topped-off", if they desire.
Some state and local jurisdictions, however, do require that all leaks be repaired. For example, Wisconsin; parts of California; Colorado; Austin, Texas and Albuquerque, New Mexico have regulations in place that supersede the federal requirements. For complete details, check with your state or local agencies."
From http://www.asecert.org/subchannels/training_10.cfmI don't know what parts of CA have stricter codes, but I'm sure at least some of them are in SoCal somewhere.
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Q45tech
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Members better read the whole 12 pages on this site they are referring to R134a not R12 as being top off able.
There is a requirement in the certification process that certified technicans are responsible for fines up to $10,000 IF they recharge a leaking system [because that would be a discharge into the atmosphere] so they refuse! Individual owners may chose to recharge R12 if they can acquire it.
"Service of the refrigerant circuit requires certification under section 609 for anyone performing “service for consideration.” Persons working on their own equipment, such as DIY’s and farmers, are not covered under this rule and can add refrigerant without being certified. However, there are two important factors that cover anyone servicing a mobile A/C system. Anyone attempting to remove refrigerant from the system legally cannot vent it and can be fined if they do so. This means that they must have recovery equipment and to operate it they must be certified under section 609. In addition, to purchase most refrigerants they must be certified. So the end result is that if they work on the refrigerant circuit at some point they need equipment and refrigerant, both requiring 609 certification.
DATE: Jan. 5, 1998 "
In State of Georgia they must vacuum the system free of R12 residue if it comes in leaking to protect others. No topping off here.
"The EPA is still in the process of revising its Section 609 SNAP rules, which includes a proposed ban on the sale of R134a to non-certified individuals. Like the ban on R12 sales to DIYers, the new rule would restrict the sale of R134a refrigerant to certified professionals only. The new rule may go into effect late this year or early next year.
The EPA is also reviewing a possible ban on disposable refrigerant cylinders. The concern here is the environmental impact of residual refrigerant that may be left in these cylinders when they are disposed of.
The EPA has a hotline (1-800-296-1996) to answer nontechnical questions about refrigerant laws. Technical information for shops is available at the http://www.ccar-greenlink.org website.
The EPA says is inspected about 400 shops last year, which resulted in 86 enforcement actions. Most of these were warnings but some were fined for various violations. The EPA says its current focus has shifted from getting A/C service shops certified to making sure they are doing retrofits correctly. Current retrofit regulations require recovery and recycling of any residual R12 refrigerant still in the vehicle, installing new service fittings, installing a high pressure cutout switch, and labeling the system to identify the type of refrigerant used.
The MACS field survey found that only about 62 percent of vehicles that have been retrofitted have been retrofitted correctly!"
There is a requirement in the certification process that certified technicans are responsible for fines up to $10,000 IF they recharge a leaking system [because that would be a discharge into the atmosphere] so they refuse! Individual owners may chose to recharge R12 if they can acquire it.
"Service of the refrigerant circuit requires certification under section 609 for anyone performing “service for consideration.” Persons working on their own equipment, such as DIY’s and farmers, are not covered under this rule and can add refrigerant without being certified. However, there are two important factors that cover anyone servicing a mobile A/C system. Anyone attempting to remove refrigerant from the system legally cannot vent it and can be fined if they do so. This means that they must have recovery equipment and to operate it they must be certified under section 609. In addition, to purchase most refrigerants they must be certified. So the end result is that if they work on the refrigerant circuit at some point they need equipment and refrigerant, both requiring 609 certification.
DATE: Jan. 5, 1998 "
In State of Georgia they must vacuum the system free of R12 residue if it comes in leaking to protect others. No topping off here.
"The EPA is still in the process of revising its Section 609 SNAP rules, which includes a proposed ban on the sale of R134a to non-certified individuals. Like the ban on R12 sales to DIYers, the new rule would restrict the sale of R134a refrigerant to certified professionals only. The new rule may go into effect late this year or early next year.
The EPA is also reviewing a possible ban on disposable refrigerant cylinders. The concern here is the environmental impact of residual refrigerant that may be left in these cylinders when they are disposed of.
The EPA has a hotline (1-800-296-1996) to answer nontechnical questions about refrigerant laws. Technical information for shops is available at the http://www.ccar-greenlink.org website.
