Non-Intercooled

[Tatanko]

I have a question. Would it be possible to do a KA-T setup on a 97 240 on extremely low boost (say, 5 psi) and not use an intercooler? I know this would mean some loss of power, but I'm talking, could I SAFELY run 5 psi of boost into the engine without an intercooler?

EDIT: Also by safely I mean stock fuel, stock internals, and stock ECU.

I'd be using parts from Import Autoperformance. That means their equal length manifold, downpipe, wastegate, oil lines, and probably a used T3/T4 turbo I could find somewhere. I guess another question is, does a T3/T4 turbo capable of giving boost as low as 5 psi? I ask this because IA's Stage 1 kit produces 7 psi of boost, and that's on an intercooled setup...so...? Can anyone offer some insight here?

[masamunex03]

From what I've heard until 8lbs you don't need an intercooler. Z31's boost about 4-5 lbs stock with no intercooler. I know plenty of guys with Z's running 8lbs. It can be done with stock internals. SR 370's are a drop in affair for the KADE and since you have an s14 you can hack the MAF. That will take car of your fuel problems for under 130.

[Tatanko]

Thanks for the reply. I know SR injectors are drop-in, but I'm looking for an absolutely bare-bones thing here (hence no intercooler). Take a look on the KA-T WHP/PSI thread at the top of this forum and look at CDIGITY's reply. He's running 5 psi on stock injectors and ECU. So honestly I don't think I'd need the SR injectors until I raised the boost beyond that point. But I will keep that in mind, thank you.

[:: orion ::]

Yes you can run w/o an intercooler, as long as you are running an efficient turbo...something in the +70% range at full boost for the range of RPMs of a KA.

But a T3/T4 with 5psi will do ~200-210rwhp...

I dyno'd 204rwhp at 4.35psi with no intercooler.

Stock injectors run out below 200rwhp, so that's a no-no...

Even though someone has done it does not make it safe or reliable...

And there's not a wastegate that I know of that can do less than 4psi...I had the smallest TiAL spring, at 4.35psi.

So hold off until you can at least drop in some 370cc injectors, otherwise you WILL blow a motor.

- Brian

[:: orion ::]

BTW, I run a T3/T04E, 57-trim...with Stage III turbine, .63 A/R.

[Tatanko]

Thanks a bunch for the info. I wasn't planning on going below 5 PSI anyways, but since you mention a spring that goes that low, it might be worth a try initially. As far as the fuel, I guess I'll be adding SR injectors to my list of must-haves. Good numbers, btw.

[huguetpj]

You need either a decent fuel setup or an intercooler. I would not run without both. I have ran 7PSI on the stock fuel system... but my ARs were like 13.5. Add no intercooler to that and you can very well blow an engine.

[Tatanko]

Alright, well, like I said above I guess I'll be adding atleast the SR injectors to start (even though initially I'll only be running that 4.35 PSI).

[Tatanko]

Alright, I'm going to list all the things I've compiled so far that I'd like to use for my KA-T setup:

-T3/T04E Turbo-Vortech FMU-Oil Feed/Return Line Kit (Import Autoperformance)-Tial 38mm Wastegate (4.35 PSI spring)-Equal Length Turbo Manifold (IAP)-Downpipe-SR20DET 370cc Injectors-Walbro 255 l/h Fuel Pump-Dual A-Pillar gauge Pod w/ Boost gauge (to start)

Now, I do realize I am also going to need a filter and piping to go from it to the compressor. Other than that, what am I missing? There's gotta be something I'm missing I just can't think of it...So can anyone tell me what I'm missing? Or if there's anything on the list I might not need? (I'm going for lowest price possible here)

[TrunkMonkey]

an electronic boost controller.

some people have had boost creep issues with the IAP manifold. it's best to have the best insurance possible if you plan to go non-intercooled.

-demetrius

[Tatanko]

Alright...thanks for the warning. Are there any other manifolds you'd reccomend that would still be compatible with all the other IAP parts that are better-functioning? And I still can't help but think I'm missing some piping in there somewhere....

