Not like I didn't warn you

[Q45tech]

Last week, a Motiva terminal in Newark, N.J., that disperses ethanol-blended gasoline had to replace its supply entirely after water seeped in, prompting complaints from drivers.

“Customers were pulling away and not getting very far,” said Stan Mays, a spokesman for Motiva, a joint venture of Shell and Saudi Refining Inc.

He said the problem has since been fixed.

The Northeast — with the exception of New York and Connecticut, which switched to ethanol last year — and Texas are the two regions most affected by the switch because of their heavy use of MTBE-blended gasoline. Particularly affected are Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, D.C., Richmond, Va., and parts of Delaware and New Jersey, Sundstrom said. Parts of Texas had shortages two weeks ago.

Washington is the fourth state to enact an ethanol requirement. The other states are Minnesota, Montana and Hawaii. ....Missouri

And the government warned you:http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil...6.pdf

[PopPop]

Yes you did warn us D but, thought it would take longer to happen!

[Meaux]

Come on folks, can't you see we're saving the Earth!

Instead of 55 different "blends", we need 150! Everybody should share the same misery. Saving the Earth is not an easy task, we should all be willing to do our part, no matter how small and insignificant it really is, compared to what the rest ROW is doing. Hey, if we're "lucky" we will be paying $6 per gallon like they do in Denmark! Yipeee!!

Where are the Enviromentalists? They should be dancin' in the streets all over TV, celebrating the hardships they have caused!

Thank you Enviro-Whackos, for preventing Drillin' and Refinery Builds, now I can pay more for groceries, clothes and all other products shipped by trucks!!! Hey, I'm doing my part to "Save the Earth"!!! Boy I "feel" good!

Lets not leave the Federal and State Governments out of the cost, they are the "Real Gougers"...They do absolutly nothing to bring gasoline to market, but drive up the cost w/ taxes.

Have you hugged an Enviro-Whacko today?

[96Qowner]

Heheh, I'm with you on the environmentalists thing, but you really can't put this one on them. This is China, pure and simple - fast, fast development - no time to get new supply online. And the future looks grim. I don't imagine their energy use will be declining any time soon.

Also, unfortunately, most of the world's supply of crude, our "watering hole", is in the hands of people who have no particular use for it and no particular regard for our needs. Seems they have other pressing issues, more important to them than our need for oil.

So those whose livelihoods depend on the supply are extremely uncertain of the future - not inclined to offer any of it on slim margins.

[Meaux]

Yep, China has alot to do with the supply, with over a Billion people, they will begin to soak up more of the worlds supply, and does anybody think they will give a dang about clean air? Air dosen't stop at the borders, Mexico will be drilling in the Gulf soon, as will Cuba. I guess we'll sit on our hands and grow corn that cost more with less mileage, but we will "feel good", while the ROW does as it pleases...

I believe if we had built a few more refiniries (instead of none in 30 years)w/ todays technology, and started drilling for our "own" oil, this would not be such a big deal...Thanks to the whackos...

I remember the 70's waiting in line for gas, on odd and even days...Jimma Carter and his buddies were saying we were running out of oil, and would be completely dry by the year 2000...Well, it's 2006, and you can buy as much as you want, for the right price...

Didn't that Arab ask GW Bush not long ago, "What will you do with more oil, you can't refine it"?

What would happen if Iran cut off the Straight?

Better dust off those Porsches... :-)

I said in the 70's, "we should take the Middle East, if not for their good, our own"... :-)

[maxnix]

Mexico will be drilling in the Gulf soon...

Like for over 25 years?

[Jesda]

MTBE: The environmentalists giveth, and the environmentalists taketh away.

[Meaux]

Like for over 25 years?

Heck, I reckon...I just haven't paid much attention untill they announced they had located another huge oil field, and were gonna start new drilling...I think thats what you call it.., :-)

It's painfully obvious to me why GW Bush feels he has to kiss Mr. Fox's butt...

[Meaux]

This is an interesting cut...

Say the loan on your current vehicle is $10,000 and this 3-year-old car gets 20 miles per gallon. The new hybrid you’re considering costs $26,000 and gets 40 miles per gallon. Furthermore, let’s assume you drive 18,000 miles per year (1,500 miles per month). At an average price of $3 a gallon, your existing car will cost you $2,700 a year in gasoline (18,000/20 = 900 gallons a year x $3 a gallon). Filling up the tank for a year in the new one will be half that, or $1,350 a year.

Assuming you qualify for a $2,000 tax credit, you’d be spending roughly $14,000 to save $1,350 a year. This means it would take you more than 10 years to break even!