The EPA says is inspected about 400 shops last year, which resulted in 86 enforcement actions. Most of these were warnings but some were fined for various violations. The EPA says its current focus has shifted from getting A/C service shops certified to making sure they are doing retrofits correctly. Current retrofit regulations require recovery and recycling of any residual R12 refrigerant still in the vehicle, installing new service fittings, installing a high pressure cutout switch, and labeling the system to identify the type of refrigerant used.
The MACS field survey found that only about 62 percent of vehicles that have been retrofitted have been retrofitted correctly!"
I once had a shop talk me into converting an early Q (91) to the new (R143a) and regretted it.Performance very noticably less than new.
When I crashed the car I was considering reconverting it back to R12.The stuff is still available.Yes it more expensive, but when a compressor+condesnor is $1100 and extra $100-200 for the more expensive older R12 refill isnt such a big deal.Especially when converting costs $200 for a pep boys job so as for money saved its a wash (at least at that point and for next couple years of operation.But you get much better performance with the old gas in your early Q.An early Q AC works awesome if in proper shape.I was once in 116F (in sun w/ a 92Q) and the AC worked so well, I wound up turning it down after a while(!).
So yes you want keep your old AC and keep using the R12.Even a pep boys still can deliver R12 as it gets recycled.(But I was stupid enough to let them talk me into a "conversion")
Fred...
When I crashed the car I was considering reconverting it back to R12.The stuff is still available.Yes it more expensive, but when a compressor+condesnor is $1100 and extra $100-200 for the more expensive older R12 refill isnt such a big deal.Especially when converting costs $200 for a pep boys job so as for money saved its a wash (at least at that point and for next couple years of operation.But you get much better performance with the old gas in your early Q.An early Q AC works awesome if in proper shape.I was once in 116F (in sun w/ a 92Q) and the AC worked so well, I wound up turning it down after a while(!).
So yes you want keep your old AC and keep using the R12.Even a pep boys still can deliver R12 as it gets recycled.(But I was stupid enough to let them talk me into a "conversion")
Fred...
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Q451990
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Q45tech wrote:"The EPA is still in the process of revising its Section 609 SNAP rules, which includes a proposed ban on the sale of R134a to non-certified individuals. Like the ban on R12 sales to DIYers, the new rule would restrict the sale of R134a refrigerant to certified professionals only. The new rule may go into effect late this year or early next year.
Tech, do you know when this was written? Sounds like it's time to go hoard up some 134a just like R12 before the environmentalist wackos take that away from me too! If anyone hears confirmation of a 134a ban, please let us know! What's next?
Heath
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Q45tech
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The thing they never mention is the R12 condensor is not very efficient in dumping heat with R134a.........so with R134a besides the new compressor you need a 1994 or later condensor and new type dryer which needs new type hard lines and sensors.............might as well change every single component and then you get 9-13% less cooling [at idle in traffic] unless you change to the 94 front grill, fans, radiator, shroud, etc.............every single degree of differential is critical and 3-4-5F outlet temp difference is sure feelable in 100F ambient traffic.
I've already checked my pressures since last June's compressor and condenser/dryer /o ring replacements .......still waiting for the 13.3 year old [247k]evaporator to leak, but examination [mirror and flashlight] [during the interior fan replacement] showed it to be still in good shape...........thus the benefits of PM on the ac system.....I change the dryers [$150] ever 60k.
Have never paid for R12 since the system hasn't leaked -sure a 1/4 pound gets lost in mantenance.
Still have 90 pounds in storage waiting for the price to hit $1500 per 30 pound container.......currently around $700 wholesale........another 7 years
I've already checked my pressures since last June's compressor and condenser/dryer /o ring replacements .......still waiting for the 13.3 year old [247k]evaporator to leak, but examination [mirror and flashlight] [during the interior fan replacement] showed it to be still in good shape...........thus the benefits of PM on the ac system.....I change the dryers [$150] ever 60k.
Have never paid for R12 since the system hasn't leaked -sure a 1/4 pound gets lost in mantenance.
Still have 90 pounds in storage waiting for the price to hit $1500 per 30 pound container.......currently around $700 wholesale........another 7 years
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natsoundup
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For the past couple of years, I have "topped off" with a product called Enviro Safe....just went and got a couple of cans Saturday...in anticipation of the hot season..
I usually put in a can of their version of a leak stop... then add a can...
My A/C is cold now...but it is only 80 today... I will have to add the other can in about a month.