[Checkered-Member]

Alright, I'm going to list all the things I've compiled so far that I'd like to use for my KA-T setup:

-T3/T04E Turbo-Vortech FMU-Oil Feed/Return Line Kit (Import Autoperformance)-Tial 38mm Wastegate (4.35 PSI spring)-Equal Length Turbo Manifold (IAP)-Downpipe-SR20DET 370cc Injectors-Walbro 255 l/h Fuel Pump-Dual A-Pillar gauge Pod w/ Boost gauge (to start)

with this step up, you will spend allot of money, might as well get an intercooler and run 9+ psi

if you still don’t want the intercooler, you don’t need the injectors not the fuel pump

[Tatanko]

Alright...how will I be spending a lot of money? I mean I realize some stuff won't be useable anymore if I decide to go with an intercooler later...but other than that, why? At 4.35 PSI...what kind of power can I be expecting to make that I won't need larger injectors? Your views seem to conflict with Orion's...

[TrunkMonkey]

if you still don’t want the intercooler, you don’t need the injectors not the fuel pump

a weak fuel pump will can cause you to run lean, and it's not hard to max out the stock injectors @ such low boost with a t04 compressor.

buy both like orion said.

-demetrius

[Tatanko]

Alright, I plan to just to be on the safe side. But like I asked earlier, are there any compatible manifolds that might be better than the IAP manifold that had boost issues like you said? And I still don't see how I'm gonna spend a lot of money...looking around at prices and what not, that exact setup can be as cheap as $2052 (a tiny bit more depending on the price of the turbo), however this does not include the filter and piping to go to the compressor.

[TrunkMonkey]

But like I asked earlier, are there any compatible manifolds that might be better than the IAP manifold that had boost issues like you said?

IAP's is the only manifold that i've heard of that had boost creep issues. even then, it's only been a few people. any manifold on the market will do just fine.

-demetrius

[:: orion ::]

If you're going to run an FMU (or RRFPR), then you don't need the 370cc injectors.

So either ditch the FMU and go with 370's and Hacked MAF or AFC...

Or run the stock injectors with an FMU.

Door #1 is the best bet, I don't like FMUs...really high fuel pressure can be dangerous. 370s and a Hacked MAF can be cheaper than a FMU, and will be done right.

With an FMU on stock injectors, you can do 5psi no problem...but I wouldn't go higher than 6-7psi with an FMU...if you choose that route.

And around 7-8psi is the spot where an intercooler (maybe just a small one) becomes a necessity.

- Brian

[Tatanko]

Alrighty...well, then I guess I'll ditch the FMU. Can you be a little more specific about what you mean when you say "hacked" MAF though? And can anyone tell me what other turbo manifolds are available out there to buy seperately? I've looked all over and can't find any others that aren't a good bit more expensive. And I know I had one that was cheaper than IAP's on my original list, but I can't remember where it was from...

[sonorous986]

Alrighty...well, then I guess I'll ditch the FMU. Can you be a little more specific about what you mean when you say "hacked" MAF though? And can anyone tell me what other turbo manifolds are available out there to buy seperately? I've looked all over and can't find any others that aren't a good bit more expensive. And I know I had one that was cheaper than IAP's on my original list, but I can't remember where it was from...

hacked MAF: http://www.ka24development.com/hacked_MAF.html

another common manifold is the weld-yourself log style from JGStools: http://www.jgstools.com/turbo/index2.html

for the stage 1 manifold you'll have to weld all the pipe pieces together + the turbo flange, but its only $150. the stage 2 manifold is already welded, all you have to do is weld on the turbo flange, but its like $200-250.

[Tatanko]

Hmm...I dunno...that hacked MAF thing has me a little scared that I'm gonna blow the motor...

EDIT: How hard is it to do the hacked MAF? I'm not exactly the best person ever with a drill or anything like that...isn't there any other way to get the proper airflow? Some other MAF maybe? Are you absolutely sure I need to run a hacked MAF at 5 or 6 PSI?

As far as that manifold...I have no way of welding it myself and I really don't want to have to pay for it to be welded somewhere else...and I don't know of any places around here that would do that either.

