Offroad/rally suspension and tire suggestions?

[titanium240]

Due to my rural area and lack of paved roads I would like to set up the 240sx for a little offroading. No mudding, just backroads and minor 2-tracks...well, maybe a few shallow floodings. What could I do to give a 240 a wider/taller stance?

[4felix20]

instead of 'lifting' it like you would a truck, i say just leave the suspension stock (it's pretty high already, right?) and put on some 17" wheels with some fat tires...like 270/40/17 or something. not sure really about tire size, just shooting that out there for example. but you would want to get something with a high first number.

that should make it sit pretty high up...lol

[w1ngzer0]

17" are you kidding me? 15" for sure. I currently live out in the boondocks. Where i slide around in the dirt daily. I can tell you 17" rims would get owned so fast lol.....

I easly slide and control my car in dirt with some generic brand tire. Just make sure it has the right tred

[4felix20]

smaller rims spin much easier in the dirt and gravel. a larger rim with a bigger tire (no low profile tires) should help alot. plus, with a bigger tire, there's more cushion to soften the rough roads. i say 17" wheels just for the lifting effect. 16" with big tires would be good too.

[w1ngzer0]

And what about clearance issues? To tall = rub all day long :P

Thats why i recommended just sticking with 15" so you know you have that... tire absorbtion when you go over a ditch....

[Bandit240]

Ive been where you are now. I just had my 240 at stock level. As for tires, i had firestone firehawks, 195-60-R15. I know Firestone, but they had great grip. Ive run gravel and rocky roads at 70 all day and never lost grip. Just make sure the windscreen washers work great and you have good wipers.

[titanium240]

Okay, I see how stock suspension and large tires (16") would be good for dirt/gravel, but would this be tall enough to go through a 10" flooded over backroad? I know, get a truck, but a 4-cyl 4x4 Nissan Pickup gets drastically lower mileage than a 240sx (18MPG compared to 24MPG). I just want to see what kind of crap I can get one of these puppies to go through.

So back to the topic. Since I'm knowlege-less on suspension setups, would adjustable-height coilovers do the trick, or just stiffer springs maybe?
Modified by titanium240 at 11:29 AM 5/15/2005

[Bandit240]

Theres nothing short of a boat to get through a 10foot flooded road. Now if you meant 10inches, hell yea it will work. Ive had my 240SX in 2feet of water before with no issues(other than a little water seeping in the doors).

[titanium240]

haha, my bad I meant 10"...so you had traction through that 2' of water...this sounds promising..I'm just worried about dipping the engine in the water and cracking it, did you have any steam on that endeavor?

Haha, think of this guys - a KA24DE-T mud monster...

[w1ngzer0]

possible. But if your seriously wanting to get into the rally scene. You need to read over the rules on the rally events.

[titanium240]

possible. But if your seriously wanting to get into the rally scene. You need to read over the rules on the rally events.

Heh, not really looking to get into any sanctioned events, just playing around on the backroads and exploring my area (lived here all my life, but I don't know the roads). I hate competitions...

[Bandit240]

Oh yea plenty of steam. It was only about 20ft wide and i hit it hauling ***, so i think i more hydroplaned across it. 240's are very amazing cars, they will do alot of things you would never see a sports car doing. Ive climbed a 40-50long 45deg slope with mine in the mud before. Kicks *** to see little rednecks with their jaws on the ground after watching a sports car run that hill.

[xckid]

What if you have a se model with sport tuned Factory suspension and hicas Can you still rally. sound like a lot of fun

[w1ngzer0]

when your in the dirt just remember to turn early if your going to slide a corner.

[PantherRacer]

oh yeah, that early turn in saves a lot, cuz damn....turn in to late and it gets kinda scary...but sliding in dirt is the best...I think that's the reson why the terc is all beat up now lol.