I am strongly considering getting a new drier this year... I think the other was replaced about 7 years ago... other than that I am fine...
I suspect the Enviro Safe isn't as cold as R-12...but in South Carolina.... it's about 7 dollars a can..
90 Q 152k miles
I usually put in a can of their version of a leak stop... then add a can...
My A/C is cold now...but it is only 80 today... I will have to add the other can in about a month.
I am strongly considering getting a new drier this year... I think the other was replaced about 7 years ago... other than that I am fine...
I suspect the Enviro Safe isn't as cold as R-12...but in South Carolina.... it's about 7 dollars a can..
90 Q 152k miles
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Q45tech
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Lots of these products contain almost pure propane or a butane mix great fun in the event you have an accident and fire but what's a few pounds of PROPANE.......what are the chances your car will catch fire.
One only considers a new dryer when the system DOESN'T leak as the dryer will be destroyed in a month as the moisture leaks in and it tries to do its job.
AC shops should have a gas identifier tester and test every incoming AC system for odd ball mixtures as they will destroy their $6,000 machines and contaminate $700 worth of R12.
Owners who use non stardard gases should be beat with a stick if they don't warn AC shops in advance........you risk the chance of making a real enemy!
One only considers a new dryer when the system DOESN'T leak as the dryer will be destroyed in a month as the moisture leaks in and it tries to do its job.
AC shops should have a gas identifier tester and test every incoming AC system for odd ball mixtures as they will destroy their $6,000 machines and contaminate $700 worth of R12.
Owners who use non stardard gases should be beat with a stick if they don't warn AC shops in advance........you risk the chance of making a real enemy!
That was one reason I converted the a/c in my mbz, when the guy at a local shop told me I had to do it.
so Daedulus, since you are in LA as well, I can actually go to pepboy and ask them to recharge my system?
This sounds too good to be true, but will take your workd for it.
by the way, there's nothing wrong with my system, it works perfect, but anticipating the summer coming up.
so Daedulus, since you are in LA as well, I can actually go to pepboy and ask them to recharge my system?
This sounds too good to be true, but will take your workd for it.
by the way, there's nothing wrong with my system, it works perfect, but anticipating the summer coming up.
Dennis, I still disagree. From EPA's website for *technician* FAQ:
"EPA does not require that leak repair be performed before refrigerant is charged into a vehicle, although certain states and localities may require such repair. "
I would think they would specify if that statement only applied to R-134a. I agree that your logic is sound; by topping off a known leaking system, you are in effect venting R-12 to the atmosphere. However, I believe the intent of the law is to prevent technicians from opening up whole systems for service without proper recovery. I also believe that ALL systems leak to some degree. My sniffer, which is rated to .1 oz/yr, detects leaks in every car I've held it to, including my friends' 2002 A4 and 2002 Saab. Not to mention the fact that some refrigerant leaks out EVERY time a fitting is disconnected. It is impossible to prevent with any reasonable method.I am EPA-certified and I do take this very seriously (I do have an identifier to protect my equipment and to verify what I stock). Perhaps a matter of interpretation? It just seems to me that the EPA quote is a clear enough statement.
"EPA does not require that leak repair be performed before refrigerant is charged into a vehicle, although certain states and localities may require such repair. "
I would think they would specify if that statement only applied to R-134a. I agree that your logic is sound; by topping off a known leaking system, you are in effect venting R-12 to the atmosphere. However, I believe the intent of the law is to prevent technicians from opening up whole systems for service without proper recovery. I also believe that ALL systems leak to some degree. My sniffer, which is rated to .1 oz/yr, detects leaks in every car I've held it to, including my friends' 2002 A4 and 2002 Saab. Not to mention the fact that some refrigerant leaks out EVERY time a fitting is disconnected. It is impossible to prevent with any reasonable method.I am EPA-certified and I do take this very seriously (I do have an identifier to protect my equipment and to verify what I stock). Perhaps a matter of interpretation? It just seems to me that the EPA quote is a clear enough statement.
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Q45tech
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They cannot require you not to break the law, they can only tell you what the penalties are if you do and get caught.!
You as "certified" can tell the owner you will not break the law and to go somewhere else to find a recharge. I agree that saying the EPA requires that a system be 100% leak free before recharging is a misnomer......it must only be leak free for you as "certified" to be recharged by you.........Whether in legalese you could set the system up and have the owner push the recharge button is a matter for the courts. Facilitation of an airborne release is also a crime for you not the owner.
