Off Shore Drilling thread, part 2:

[wingFeather]

It would seem from the Off Shore Drilling thread that Obama has "come around", (or perhaps seen the light from the heavens that he talked about in his campaign?).

WRONG!

I guess I got my hopes up, because that thread was only rn's convenient repost of ONE PORTION of Obama's costly energy plan!

Read the rest... and weep:

Barack Obama released his “New Energy for America” plan today during his speech at Michigan State University. His entire energy plan is laid out here. Relieving America from its foreign oil addiction was the gist of his speech:

Without a doubt, this addiction is one of the most dangerous and urgent threats this nation has ever faced - from the gas prices that are wiping out your paychecks and straining businesses to the jobs that are disappearing from this state; from the instability and terror bred in the Middle East to the rising oceans and record drought and spreading famine that could engulf our planet.

Though there was some good in Obama’s speech and in his plan, it was mostly bad. The bad policies include:

Immediately Provide Emergency Energy Rebate: To compensate for the high costs of gas and energy prices and revamp the struggling economy, Obama conjured up a plan to give $500 to individuals and $1,000 to families as soon as this fall. The Foundry has written more extensively on this here, but to summarize this idea, it would reduce supply, increase the demand for gas, and rely on windfall profits taxes on big oil, which have been tried and failed miserably. Economist Don Boudreaux puts it this way: It’s like trying to put out a fire by dowsing it with jet fuel. Tapping the Strategic Petroleum Reserve: The SPR, created after the 1973-1974 Arab oil embargo, is a federally maintained petroleum stockpile intended to make up for any shortfall caused by a temporary supply disruption. Granted, an extra 3 million to 4 million barrels per day would lower prices at the margin, but the SPR could maintain that pace for no more than six months. After that, the price of oil would likely return to its previous level, and the SPR would be empty and thus no longer available for its intended purpose as an insurance policy against a supply disruption. What would Obama do if the U.S. were hit with a severe energy crisis and the SPR were tapped dry? Think of the national security and economic implications.

Cracking Down on Speculators: Speculators have been receiving a lot of the blame for the rise in oil prices, but this is misleading. Heritage economist David Kreutzer gives a good primer on how speculators can help consumers at the pump, and J.D. Foster writes that the speculators’ role in increased oil prices is marginal, at best. Ultimately, speculators do little to affect supply and demand.

Capping-and-Taxing: I mean, trading. Obama plans to implement an economy-wide cap-and-trade program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 80% below 1990 levels by 2050. The Lieberman-Warner cap-and-trade legislation that quickly died on the Senate floor in June proposed 70% reduction of 2005 levels by 2050. The Heritage Foundation released a study on the economic costs of the Lieberman-Warner climate change legislation that detailed the burden cap-and-trade legislation would impose on the economy. If the Lieberman-Warner bill would have imposed a $4.8 trillion hit to GDP by 2030 and nearly 1 million jobs lost in certain years, just imagine what Obama’s plan would do. The Heritage analysis of the Lieberman-Warner bill also projects a huge jump in energy prices, including gasoline. So, is Obama for lowering gas prices or raising them? Hmm. Renewable Fuels Mandates and Fuel Economy Standards: Under Obama’s new energy plan, 10% of America’s electricity will come from renewable sources by 2012, and 25% by 2025. Now that food prices have risen dramatically, there is bipartisan consent, along with statements from environmental and global hunger groups, that the ethanol mandate has been an absolute failure.

Furthermore, Obama proposes to have 1 million plug-in hybrid cars — cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon — on the road by 2015, and he suggests that they all be built here in America. (We’ll save the protectionist argument for another day.) The question now is: Where is the electricity generated that the hybrids receive? Howard Learner, executive director of the Environmental Law & Policy Center, a Chicago-based advocacy group notes that “plug-in hybrids are perhaps not good for all areas. … tates that are heavily coal, that equation doesn’t work out very well for the environment.” And aren’t hybrids more expensive?

America --> <--Obama

[rn79870]

Immediately Provide Emergency Energy Rebate:

Tapping the Strategic Petroleum Reserve:

Cracking Down on Speculators:

Capping-and-Taxing:

Interesting post. (?) It seems like Obama has a plan of action that you're against. Of course, I can't tell why becasue you've failed to provide a single reason other than your against Obama.

Why not address the 4 issues listed above and why they are or are not good for America. Merely mocking Obama adds something less than nothing to the thread. Actually, it may give some a reason to vote for him.

Oh, and I edited your thread title to make it less argumentive.

[wingFeather]

Of course, I can't tell why becasue you've failed to provide a single reason

Aren't the reasons self-evident

Giving every American a $1,000 check is stupid.

