Ok, let's talk about Qualifications and Experience

[96Qowner]

This needs its own thread.

I've been asking Obama supporters about his qualifications and experience, here and on other forums. The vast majority of them know virtually nothing about Obama. Their responses typically fall into a few categories.

1.) Bush was an awful President and he was supposedly qualified.

2.) McCain is old.

In the end, 3.) they declare that experience and qualifications aren't necessary for a President.

So, let's see if anyone actually thinks he's qualified. Here are the rules:

!.) Bush isn't running so lets not talk about him. Saying Obama won't be any worse than Bush is not an argument for Obama's qualifications.

2.) Saying McCain is old isn't an argument for Obama's qualifications

3.) If you think the next President should be unqualified, save us all some time and just say so.

Otherwise, I'd love to hear Obama's qualifications for the job. I'd love to hear just what Obama supporters are thinking. Keep in mind that being over 35, a non-felon, and breathing are eligibility requirements, not qualifications.

[skylndrftr]

He went to an Ivy league school thats kindof a De Facto qualification.

Honestly,

He is a fantastic orator. I know that sounds silly but look at the history of government, especially the presidents. As a leader you need to be able to make our language sound like that of the gods. It makes a difference it really does, especially now.

He has also participated in the several levels of government from the grassroots level on up as opposed to jumping right into a senate role.

So lets flip this,

what are McCains?Serving in the military is not a qualification especially when you graduate 890 out of 894 from the academy.

[Cold_Zero]

what are McCains?Serving in the military is not a qualification especially when you graduate 890 out of 894 from the academy.

One thing about the Military Academies. Having lived at the United States Military Academy where my father was stationed, having sponsored Cadets (so we have had interaction with cadets) and my uncle is a graduate of the Class of 197x, I can truly say the majority of cadets that graduate in the top of their class go to work in big companies (like my Uncle who went to work for IBM designing Simulators and now works with Northern Command in some deep mountain in certain capacities) and the paradigm has always been that the generals come from the lower half of the class. (For right or wrong thats what is said). I am sure there are exceptions like General Wesley Clark. I remember as a kid my father in order to reach O-5 had to go to the Command and General Staff College. [As a funny tidbit I have technically been through the course work of CGSC as a kid. My father was gracious enough to let me 'help' as he did he course work at home. I loved the maps and the manuals.] I wonder if the Navy has the same requirements that the US Army has for the Comand and General Staff College and War College? I will have to check with my dad.

I just saw this quote the other night and had a good chuckle. McCain responding to criticism that he wasnt originally from Arizona when he ran for a Congressional seat:

Quote »Listen, pal. I spent 22 years in the Navy. My father was in the Navy. My grandfather was in the Navy. We in the military service tend to move a lot. We have to live in all parts of the country, all parts of the world. I wish I could have had the luxury, like you, of growing up and living and spending my entire life in a nice place like the First District of Arizona, but I was doing other things. As a matter of fact, when I think about it now, the place I lived longest in my life was Hanoi.[/quote]Back to the question, here is the question that I posed last night:

But my question about Obama would be, how much experience and how much can you accomplish with 2 years on the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations and 2 years on the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee?

John McCain spent 23 years in the United States Navy obtaining the rank of O-6. He had command experience in Combat being a Squadron Leader. Of those 23 years, John McCain spent 6 years as a POW. While a prisoner, he was offered a chance to be released as a part of a North Vietnamese propaganda trick. Since his father was an Admiral in the US Navy, the North Vietnamese decided to capitalized on a good will gesture. The hope was to drive a wedge in moral with the troops by showing preferential treatment to an officer’s son. John McCain didn’t fall for it and suggested that other soldiers be release. This speaks volume to his character.

McCain has spent 21 years on the Senate Armed Services Committee.

We use to have a trainer at work that said, “I cant teach experience you just have to do the job to gain it.” John McCain as I see it has about 50 years of experience in leadership rolls, practical experience and accomplishments. To Obama’s 4?

John McCain having attended and graduted from the United States Naval Academy has learned, trained in and had been surrounded by leadership and command experience.

[rn79870]

I might remind you that one of our presidents faced challenges unseen by any other president, yet that president had never served in the US senate, nor had he been a governor. Geo. Washington.

Why does everyone fail to understand that this country is based on a single document and several hundred years of examining that document. Our laws, our system of government stems from the constitution. Obama has an understanding of that document that far, far exceeds McCains.