All systems do leak especialy older R12 hoses but the newer R134a hoses leak 9/10 less so a change to newer hose types would be helpful.
To make matters easier your government and especially California would like all pre 96 cars declared to be terroristic [axi of evil cars] and crushed ........by the end of 2003 they will be over 8 years old beyond their legal life.
If US doesn't sell 15-16 million new cars/trucks per year the economy will collapse.
You as "certified" can tell the owner you will not break the law and to go somewhere else to find a recharge. I agree that saying the EPA requires that a system be 100% leak free before recharging is a misnomer......it must only be leak free for you as "certified" to be recharged by you.........Whether in legalese you could set the system up and have the owner push the recharge button is a matter for the courts. Facilitation of an airborne release is also a crime for you not the owner.
All systems do leak especialy older R12 hoses but the newer R134a hoses leak 9/10 less so a change to newer hose types would be helpful.
To make matters easier your government and especially California would like all pre 96 cars declared to be terroristic [axi of evil cars] and crushed ........by the end of 2003 they will be over 8 years old beyond their legal life.
If US doesn't sell 15-16 million new cars/trucks per year the economy will collapse.
I have a stupid question...don't know much about AC.
In response to Q45 tech's post:
"Have never paid for R12 since the system hasn't leaked -sure a 1/4 pound gets lost in mantenance."
Does this mean that if there is no AC leak the refrigerant does not have to be replaced?? I was under the impression that the R12 would deplete with normal use, and have to be recharged. If this is not the case then there are tons of cars rolling around with leaky AC systems, as everyone I know gets their AC recharged.
Does my 95Q have the same general system as your 90Q?Why did you replace your dryer every 60K? Did you noticed the air not blowing quite as cold as it once did?
I realize these questions are very elementary, and I appreciate the education I receive here daily.
In response to Q45 tech's post:
"Have never paid for R12 since the system hasn't leaked -sure a 1/4 pound gets lost in mantenance."
Does this mean that if there is no AC leak the refrigerant does not have to be replaced?? I was under the impression that the R12 would deplete with normal use, and have to be recharged. If this is not the case then there are tons of cars rolling around with leaky AC systems, as everyone I know gets their AC recharged.
Does my 95Q have the same general system as your 90Q?Why did you replace your dryer every 60K? Did you noticed the air not blowing quite as cold as it once did?
I realize these questions are very elementary, and I appreciate the education I receive here daily.
That is correct...if it doesn't leak, you never need to recharge it. The freon is in a continuous cycle. But as Dennis stated, even the hoses are permeable to some small amount. That's why I say that all cars leak. As far as replacing the drier, that's another point of contention, I think I've always thought that air and moisture couldn't permeate *into* a system that was at a (much) higher pressure. Obviously Dennis disagrees, and perhaps the longevity of his system is proof.There are 2 main types of automotive AC systems, and I'm pretty sure all Q's use the same reciever-drier configuration. The refrigerants are different, though, which requires some changes, but the principles are the same.http://home.howstuffworks.com/ac.htmDennis I understand what you're saying about the legal aspects. Sometimes the law and common sense don't see eye to eye...we can only hope that the judge and the jury are reasonable people. I'm sure every tech in the country knows they're releasing freon every time they disconnect their service fittings from an R-12 system...every one of them breaking the law. If I can't *knowingly* recharge a leaky system, then I should never do a sniffer check. A vacuum check is far better at smearing reality.
I've always thought that air and moisture couldn't permeate *into* a system that was at a (much) higher pressure. Obviously Dennis disagrees, and perhaps the longevity of his system is proof.There are 2 main types of automotive AC systems, and I'm pretty sure all Q's use the same reciever-drier configuration. The refrigerants are different, though, which requires some changes, but the principles are the same.http://home.howstuffworks.com/ac.htmDennis I understand what you're saying about the legal aspects. Sometimes the law and common sense don't see eye to eye...we can only hope that the judge and the jury are reasonable people. I'm sure every tech in the country knows they're releasing freon every time they disconnect their service fittings from an R-12 system...every one of them breaking the law. If I can't *knowingly* recharge a leaky system, then I should never do a sniffer check. A vacuum check is far better at smearing reality.I just replaced the R12 system in my 1990 Q with a new R12 system. If you perform the regular maintenance (have it vacummed and dryer changed every 2 years) then you will get YEARS of use out of the system. My compressor finally gave out so not even regular service can forestall everything. But there is NO DOUBT the R12 system is the way to go. After my replacement my air discharge temp is now 34 degrees and I'm ready for another sweltering summer!