Using up our oil reserves leaves us sitting ducks.

Punishing investors is one more step towards a failed economy & govt.

Mandating percentage changes & electric cars is more BIG GOVT.

Did you seriously need me to explain this?

[AZhitman]

1) Immediately Provide Emergency Energy Rebate

2) Tapping the Strategic Petroleum Reserve

3) Cracking Down on Speculators

4) Capping-and-Taxing

5) 1 million plug-in hybrid cars — cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon — on the road by 2015, and he suggests that they all be built here in America.

1) And what was it the Obamallamas said about J-Mac's (ill-advised) 'gas tax vacation'? Ummm, yeah. And GWB's Economic Stimulus Package? Ummm, yeah. I'll expect ALL those people to call BO's campaign headquarters and tell him, "Dumb idea, Slick."

2) Dumb. Nothing more needs to be said.

3) Yep. Stick it to the capitalists and the people who actually contribute to the economy. Just because some people have money doesn't mean they're "bad" people, it doesn't mean they didn't work for it, and it doesn't mean the lazy amongst you deserve any of it.

4) More taxes, more restrictions, more government regulations. Standard libbyfare.

5) The best.

Maybe BO can come join us at DesertFuel.org... Interestingly, we're not getting any support from the left (politically or financially). Venture capitalists and bootstrap conservatives are driving this project.

Maybe BO hasn't gotten the memo that The Big Three are still churning out Navigators and Escalades and Hummers, they don't HAVE money for R&D right now, they're praying for a government bailout, and the current crop of hybrids represent a net petroleum LOSS, not gain.

But he's only trying to appeal to the people who don't know any better, so Mission Accomplished.

[AZhitman]

I can't tell why becasue you've failed to provide a single reason other than your against Obama.

Seemed pretty clearly laid-out to me.

[rn79870]

Aren't the reasons self-evident

No, not at all.

Giving every American a $1,000 check is stupid.

Hum, wonder if there was a precedent for that?

Using up our oil reserves leaves us sitting ducks.

Far from all, far.

Punishing investors is one more step towards a failed economy & govt.

Never mind that some of them have been indited for fraud in their investing practices.

Mandating percentage changes & electric cars is more BIG GOVT.

That's an opinion, nothing more.

Did you seriously need me to explain this?

Yes, and I'm still waiting. A little facts and a little less opinion perhaps. Thanks.

[rn79870]

Too much opinion and too little fact, just like wingFeather.

[Soravia]

This just shows how Obama is full of self-contradictions and nothing but a hypocrit.He called Hillary's gas-tax plan a gimmick without mentioning that her plan was supported by windfall tax, which by the way, is what he proposes to give everyone free cash on.

Rather than giving every person $500, 18 cents off the pump price will make a difference to people who really need it, transport companies, cab drivers, delivery people, etc.That in turns lowers food prices, help small business, reduce laid offs.

Obama politic is all about getting mass hysteria support. Every politically educated person knows that there are more un-informed people than informed people, so getting more votes is easier if you just trick the un-informed to your own side.

[rn79870]

Rather than giving every person $500, 18 cents off the pump price will make a difference to people who really need it, transport companies, cab drivers, delivery people, etc.That in turns lowers food prices, help small business, reduce laid offs.

Talk about a senseless promise. McCain proposed that 18.4 cent holiday for the summer months, Memorial Day through Labor Day 2008. And of course, McCain wouldn't take office, if at all, until some 4 months after that period has expired. I don't suppose anyone noticed the problem of his "hollow promise" and the fact that he never intended to deliver on it.

[smockers83]

I love these kinds of topics, they're my favorite.

Emergency Energy RebateApparently no one has really thought about this. If you give me money so I can afford my gasoline, money that you took by taxing the oil companies, where does that money go??? Oh yeah, straight back to the oil companies. With a tax rebate for energy, it'll drive up demand for gas, therefore prices and the oil companies are making even more profit. Then what happens when we spend our final cent of our rebate and prices are still high? We'll complain some more. So exactly what does this do to fix the situation? Nothing.

SPRWe don't need to tap the reserve. Are we in crisis? No. We can stop adding to it for now though, which has already been decided. What happens if we start tapping it and we actually do come to a real crisis? You tell me.

SpeculatorsThey really do help the market. Its just a few of them that give them a bad name. Futures trading allows oil companies to purchase oil in the future, oil that has yet to be delivered, hence the futures market. This isn't the market price for oil, these futures prices. If oil is bought now for $120/barrel for Sept delivery, and in September oil is actually $130, the oil companies can act on their futures contracts and purchase at $120. This lessens volatility and reduces market risk.