Obama "lack if experience" will result in more thoughtful, deliberate decisions, and a careful eye towards the result of those decisions. Obama has another asset that Washington hasn't seen in 8 years, intelligence. We've functioned with a 90+IQ leading the government, now let's let a 150+ IQ drive for a while. (comparative IQs)

In short, Obama has the raw material necessary to be a great president. He isn't old and tired, nor is it the product of the 50 and 60s. He has had to work hard to get where he is, in fact, he has probably had to work harder than another due to his "race." He isn't a quitter nor is he one to blame someone else.

We have to choose between Obama and McCain. If nothing else this means we must evaluate two individuals in respect to the one we believe will be better for America. In this regard one appears to be headed towards more of the same, and one offers, to some degree a change. Change is needed and one person is offering it. It's not like we have a page of candidates, which, might result in better choices for us.

Lastly, what does serving in the legislature of the US for all so many years offer in the way of experience, when the legislature has failed us for most of those years.

I'll say it again though, McCain is a patriot and an American hero. I respect him and thank him for his service. But, in all seriousness, it's time for him to retire.

[wingFeather]

Does anyone else find it hilarious that the "common man's" president went to an ivy league school? Obama is such a joke

[wingFeather]

He has had to work hard to get where he is, in fact, he has probably had to work harder than another due to his "race."

See above post. He has had quite a posh existence. Also, I'm sure has enjoyed many perks as a black man... as anyone facing reverse discrimination has experienced.

[rn79870]

See above post. He has had quite a posh existence. Also, I'm sure has enjoyed many perks as a black man... as anyone facing reverse discrimination has experienced.

The fact that you don't like Obama is apparent. Why not put a little effort into understanding why instead of simply assuming and guessing about these things.

[Cold_Zero]

I might remind you that one of our presidents faced challenges unseen by any other president, yet that president had never served in the US senate, nor had he been a governor. Geo. Washington.

Just throwing this out there, dont you think that Abe Lincoln saw the same type of thing with the Civil War and James Madison saw the same with the War of 1812? I assume when you talk about George Washington you are talking about commanding the Continental Army during the Revolutionary War? Maybe I missed something. BTW General of the Armies George Washington was 1 of only two men in our history to achieve the rank of Genrals of the Armies.

[BigMACKenzie]

oh yeah all that time in Indonesia was really posh and posh existence bc or revers racism? wow cue the banjo music. not that I support affirmative action but there is nothing forward thinking ppl can do to change the fact that some ppl are going to look at you like your going to rob the store you are in just bc you are black, you can't band aid the reality of racial profiling and discrimination, two things you cannot deny exist in america today in abundance. Thats so backwards to say he has it easy because someone may have given him the benefit of the doubt at some time(s) in his life. read a book.

[rn79870]

Generals generally make poorer presidents. They are used to a dogmatic approach and not a give and take common to solid negotiating skills. I'd rather have a skilled negotiator than a general of the army.

My point about Geo. Washington was that he lacked all the "skills" that many are touting McCain possesses that qualify him for leadership in a difficult time.

Maybe it's time we addressed the problems our country faces and who would be best qualified to "fix" them. I don't see a military man's skill set as necessary for the direction I believe the US should be taking. I see a person who is capable of rational, intelligent discussion as more of an asset to the trials ahead.

BTW, good topic here 96.

[wingFeather]

read a book.

Why not put a little effort into understanding why instead of simply assuming and guessing about these things.

It amazes me how quickly "open minded" people spout judgements when their liberal democrat way of life is challenged.

Yes, I have put forth great effort in understanding these issues. Yes, I can read. Thank you for the condascending dismissal of my arguments. Sorry you're not open to other points of view...

[WDRacing]

3.) If you think the next President should be unqualified, save us all some time and just say so.

I can end this thread right here...wicked easy to.

Obama doesn't have military experience or what any person would consider a vast amount of governing experience either. Those are simple facts...

But he's very educated, speaks with fluidity, is well versed in the rolls of politics and law and does have SOME experience when it comes to actual governing. The people that are voting for him fully except the above things and consider them to be qualifications enough to be our next President.