[HashiriyaS14]

This thread is making me miss my WRX

[titanium240]

I hear ya, that's what I'd be getting if I could afford it, but being a jobhunting junior in high school forces me upon a cheaper 240sx...wait, that's not exactly a bad thing

[NiSmo240luvR]

So back to the topic. Since I'm knowlege-less on suspension setups, would adjustable-height coilovers do the trick, or just stiffer springs maybe?

you definitely would want softer springs for rally type stuff....also i remember reading somewhere that Tein makes offroad coilovers as well as another brand or two. search around maybe you can find something...

[titanium240]

yeah, searching would be a good idea...*smacks forehead* "IDIOT!"I'll post back when I find something, ramble on!

[gogg]

Interesting topic, very interesting topic... I used to do lots of offroading in a 4x4 tercel 13" rims and small all-season tires. I managed to get through some nice sized mud holes without 4x4 even engaged. A 240sx would be quite easy to set up for offroading, I'm not an expert in this area but since I've done it before i can point you in the right direction, and it shouldn't cost all that much either to have some good ol fashoned fun in the mud.

As we all know the 240sx features massive suspension travel and ride height for a car that suppose to be pretty "sporty" stock. I'd suggest keeping the springs and struts like they are, and make sure the struts aren't oil-leaking. Next, if your car doesn't have VLSD, get it, your going to need it, 2wd is better than 1wd. Also, your going to want either stock or aftermarket mud flaps. Next and probably most important is your wheel and tire choices. You have tons of room to work with because 240s feature very large wheel-wells. You might want to remove those plastic things and find some sort of way to block off mud from the engine bay. On the drivers fender side your going to have to relocate the harness if you plan on putting nice sized tires. Just zip tie it out of the way on the side of the fender instead of the stock location which is the top of the wheel well. Now, if your going to be doing rally style driving -- this isn't my expertise (although I did do ALOT of it in my tercel), but I think I can aim you in the right direction, I suggest talking to some rally guys and find out a good setup from them for RWD cars. Just personally I'd say stagger your sizes and get something in the range of 15x7 in the front and 15x8 in the rear, or something along those lines. Beadlock isn't a bad idea since your going to be sliding, if you don't want to pay extra for that then I'd suggest using a mounting process I've heard about for running stretched tires (even though your going to want to run "correct" sized tires). This mounting process will make sure you dont get any mud, water, etc in the tire while sliding, and its cheap as free. Basically when the tire is on the rim but not yet quick inflated and popped over the bead; spray starter fluid or ether on the part that will be touching the rim, light it on fire and hit the lever to inflate and pop the tire onto the bead. This will give you a really nice seal. It's what they do for tractor tires. Another thing to consider for rally is sway bars, stock suspension + lateral g's = lots o body roll, to control this I'd say get the adjustable suspention techniques bars (front and rear). Now if your going to be doing hardcore offroad, mudding, and mudholes. etc (like all the big trucks do) your going to need a more drastic setup. Pulling fenders, rolling fenders, even cutting fenders might be necessary depending on how far your willing to go. Whatever rims you get will have to have very low offset and I'd say 13-14" rims would be what your looking for, both front and back probably around 8 inches wide. You shouldn't have to worry about sidewall flex so go with big wide tires. And actually now that im thinking about it, it wouldn't be all that hard to put a body lift for the rear with some custom subframe spacers. Your gonna need to check out problem areas for water and mud in the engine bay (like for electronics) and protect them as needed. And now the extras: skid plate, auxilary lights, air intake relocation, yosamity sam mud flaps, etc.

There, thats about all I have to say. I think your more into the rally aspect of this. Be sure to respond if so... a rally 240 is a cool idea.

I think that's the reson why the terc is all beat up now lol.

terc as in tercel??

And another thing, someone metioned getting height adjustable coil springs, not a good idea since most of these have crazy rates that are way too stiff for offroad. (this goes for coilovers too)
Modified by gogg at 5:11 PM 5/17/2005

[titanium240]

Hehe, I'm getting goosebumps from all the attention I never thought this thread would get!