Cap-and-Trade ProgramI wouldn't go so far to say its the worst idea ever, but its up there. There is no way to capture CO2 gas and no way to scrub it at the moment, except to sequester it, but eventually it seeps out anyway. People point to the success of the EPA's current system on NOx and SO2, but that program is so much smaller than the carbon system and the technology to actually scrub those things out is available.

[Soravia]

Talk about a senseless promise. McCain proposed that 18.4 cent holiday for the summer months, Memorial Day through Labor Day 2008. And of course, McCain wouldn't take office, if at all, until some 4 months after that period has expired. I don't suppose anyone noticed the problem of his "hollow promise" and the fact that he never intended to deliver on it.

Those were not a promise, those were call to action to vote on it. But it was nailed down early by 'economic experts' (I don't know, like how 10 out of 10 dentist recommend Crest).

[rn79870]

Actually, the "gas crisis" has all but passed. The oil companies have desensitized us to 4 dollar gas by raising the price to 4.50+ and then making us feel great about gas "going down" to 4 bucks again. Pretty smart of them really.

[smockers83]

Maybe we have desensitized ourselves to $4 gas. All the oil companies did was provide what we wanted and made an honest profit on it. The reason they're making record profits is because the industry has never been this big and its a gargantuan industry and they just give us what we want. If a small business is making the same rate of return as them, should we get mad at them too? Its also a poor way to analyze a market and say that because you cannot look at peaks and troughs to make a good analysis.

[Scotte123]

Of course, I can't tell why becasue you've failed to provide a single reason other than your against Obama.

I thoughts the arguments against were pretty well laid out. What did you not understand about his arguments?

If the GeeDub stimulus was a bad idea what makes it good now? Sporting everyone a grand to buy gas will just increase demand for gas and given that the supply is controlled by those that hate us, that should drive gas prices up not down.

Tapping the reserve; the reserve is there in case there is another embargo. If it is used to increase market supply it will drive prices down until it is used up. Then we will be at our enemies mercy.

Capping emissions and carbon credits; How does that increase the supply of oil (the fundamental problem)? It just puts a larger burden on the working class so that rich people can feel good about flying around in private jets while at the same time creating a whole new beaurocracy. The whole Carbon issue brings up so many side issue's that it is it's own thread. Suffice it to say that it is a political issue not a scientific one.

150 MPG hybrids; This may be doable with new technology however a plug in gets it's energy off the grid and the grid has to be powered by something, that something has to burn. so you get your choice between fossil fuel emmisions or nuclear emissions. Wind is unreliable, spotty and very expensive. Solar could work to remove the power peaks off of the grid generators if the Government mandated replacing every shingle with a PV shingle.

However NO ONE has taken into consideration the cost of disposing the old batteries from the hybrids. They are very toxic (and expensive so never buy a used hybrid).

I find it amazing that no one want to tap the ample energy reserves we have. One of the largest oil deposits in the world is off the shore of San Diego and we won't tap it, a mistake the Mexican's are not making. They intend to slant drill into it and sell it back to us. And I don't think they have the same environmental concerns as we do.

To extract oil in the US you are monitored by 14 different agencies. If one CUP is spilled on the ground it is a$50k fine but counties hose used motor oil on the ground to control dust and are not penalized.

We have gone nuts. We consider good things to be bad and bad things to be good and are ridiculed by the world for our stupidity. We deserve someone as bad as Obama.

[Scotte123]

No, not at all.

Hum, wonder if there was a precedent for that?

Far from all, far.

Never mind that some of them have been indited for fraud in their investing practices.

(And how many crimials did Clinton PARDON before leaving the White House?)

That's an opinion, nothing more.

Yes, and I'm still waiting. A little facts and a little less opinion perhaps. Thanks.

[rn79870]

I thoughts the arguments against were pretty well laid out. What did you not understand about his arguments?

Those weren't his arguments, he merely cut and pasted them from here.http://blog.heritage.org/2008/...-plan/

I merely asked for his arguments.

And in the process, he neglected the rest of the article. Which I'll post here.

Increase Domestic Supply: Obama recently shifted his position on off-shore drilling, but the only time in his eight-page energy plan that offshore is mentioned is during his use or lose it initiative, which requires that “oil companies to diligently develop these leases or turn them over so that another company can develop them.” His plan recognizes that U.S. oil and gas play a critical role in America’s energy policy and includes drilling in Bakken Shale in Montana and North Dakota, Barnett Shale formation in Texas and the Fayetteville Shale in Arkansas, and the National Petroleum Reserve-Alaska (NPR-A). It also includes recovering more oil from existing fields and Prioritizing the construction of the Alaska Natural Gas Pipeline. Search his plan and see if you can find the words “outer continental shelf.” What about “ANWR”? Nothing.