I must add that we also know that Obama is not the best this country has to offer, nor are his qualifications anywhere near the best that we could offer if there was an Independent willing to run. But he's only running against one person. He's not running against our very best or even close IMO. In this case we feel that Obama will be a better President then McCain. THAT is why we're voting for him. If you really don't like an individual, then you'll find that it's far easier to vote AGAINST him then it is to vote FOR someone else. In this case the majority of the country is willing to concede that even though Obama does lack experience, he will make a better President then his current opponent.

So you can tell me he's unqualified all day, but he's going to be the next President of the United States because his opponent is someone we don't want in office. Bush may not be running for President, but having him as the Republican President prior to this election is swaying votes away from the Republican side. It's human nature to want bad things changed. Whether or not Bush was at fault for any of the current issues, the people feel that he has done poorly and that unequivocally hurts the next Republican to run for office.

Obama FTW

/thread

[rn79870]

It amazes me how quickly "open minded" people spout judgements when their liberal democrat way of life is challenged.

Yes, I have put forth great effort in understanding these issues. Yes, I can read. Thank you for the condascending dismissal of my arguments. Sorry you're not open to other points of view...

Wing, I would love to discuss the issues with you, but when your "arguments" consist of;

See above post. He has had quite a posh existence. Also, I'm sure has enjoyed many perks as a black man... as anyone facing reverse discrimination has experienced.

then there is little room for dialog. If you have valid points, please make them. Otherwise, you really can't expect intelligent responses to the innuendos you have posted.

[96Qowner]

Interesting, so far.

One person came up with one qualification - Obama went to an Ivy League school. Others make references to McCain and Bush, but no attempt to offer any qualifications. Some admit that they prefer the unqualified guy.

Obama "lack if experience" will result in more thoughtful, deliberate decisions, and a careful eye towards the result of those decisions.

Oh, puleeease, do yourself a favor and reread that. Anyone who offered that reasoning in a job interview would get a snicker in response. C'mon. Would YOU hire the guy who said that? Seriously? *chuckle*

We can do better, folks. Here, I'll offer one: Not only did Obama graduate from an Ivy League school, he was President of the Harvard Law review in 1990 (the same year Senator McCain successfully pushed Reagan into endorsing Arizona's referendum to recognize MLK Day).

[WDRacing]

Interesting, so far.

I can end this thread right here...wicked easy to.

/thread

Did you miss where I ended the thread? You're supposed to accept defeat and stop posting

[skylndrftr]

One thing about the Military Academies. Having lived at the United States Military Academy where my father was stationed, having sponsored Cadets (so we have had interaction with cadets) and my uncle is a graduate of the Class of 197x, I can truly say the majority of cadets that graduate in the top of their class go to work in big companies (like my Uncle who went to work for IBM designing Simulators and now works with Northern Command in some deep mountain in certain capacities) and the paradigm has always been that the generals come from the lower half of the class.

As has already been mentioned, Generals don't make the best leaders for some pretty obvious stylistic issues. And there is a big difference between bottom half and bottom 5. I would also like to point out that I have never heard of the US Military Academy

I honestly think this race is more about disqualifications than qualifications, as most politics has become nowadays and I agree with WDR that Obama is likely to win because McCains biggest disqualification (there are a lot) is Bush.

That being said, I am couting Obama's vote for immunity for warrantless wiretapping and McCaisn refusal to show up and at least vote on a serious constitutional issue as a pretty disappointing Mettric on the state of the conutry.

[96Qowner]

LOL, I thought you already admitted that you don't care about qualifications or experience?

If so, I'll gladly accept "defeat".

You sure you can't come up with SOME qualifications?

[WDRacing]

LOL, I thought you already admitted that you don't care about qualifications or experience?

If so, I'll gladly accept "defeat".

You sure you can't come up with SOME qualifications?

Don't need to, the majority of the country is voting for him

[Cold_Zero]

Generals generally make poorer presidents. They are used to a dogmatic approach and not a give and take common to solid negotiating skills. I'd rather have a skilled negotiator than a general of the army.

Bob, I tend to agree with you. In our history generals dont necessarily make good Presidents. I think Grant is one example that stands out. I merely pointed these things out about John McCain because it shows leadership, good judgment making and good character. Not that Obama may or may not have these features. Contrary to public opinion I dont think being a skilled negotiator nor orator (young, trendy, vibrant.....) are qualifications of a good President. But my point was in a lot of these posts is that the American Public though out our history tend to pick people with Military backgrounds. I saw a slide with all the US Presidents and the ones that served in the military. It should also be pointed out that McCain was an O-6 grade. Typically the O-7 grade starts you on a Political career path in the Military. At that point you tend to have more Command and Administrative experience.