[:: orion ::]

You need the bigger 370cc njectors to be safe...and the hacked MAF setupis not the only way to control them.

I would suggest an A'pex S-AFC in this case...

- Brian

[Tatanko]

Alright, well, I'm going to list an updated setup here:

-T3/T4 Turbo-Oil Feed/Return Lines-Tial 38mm Wastegate-Equal Length Turbo Manifold-Downpipe-370cc Injectors-255 l/h Fuel Pump-Dual A-Pillar gauge Pod w/ Boost gauge (for now)-Filter, Piping, and MAF Adapter (that leads to compressor)-Apexi S-AFC-Blitz SBC Spec S Boost Controller

Now, does that sound like a better, safer setup to all of you?I still feel like I'm missing something pipe-wise though...Let's see: filter/piping going TO the compressor, turbo manifold going TO the turbine, downpipe going FROM the turbine...what am I missing? I feel stupid from now :pface

[TrunkMonkey]

I still feel like I'm missing something pipe-wise though...Let's see: filter/piping going TO the compressor, turbo manifold going TO the turbine, downpipe going FROM the turbine...what am I missing?

piping from the compressor outlet to the throttle body.

-demetrius

[Tatanko]

Ahhh...thank you. I feel like an idiot now :pface Now I can rest easy...

[Tatanko]

Yeah, stupidly enough though, I've changed my mind. I think I'm just going to go with the GReddy kit. It's only $28 more than the total cost of my kit (at $2,650 from Apex Motorsports), so why shouldn't I? It would come with instructions; every single little nut, bolt, screw, etc. I need; an EVEN BETTER fuel setup; need I go on? Besides, it still leaves a lot of room for upgrades if I would want them. It's a non-intercooled setup like mine, and places me at just above the power level I was going for anyway. Only thing that disappoints me is that for that price, I won't have a boost gauge, boost controller, S-AFC or anything like that like I would have had with my own kit. Oh well, I'm sure it's worth it. Opinions?

[fiznat]

you're also going to be needing an exhaust of some sort, I think the stock unit is a little too restrictive for a turbocharged engine. On top of that, think about getting a VLSD or LSD of some sort to put that power to the ground, and remember that you're going to be buying higher octane gas all the time, putting more wear on your car etc etc. It seems like you're kinda trying to count every dollar so it helps to just remember in general that it WILL cost more than you think, regardless of how tightly you try to control it.

On another note, make sure your current engine is in good shape before you drop all this money. Do a compression test, make sure you dont burn oil or coolant, find out when the water pump/timing tensioners and chain/alternator/oil pump etc etc have all been changed. It would suck to have something stupid screw up all your work before you even get started...

Good luck!

[Tatanko]

Yes, thanks for that little reminder. It always helps to have a little reality check :thumbup Yes, I realize I'll need a bigger exhaust. That's something that will be done long before the turbo ever goes on. As far as an LSD of any kind, that will have to wait until after the turbo. I know it'll help get the power to the ground, and I will put one on, but only when I have the money AFTER the turbo goes on. As far as gas...nothing but 93 octane

Also, now that I've seen people's experiences with the GReddy kit...I'm half scared of it. I'm almost beginning to think my little kit would be better off, especially since I've got more stuff included with it that will help qualm any issues I might have (boost levels, fuel, etc.).

[vadem]

Hey man, Im rocking an. Non intercooled setup right now. Seems like your not really the DIY type. My setup cost was under a grand with afc, 3inch exhaust downpipe, used t3, lines, gauges, intake, 370's, and jgs log mani., dsm bov It can be done for very cheap if your not worried about getting your hands dirty. Also hunt all the nissan forums and lowball people like its your job, It paid off for me. Also ebay is your friend. Man, th hardest part of the install for me was the oil drain, were you gotta take the pan off to do it right. Other than that installing the kit is the easy part. Just take your time finding nice parts. My car at 5 lbs was like a rocket compared to na. Definatly worth it. Also make sure after everything is installed hit up a dyno wuth wideband, to make sure everything is cool. I made a mistake and it cost me my last engine so be carful. Later