Increase Nuclear Power: The presidential nominee does recognize that “It is unlikely that we can meet our aggressive climate goals if we eliminate nuclear power as an option.” But here’s the problem. His “New Energy for America” plan calls the geologic repository Yucca Mountain “not suitable.” Instead, he will lead federal efforts to look for safe, long-term storage. Yucca Mountain, as critical as it is to the management of used nuclear fuel, is not alone a long-term solution. The amount of used nuclear fuel already accumulated in this country is near the 70,000-ton statutory limit. Furthermore, if nuclear power production increased by 1.8% annually after 2010, a 120,000-ton (what most scientists believe its actual capacity is) Yucca would be full by 2030. Fortunately, Heritage’s Jack Spencer outlined a free-market approach to managing used nuclear fuel that would better serve consumers as well as the nuclear industry.

Those two snippets were cut and pasted from the same source, and I don't take credit for writing them.

[Scotte123]

Actually, the "gas crisis" has all but passed. The oil companies have desensitized us to 4 dollar gas by raising the price to 4.50+ and then making us feel great about gas "going down" to 4 bucks again. Pretty smart of them really.

Let's talk about BIG oil. The largest US oil co is Exxon Mobile ---it is number 14 in the world. it is behind every Arab oil producer and most South american producers. The record PROFITS is has made is a paltry 3% of its Gross revenue. No investor in the world would put money into something with that small of a return, meanwhile the US government is making a whopping 28% on every gallon sold. That means that the Governments profits are 8 times larger than the entire US oil industry combined.

The "Gas Crisis" hasn't passed, it's just getting started. Saying that we are addicted to oil is like saying your addicted to blood. Energy is what drives civilization forward.

[Soravia]

Actually, the "gas crisis" has all but passed. The oil companies have desensitized us to 4 dollar gas by raising the price to 4.50+ and then making us feel great about gas "going down" to 4 bucks again. Pretty smart of them really.

I'm expecting them to make a move depending on who becomes the next president. Oilcompanies are buying back their own stock instead of investing in new explorations, not that they have a lot of stable/cheap places to explore. With oil people, it's like cell phone companies, it's all about initial setup cost, after that, no matter what price they sell, it's all profit.

[rn79870]

...No investor in the world would put money into something with that small of a return...

Have you seen the return on CDs lately?

Look at this...Exxon's second-quarter net income rose 14 percent to $11.68 billion That's billion with a "B"

Shell, the world's second-largest non-government controlled oil company by market value, reported a 5 percent rise in second-quarter earnings to $7.9 billion,

Same comment. Billion.

U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama termed Exxon's earnings "outrageous" and called for an end to the "tyranny of oil."

"We are making very large profits, I know that," Shell Chief Executive Jeroen van der Veer told reporters on a conference call. "But we are making very large investments," he said, referring to investments in exploration and production

http://uk.reuters.com/article/...nel=0

[smockers83]

Have you seen the return on CDs lately?

Look at this...Exxon's second-quarter net income rose 14 percent to $11.68 billion That's billion with a "B"

Shell, the world's second-largest non-government controlled oil company by market value, reported a 5 percent rise in second-quarter earnings to $7.9 billion,

Same comment. Billion.

U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama termed Exxon's earnings "outrageous" and called for an end to the "tyranny of oil."

"We are making very large profits, I know that," Shell Chief Executive Jeroen van der Veer told reporters on a conference call. "But we are making very large investments," he said, referring to investments in exploration and production

http://uk.reuters.com/article/...nel=0

Of course they're making billions, what else do you expect? They can't be spending billions of dollars and only making millions. Its just a blame game because people can't comprehend how big this industry is. Its an industry in which essentially every American is involved in on a very regular basis unlike other industries. Its an honest profit whether you think its too large or not...just look up how much they spend and do the math. I think the rate of return in the market is small enough to prevent entry into it even.

[AZhitman]

U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama termed Exxon's earnings "outrageous" and called for an end to the "tyranny of oil."

Of course he would...

Lefties always get aggravated when someone makes a buttload of money - Hollywood gets a free pass, and some others, but God forbid a CEO and shareholders make a profit that seems "excessive" to them.

Those profits? Some of them are going in MY pocket, because my mutual funds are oil-heavy. So, now you want to take that away from me? Because some pinhead with a Robin Hood Complex thinks he understands economics? NO THANKS.

Re: Gas prices - Do some math, we're not much higher than 3 decades ago (adjusted for inflation), and we're pretty much on a par with other countries.

And before anyone lips off about "reducing dependence on foreign oil", let me know what YOU'RE doing to help. I'm doing my part (see desertfuel.org)....