Quote »My point about Geo. Washington was that he lacked all the "skills" that many are touting McCain possesses that qualify him for leadership in a difficult time. [/quote]What skills did George Washington lack? He is a very interesting man and to some prior to the end of the Revolutionary War he was a complete failure in everything he did. But hey, He WAS a Virginian so he up there in my book!

Quote »Maybe it's time we addressed the problems our country faces and who would be best qualified to "fix" them. I don't see a military man's skill set as necessary for the direction I believe the US should be taking. I see a person who is capable of rational, intelligent discussion as more of an asset to the trials ahead.

BTW, good topic here 96.[/quote]Yes, this is a great topic. I tend to agree with you here Bob. Because of the current involvement with the United States in two wars and the Global War on Terror people DO over emphasize the military and military experience. Maybe it is better to take a step back and analyze what all Obama and McCain have accomplished and what type(s) of men they are. John McCain has been on Committees dealing with POW's, Indian Affairs, Commerce, the Interior and yes the Senate Armed Services committee. I am probably missing some other committees. I think my question still stands, from 1997-2008 what has Obama Accomplished as a politician and what experience has he or could he have gained? He has been a politician for 11 years. Now not to diminish his community (civil) service. I think that this swings into his favor, just as McCain's 23 year military service helps him.

Personally, Obama can have all sorts of mad experience and qualifications. The reason why I am not going to vote for him is that his beliefs are incongruent with my own personal beliefs. Plain and simple.

bud

[BigMACKenzie]

Don't need to, the majority of the country is voting for him

sadly this is no longer enough to be president, but lets just hope the outdated electoral system doesn't try and shmoo him like it did gore. I say we go back to the old system where the tallest guy with the best hair wins. To stay on topic (for once) I would like to say that obama's interest in social justice for our citizens and immigrants and willingness to back out of iraq qualifies him to be our leader?

[Cold_Zero]

And there is a big difference between bottom half and bottom 5. I would also like to point out that I have never heard of the US Military Academy

Fair enough, I will ask my dad for his USMA book and look up some of the famous people that either didnt graduate from USMA or graduated lowest in their class. I think you would be pleasantly surprised as to who shows up on the list.

Also, because you have never heard of the United States Military Academy (USMA) it must not exist. j/k It is located at West Point, New York and I have lots of fond memories of living their. Go Army, Beat Canoe U! As a side note some years ago when I toured the US Naval Academy, I wanted to paint their submarine with Army's color scheme. I thought that, even though the MP's would arrest me, my dad would be glad to post my bail (if any) and be proud of me. Gold and Black Submarines are such the fashion statement.

[rn79870]

Interesting, so far.

One person came up with one qualification - Obama went to an Ivy League school. Others make references to McCain and Bush, but no attempt to offer any qualifications. Some admit that they prefer the unqualified guy.

Oh, puleeease, do yourself a favor and reread that. Anyone who offered that reasoning in a job interview would get a snicker in response. C'mon. Would YOU hire the guy who said that? Seriously? *chuckle*

We can do better, folks. Here, I'll offer one: Not only did Obama graduate from an Ivy League school, he was President of the Harvard Law review in 1990 (the same year Senator McCain successfully pushed Reagan into endorsing Arizona's referendum to recognize MLK Day).

You keep missing one issue Brian pointed out. It isn't a matter of who is "perfect" for the job, it is a matter of who is better qualified for the job. You're assuming that the qualifications necessary come from military service and being a member of the legislative branch for a few dozen years.

Let me point out that a military approach is one of the factors in many of the problems the US faces, and it has prooven to be a dismal method of solving political issues. (at least it has in the last half century).

Secondly, being a member of the legislative branch brings a little experience as well as a closet full of skeletons. I'd rather have a clean slate in that regard.

Basically 96, you're hiding behind an issue (experience) that lacks any coorelation to the skills needed by a president. Government is dynamic, and your candidate has limited experience with the military (and not even high ranking command experience at that) and experience with a congress that has consistently failed the nation. How is that beneficial.

I see a legal background, as well as a deep understanding of the constitution as more beneficial than skills piloting a navy jet in combat.