I'm a little torn on the decision for rally/mudding...I don't think I want to hit any huge mudholes but I'm pretty sure there will be a few fairly large cross-road floodings down by the swamp, I think the deepest was 1.5' deep last time I checked (last weekend) and it's a bit wet this time of year, but there are deeper ones around here... I'm beginning to ponder the sealing of the engine bay...sheet metal comes to mind but I don't want to add too much weight, you know? I'll talk to a couple of my buddies about this.

I'm figuring on a 1.5 way KAAZ differential and some pretty aggressive treads to handle traction on small rims as you suggested (I believe stockers are 15s arent they?). If I wanted to set up for rally I'd go with 15s in the front, 16s in the back. And I prefer to pay for beadlock... And mudflaps...heh, I'll gank the set off my older brother's half-wrecked Sonoma

As for suspension what do you suggest? I think Tein type RS (http://tein.com/rsdamp.html) look pretty good, height and dampning adjustable is a good feature I guess. Dampning is how stiff they are, right? If so, I think this would be perfect for the transition between mudding and rally, but I could be full of crap:

"...I'm knowlege-less on suspension setups..."

haha.

Sway bars - I know they are good for street and rally, but mudding? Hah, read the quote! I'm not going to worry about skidplates for the time being but I've been enfatuated with aux. roofline lights on S13s for some time...and a custom made "snorkle" would be nice...I think the snorkle would be a bit of overkill!

Wow, that's a BIG reply!

[gogg]

Hehe, I'm getting goosebumps from all the attention I never thought this thread would get!

I'm a little torn on the decision for rally/mudding...I don't think I want to hit any huge mudholes but I'm pretty sure there will be a few fairly large cross-road floodings down by the swamp, I think the deepest was 1.5' deep last time I checked (last weekend) and it's a bit wet this time of year, but there are deeper ones around here... I'm beginning to ponder the sealing of the engine bay...sheet metal comes to mind but I don't want to add too much weight, you know? I'll talk to a couple of my buddies about this.

I'm figuring on a 1.5 way KAAZ differential and some pretty aggressive treads to handle traction on small rims as you suggested (I believe stockers are 15s arent they?). If I wanted to set up for rally I'd go with 15s in the front, 16s in the back. And I prefer to pay for beadlock... And mudflaps...heh, I'll gank the set off my older brother's half-wrecked Sonoma

As for suspension what do you suggest? I think Tein type RS (http://tein.com/rsdamp.html) look pretty good, height and dampning adjustable is a good feature I guess. Dampning is how stiff they are, right? If so, I think this would be perfect for the transition between mudding and rally, but I could be full of crap: haha.

Sway bars - I know they are good for street and rally, but mudding? Hah, read the quote! I'm not going to worry about skidplates for the time being but I've been enfatuated with aux. roofline lights on S13s for some time...and a custom made "snorkle" would be nice...I think the snorkle would be a bit of overkill!

Wow, that's a BIG reply!

Yes, big reply for a very cool thread! And now another big reply!

Sealing the bay - The only areas to focus on are the corners of the bay in the front, both sides have fuse/switch boxes which would be sensitive to water/mud. The passanger side has the battery/ fuse box/ part of the engine harness and a body harness IIRC. The battery would be best if it was relocated inside the cabin. I'd then say to move as much of the harness towards the top of the bay near the top of the wheel well, as much away from the ground as possible. Using sheets of heat resistant plastic, thin sheet(s) of metal, or lexan are all ideas for blocking the elements from the wiring on this side. On the other (drivers) side you have the air intake and switch box. Not much should be needed over here, however the best place to take in air for the car would be as high up as possible. Theres 3 options I can think of: first is to get a vented headlight cover and seal off the intake so it only gets air from there, second is a ghetto hood opening, you could always bondo on a universal vent here and block off, and the third is a snorkel, not practical unless you plan on sitting in deep deep water for a while, which would be a bad idea in the first place. Some other electrical connectors to watch for are the transmission sensors ... maybe wrap them in something, I dunno, they aren't really too important in the first place and they are exposed to rain water so I don't think anything really needs to be done. The absolute minimal you'd have to do to make your car more water/mud worthy is protect the fuse box, switch box, and battery (and this shouldn't be all that hard).