Even if gas prices hit $4 a gallon, it will take you nearly 8 years to break even.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m all for reducing our dependency on oil and cleaning up the environment. And it’s entirely possible that you think these goals are worth the extra money you’d be laying out. All I’m suggesting is that you not let your panic at the pump get the better of your judgment.

Right now dealers are getting top-dollar for these vehicles because American drivers are (literally) Shell-shocked.* Or Exxon-shocked, or BP-shocked. Do you think it’s possible that the cost of hybrids and alternative fuel cars will decline as manufacturers bring more to market and competition heats up? Might some of the problems experienced with certain models be solved in a couple of years?

Even funnier when your car is PAID FOR!

[elwesso]

The thing I dont like about this is how ignorant people are... Overall, anytime we try to "decrease our dependency on foreign oil" we always end up consuming more energy than we would have just by using the gas in the first place!

traditional gasoline contains about 125,000 BTU per gallon whereas ethanol has about 76,000 per gallon.... plus water can easily dissolve into ethanol (which is 0 BTU!)... why alchy is used in water removers...

The fact remains that ethanol takes more BTU to produce than it actually creates itself.

Quote »The average costs in terms of energy and dollars for a large modern ethanol plant (60-70million gallon/yr) are listed in Table 1. The largest energy inputs are for corn production and fuelenergy expended in the fermentation/distillation process. The total energy input to produce onegallon of ethanol is 129,600 BTU. However, one gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only76,000 BTU. Thus, a net energy loss of 53,600 BTU occurs for each gallon of ethanol produced.Put another way, about 71% more energy is required to produce a gallon of ethanol than theenergy that is contained in a gallon of ethanol (Table 1)

http://hubbert.mines.edu/news/Pimentel_98-2.pdf

[Q45denver]

I wonder what happens to all the CO2 that is produced during the fermentation process?

[66mgb]

Regarding the CO2 - ADM here in Decatur is the largest producer of ethanol. From what I understand - there is a small plant there dedicated to the reovery of CO2 for the gas and dry ice.

The one thing that is interesting is that while the cost to make E85 ethanol is fairly constant (at least around Decatur), the cost follows regular gasoline closely.

I thought it would be good to buy a flex fuel vehicle to save on my commute, but the price of E85 has risen too much to justify it.

The one good thing about the whole situation is that the few shares of ADM stock that I bought last year are rising quite nicely!

[sijoko]

The only people that will benefit from the increase of ethanol in the fuel supply are:

1) The farmers whose crops are used to produce ethanol.

2) The oil companies who have a cheaper way of increasing the octane number of gasoline. Also, ethanol limits the liabilities of oil companies because it is much safer than MTBE which has caused the contamination of water supplies throughout the country.

Nothing is ever done in Washington without someone making a profit. Always remember that.

Here is a little excerpt from the following article:

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/poli...id=50

"The additional demand for grain attributable to the ethanol industry is vitally important to American agriculture, which is in the midst of a crisis despite today's strong economy. Farmers face record low prices and world demand is in decline. The situation would be far worse without the demand for grain for ethanol production. Importantly, today over three times the current corn demand for ethanol sits in storage, and that amount grows each year. "

As a side note: Do you know what city in Texas has the largest number of farmers living in it?

The answer is Highland Park, a suburb of Dallas, where most homes are upwards of $750,000.

[66mgb]

Yea - I've never met a poor farmer...maybe I need to change my occupation!

[EQwhipD]

The only people that will benefit from the increase of

As a side note: Do you know what city in Texas has the largest number of farmers living in it?

The answer is Highland Park, a suburb of Dallas, where most homes are upwards of $750,000.

Isn't Highland Park called "The Bubble". I think that I saw it on City Confidential on A&E (world's best show!). I digress. -EQwhipD

[qsiguy]

My economy vehicle is a 1993 Toyota P/U which cost me $700 and averages 28-30 mpg. Saves me $80-100 per month if I drive that instead of the Q. Would be crazy to spend over $20K to get another 10 mpg with one of those Hybrids. Now you can find used ones for $10-15K. But I wonder how much it costs to replace the batteries after the cars a few years old. Could defeat the purpose of buying an old one.

[Q45tech]

Hope they learn to make each year different and non interchangeable. Steal the newer hybrid and strip for batteries.......burn the rest for heat.At least the batteries have 100k warranty UNLESS ABUSED.

The chain guides of 2005 inflated to $5,000 plus labor, how can you sell this as a used car, who will buy when they understand......luckily it will take some time.

You will have 90% driving around on the engine alone just like a slammed active.