Now, it is simple enough to see why McCain is unqualified. Look at his resolution of the fuel crisis. Summer relief for gas taxes. That's really great, and solves nothing, but that's what you can expect from a career politician, freebies and lip service all designed to get votes at the expense of issue resolution.

Nope, experience is a facade that the conservatives are hiding behind in critising Obama, and it is a shallow one at that.

[skylndrftr]

Honestly Qowner, while I could (see below) its kinda irrelovant to me. I am voting for him mostly because there is no other viable choce to get elected between him and McCain, and McCain scares the crap outa me and not in a good way.

Obama qualifications:-Taugh constitutional law (althoguh may have forgotten some things now)-worked to foster neighborhood development throughout his life.-long time leader in a state legislative role (I think this is much more of a qualification because of the more direct involvement as opposed to what goes on at the senate level.)-Worked as a civil rights attorney-Has lived abroad (especially in a Muslim country). He may have been young but its still the experience.-Is not and Has not been involved with military leadership ( I think this is a neccesary qualificationat this point in history as a protection for the American people).

This is, again, not to say I am entirely pleased with Obama as a candidate but hes not unqualified.

[rn79870]

Fair enough, I will ask my dad for his USMA book and look up some of the famous people that either didnt graduate from USMA or graduated lowest in their class. I think you would be pleasantly surprised as to who shows up on the list.

In all fairness, I think you can add Gen MacArthur to the list of those who barely made it yet turned out to be a great leader. Get a copy of "The Long Gray Line" and you'll look see what they go through - it's far, far more than merely academic.

I'd love to continue this, but I've got work to do for a few hours. I'll be back later today.

[96Qowner]

You keep missing one issue Brian pointed out. It isn't a matter of who is "perfect" for the job, it is a matter of who is better qualified for the job. You're assuming that the qualifications necessary come from military service and being a member of the legislative branch for a few dozen years.

I assume no such thing. I'm just asking if ANY Obama supporters can actually list ANY qualifications. I was hoping for something more meaningful than he's smart or educated or talks pretty, or worked as an organizer in the Chicago black community until he could start running for political office. Whether Obama is qualified has nothing to do with any opponent.

Nope, experience is a facade that the conservatives are hiding behind in critising Obama, and it is a shallow one at that.

Again, nope, not hiding behind anything at all. It's not such a wacky idea to think that a President should have some qualifications and experience for the job, at least not in my opinion. Clearly, the vast majority of Obama supporters disagree. I might even suggest that if anyone is hiding, it's the Obama fans.

We can end this thread right now, as Brian said, if we can all admit, from this time forward, that Obama fans just don't care about their guy being unqualified. It's the response I always end up getting from them. Simply ... amazing.

[96Qowner]

This is, again, not to say I am entirely pleased with Obama as a candidate but hes not unqualified.

Well, if that's all you can come up with, he IS unqualified. You described a rather ordinary American citizen. A guy with all of those qualifications lives on my block in my modest neighborhood in Fargo, ND. No way should he be President. He wouldn't have a clue.

http://www.mathern.org/more/in...38636

But then, you DID admit that Obama's qualifications aren't important to you.

[wingFeather]

Is not and Has not been involved with military leadership ( I think this is a neccesary qualificationat this point in history as a protection for the American people).

How is lack of war experience a positive/qualification for Presidency?

[Encryptshun]

A guy with all of those qualifications lives on my block in my modest neighborhood in Fargo, ND. No way should he be President. He wouldn't have a clue.

But isn't that a founding principle of this nation? That anyone can be President (so long as they don't owe allegiance to a foreign nation and are over age 35)? I have seen people with zero qualifications exceed mightily at a given task. I have seen very qualified people crumble. That said, maybe this would be more constructive if you set some parameters around what you consider to be a "valid qualification to become President." What constitutes as a "qualification" is otherwise a VERY subjective matter.

So far I've heard two from the McCain camp: Executive experience and Military experience.

Draw out the sandbox and we'll play in it. Otherwise the whole debate is moot.

[wingFeather]

Obama is very qualified to raise taxes, waste our hard-earned dollars and tear down our nation's defenses.

That is three qualifications right there!

[wingFeather]

Quote »McCain is old.[/quote]I hear open-minded liberals say this quite often.

Age is a poor a reason to pick someone to be President.