The LSD - 1.5 sounds like a really good idea, especially for rally. If you can afford it this is the best bet. If not, get a stock vlsd; open differential is very very bad .

The wheels - Ok, here's the thing, I just got my rims I ordered in today, and after going over them I think they are perfect for your sort of application. They are steel and really heavy duty, they are made for dirt track racing and stuff like that. They look exactly like the rims you see on jeeps and trucks with huge mudding tires. 15x7 in the front and 15x8 in the back is what I got, but I think you'd be better off with something like 15x7 all around with around 0 offset. http://www.diamondracingwheels.com they take a while to come in, but thats because they custom make them for you, give them a call and tell them exactly what you plan on doing, they will hook you up with what you need, not only that but they have really nice prices, I think I payed $330 for all 4 of mine shipped.

zerothread?id=117372 < thread with my new wheels

Tires - Depending on the rims you get will depend on the tires you can fit. The less you offset is the taller and wider your tires can be. http://www.fourstarmotorsports...4.htmMost of the tires on that page are good sizes for a 15x7. 195 is going to be a bit of strech and 205 a bit less, I think 215 is almost the correct size, but you'd probably want something with a strech.

The suspension - Ok, you keep going back to coilovers, I don't think this is a good idea. Have you ever been in a car with coils? Even on the minimal settings its way way stiffer than stock, and on a bumpy gravel road etc your butt would be red in no time. If you want to stick more to the rally style driving and need something with more control ... you know the roads your driving best ... and well if you want something lower to the ground for more control (if you plan on hitting higher speeds) I'd say your looking at the Eibach pro-kit springs, they aren't super stiff so you should be good, and they lower the car about an inch (more or less depending on what kind of weight reduction you've got going). However, lowering the car might not be a good idea, like I said before you should know whether or not you want to go lower. Stock springs migh be your best bet. As for struts, KYB AGX's ... I don't have them but I know these are what you'd want. The minimal setting is the same as stock, and the max is either 30% or %123 firmer than stock depending on whether you get the 4 way adjustable or 8 way. Rally car setups require adjustablity for different courses ... this is what you'd want.

Swaybars - If you going to be going fast sideways swaybars are probably going to be needed to reduce body roll, if you choose to stay with the stock springs they'd be needed even more. Suspention technique adjutable sways are probably a good idea. If your heading in the mudding/extreme off-roading direction swaybars will reduce the car's flex which isn't a good thing for these situations.

Skidplate - I took a look underneath my beast 240 and from what i can see it wouldn't be that hard to put a skidplate on without welding, just something to cut out a sheet of metal and something to drill some holes in metal. The front tension rod brackets have some screw holes in them for what I guess is some long missing plastic engine protector, connecting the plate here and bending it under the front sway and attaching it somehow to the cross member and frame rails would protect everything critcal (oilpan, PS lines, part of the exhaust). It would even be removable for working on your car.

Strut tower bars - $30 for some off ebay, always a good idea.

Well thats all for now, someone with RWD rally experience please chime in !!

Some pictures of the roads your talking about would be really nice too.
Modified by gogg at 8:55 PM 5/18/2005

[justmerging]

smaller rims spin much easier in the dirt and gravel. a larger rim with a bigger tire (no low profile tires) should help alot. plus, with a bigger tire, there's more cushion to soften the rough roads. i say 17" wheels just for the lifting effect. 16" with big tires would be good too.

270/40r17 is a low profile tire. Besides 17's with larger tires may not fit(depending on offset). Just get some 205/70r15 tires and you should be straight. just look for a grabby looking tread or an all-terrain tire.

[gogg]

270/40r17 is a low profile tire. Besides 17's with larger tires may not fit(depending on offset). Just get some 205/70r15 tires and you should be straight. just look for a grabby looking tread or an all-terrain tire.

Yea, but a 70 would be horrible for any rally style driving.

[gogg]

bump, i like this thread, but no one else has input.... ;/