Stick with R12, it's more expensive, but well worth it.
Stick with R12, it's more expensive, but well worth it.
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greg_atlanta
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LAQ wrote:by the way, there's nothing wrong with my system, it works perfect, but anticipating the summer coming up.
Then don't touch!!
If a qualified tech looks at the system and finds you have 90% of the freon required, the tech is supposed to vacuum it out and fix the leak, and chances are you'll need a new compressor and evaporator, maybe more. Can quickly become a $3000 problem.
Chances are some A/C work has already been done prior to you owning the car. You haven't had the car for long, right?
A leak that big will be hard to find with a sniffer...it'll be going off constantly. Using compressed air to clear the area might help. Look for grimy areas near the line fittings; the oil in the system leaks too. Refrigerants are heavy and tend to fall downward. Bills to ban R-134a have been in consideration for years. I believe they will pass, but it might take years more. R-134a can be bought currently for about $60/30lbs.
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Q45tech
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When you pay to get the R12 vacuumed down [takes 30 minutes] into the recycling machine [gets filtered and dryed] it gets weighed and the machine displays the exact charge [say 2.40 pounds]. This is how you know the exact amount that leaked between mainteances.You recharge by weight setting the machine to reinsert the correct amount.
The absolute correct charge is important because 2.0 vs 2.4 pounds will be noticeable.......even 2.2 will be 2-3F warmer than 2.4. Over that amount does no good and the system actually declines by 2.5.
You replace the dryer as a part of maintenance as the dryer is also a filter to store tiny bits of metal and rubber [inside of hoses, orings, compressor seals] besides its main function to absorb any moisture that might leak into and thru the rubber flex hoses...........all about the molecular sizes of water vapor, R12, or R134a.
The 8 o rings are where the bulk of the small leaks come from and these need changing when leaks are detected.
Used Owners should be able to go 4 years without a recharge and the system still meet specs.
The reason mobile AC fails is the variable speed of compressor as engine changes and the rubber hoses to isolate the engine bolted compressor from the rotation [torque twisting] of the engine and vibrations of the aluminium parts from the road/tire imbalances, etc.
AC system haven't changed much in 30 years except for the V5 variable displacement compressor........no mysteries here.
Why is it that a brand new Mobile AC system needs nothing for the first 4-5-6-7 years then fails .....lack of maintenance.
The absolute correct charge is important because 2.0 vs 2.4 pounds will be noticeable.......even 2.2 will be 2-3F warmer than 2.4. Over that amount does no good and the system actually declines by 2.5.
You replace the dryer as a part of maintenance as the dryer is also a filter to store tiny bits of metal and rubber [inside of hoses, orings, compressor seals] besides its main function to absorb any moisture that might leak into and thru the rubber flex hoses...........all about the molecular sizes of water vapor, R12, or R134a.
The 8 o rings are where the bulk of the small leaks come from and these need changing when leaks are detected.
Used Owners should be able to go 4 years without a recharge and the system still meet specs.
The reason mobile AC fails is the variable speed of compressor as engine changes and the rubber hoses to isolate the engine bolted compressor from the rotation [torque twisting] of the engine and vibrations of the aluminium parts from the road/tire imbalances, etc.
AC system haven't changed much in 30 years except for the V5 variable displacement compressor........no mysteries here.
Why is it that a brand new Mobile AC system needs nothing for the first 4-5-6-7 years then fails .....lack of maintenance.
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Q451990
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DAEDALUS wrote:A leak that big will be hard to find with a sniffer...it'll be going off constantly.
I checked it out last night and didn't find anything, but I recently degreased the engine and rinsed out the evaporator (whole truck is torn apart looking for water leak) so I'm sure I rinsed off most of the residue.
The cool thing about this tool, is that it has a reset button on the wand, so once you're in the area of the leak you can set a new baseline and then pinpoint the leak from there...I tried it out with a schrader valve and I could get it down to only detecting the tip! I'll let you know how it works in real life.
They're on sale here for about $120, so it must be a close-out at this point, used to be about $250.
Heath