[sijoko]

I think most people buy Hybrids because it makes them feel good. Like they are doing something good for the environment. It is an emotional purchase.

If you wanted to save fuel and help the environment, you would either buy a used economy car or not drive at all.

If someone spent $25k on a Hybrid, how long before they break even at today's fuel prices.

Also, what happens with all the battery packs when it's time to dispose of them. Can you simply drop them off at the city dump? I don't think you can.

[sijoko]

Isn't Highland Park called "The Bubble". I think that I saw it on City Confidential on A&E (world's best show!). I digress. -EQwhipD

I don't know if it is called by that name or not. But it does sound like a good description.

If you drive through Highland Park, you will see one mansion after another after another. Not McMansions but real ones with at least 1 acre of land. That's where Cheney lived.

[Q45tech]

http://yarchive.net/chem/gasoline_dewater.html

Adding about 3% by volume of anhydrous iso propyl alcoholwill provide a water tolerance of about 0.35% at 15C and about0.2% at 0C, thus it's ability as a cosolvent is superior ona volume basis, and far less temperature sensitive thanmethanol.

Ethanol is between the two, with a 15% blend tolerating about1% water at 15C. The best additives are the isomeric propyland butyl alcohols, and above them, the tolerance decreasesas the alcohols become less water miscible.

[Q45tech]

How refineries remove water from fuel...........Calcium Chloride salt beds.

[maxnix]

You will have 90% driving around on the engine alone just like a slammed active.

Oooooh....visions of a slammed Insight dancing in my head!

Who will be the first to drop in a VH45DETT?

An extra $80 - $100 per month is cheap life insurance in the the land of cell phone using, non-signalling monster SUV driving trophy wives.

[maxnix]

I wonder what happens to all the CO2 that is produced during the fermentation process?

Yeah, at least in France they keep it in the champagne!

Wonder if we recover it for our kids soft drinks? Dentist full emplyment security plan.

[Q45tech]

Dry Ice eventually sublimes [sublimates]

According to a study by the USDA,[2] an average person's respiration generates approximately 450 liters (roughly 900 grams) of carbon dioxide per day.

So that's about 5 Billion Kilos per day for World population.

Each gallon of gas a vehicle consumes, 19.6 pounds of carbon dioxide are emitted into the air.

So 1 gallon of gas per day = 10 humans breathing per day so if a Billion humans were no longer around we could burn 100 million more gallons.

The world cattle population is estimated at 1.3 billionThe world sheep population is estimated at 1.0 billionThe world goat pop is ~~ 749 million

Safe to say there are more animals than people who generate cabon dioxide.

The solution seems simple. The people have to go. Bird Flu could be the correction agent

[96Qowner]

Yup, world population has more than tripled over the last 70 years.

It also doesn't help that the Sun's been putting out more power:

"When the Sun boasts a maximum of spots, cycle after cycle, Earth tends to be warmer than when its face is clear.

During the years from 1640 to 1720, for example, observers counted abnormally few sunspots and Earth's climate entered a period of unusually cold weather. Since the mid-1960s, solar magnetism has been increasing along with global temperatures. "

http://www.news.harvard.edu/ga....html

A person can pretty much pick whatever causes they like, for global warming - whichever best suit their own private agendae.

"But," Baliunas admits, "I am addressing scientific issues. Economic, political, and environmental considerations are quite another story."


Modified by 96Qowner at 11:25 AM 4/25/2006

[Meaux]

"During the years from 1640 to 1720, for example, observers counted abnormally few sunspots and Earth's climate entered a period of unusually cold weather."

Wonder how accurate their measuring equipment was in those days...How could they state with any certainty "Earth's Climate entered a period of unusually cold weather." How could they know?

[96Qowner]

There's a station in the UK that has taken consistant temperature readings for hundreds of years, for instance. Also tree rings 'n stuff. Apparently Carbon 14 reveals cosmic radiation, too. Lots of ways to gather data - same as the Chicken Little folks. Just depends on what result you want. Private agendae, doncha know.

[elwesso]

Still if its as they say it was, 5degrees wouldnt really matter..

[Meaux]

Yes, but somehow from 1640 to 1720, I seriously doubt they got on the horn to Trevor in Britian, Adolf in Germany, Yo in Japan, Pepe in Paris, Karl in Russia, Jose' in Mexico, or Heather in Frisco, to ask how the weather was that day... :-)

The Sun is getting hotter, and there ain't a dang thing "we" can do about it... Except of course, exploit it for monertary gain... :-)

"I believe it's immoral to let a sucker keep his money."from the movie Rounders...