No brakes!!! Whats the cause?

[Kiven422]

First of all this sucks but it possibly has saved my life... The front tires just hit 40K miles and still looks like new (with at least 90% thread left) so I never bothered checking them out. Well this brake issue has got me to see that the inside edges of the tires are complete. The left tire has a 1/2 inch gash of visible metal thread (can't feel it in the car or the steering). And I'm damn lucky I didn't blow out at 100+ MPH.

So I replaced the rear pads and a right rear rotor on my 94 Q. I just swapped out the old pads with the new. Didn't bother bleeding it because I felt there was no need to. About a months worth of driving and harsh braking few times the brakes were great and gave lots of extra confidence with no problems.

Just recently the FRONT RIGHT brake hose decided to start leaking. That hose is wet compared to the others so it must be leaking, right?

The last day I took it out (leaky brakes but drivable and brakes work)... I stepped on the gas and the car jerked forward in a way like something was holding it back and finally let go.......

....... So I decide to fish-tail a U-turn on my street (it was raining) and that was the last of the brakes. I don't understand... I was able to slow down (from at least 25MPH) and bust a fishtail but after that I had barely any brake power.

Heres what I don't get... Why did the brake hose start leaking in the first place?
Modified by Kiven422 at 5:33 PM 1/9/2008

[elwesso]

Ok, so let me make sure I understand this properly. You had a leaky rubber brake HOSE and you didnt park the car IMMEDIATELY until it was fixed... Just wanting to make sure, because honestly, that was not a smart move...

Sounds like you're going to be replacing all 4 lines and rebuilding your calipers to have a reliable brake system. Maybe just lubing the pins is enough if the calipers arent leaking... One of the rear calipers is probably locked, from not lubricating the slide pins. Definitely replace all 4 lines though because if one leaked it was from the fluid not being changed properly and/or old age.

[maxnix]

Didn't bother bleeding it because I felt there was no need to.

Heres what I don't get... Why did the brake hose start leaking in the first place?

You answered your question previously in your post. Rubber detiorates from moisture saturated brake fluid not being flushed soon enough.

Be sure when you flush your brake system after rehabilitating it and using new fluid, the technician has a Consult to activate the ABS so that fluid is also flushed. Or else you will be replacing your ABS unit also to the tune of about $1,100 for the rebuilt unit alone.

[Q451990]

I'm pretty sure there is an additional tool (besides Consult) needed to activate the ABS - I vaguely remember Dennis saying that T3 didn't have that special tool, and I know they have a couple of Consults. I wouldn't dwell on it much... I think it's more to remove the last little bit of air that could possibly be trapped in the actuator more than making sure the fluid is flushed. All of the brake fluid has to go through the actuator before it goes to the brake calipers anyway.

Heath

[maxnix]

I thought the Consult with an ABS card was required to activate it.

If it is not bled, then stagnant fluid is left in it. Also, one couild go out and activate the ABS while driving and do multiple flushes. Guess I need to read the FSM more carefully or Dennis needs to elucidate.

[Kiven422]

Ya I kind of figured that could be the problem... but air in the brake system is a common thing. Oh well this is the first time I did brakes without bleeding the system. Now I know.

But why... I didn't open the cap or anything... I just pushed the piston back in and slid the new pads on. Reassembled the brake and that was it.

[bullittandy]

I thought the Consult with an ABS card was required to activate it.

If it is not bled, then stagnant fluid is left in it. Also, one couild go out and activate the ABS while driving and do multiple flushes. Guess I need to read the FSM more carefully or Dennis needs to elucidate.

Its alright buddy, you made an educated guess and offered some sound-though deliberately frightening-advice.

I think your exactly right that it would be tolerable to bleed the brakes and better to bleed the brakes and then activate the ABS several times and best to take it to a shop with the correct tools.

Also, new fluid is always best but as anyone who has worked on old cars knows-even old stuff gets the job done-albeit with side effects.

I think that the guide pins need to be lubed and the brake lines replaced, good time o get some stainless lines I'd think.

[RAP]

You answered your question previously in your post. Rubber detiorates from moisture saturated brake fluid not being flushed soon enough.

Be sure when you flush your brake system after rehabilitating it and using new fluid, the technician has a Consult to activate the ABS so that fluid is also flushed. Or else you will be replacing your ABS unit also to the tune of about $1,100 for the rebuilt unit alone.

Reading my Book of Revelations AKA the 2000 FSM, and, removal of brake fluid does not state the anything must be done with the ABS system to completely remove said fluid.

Furthermore although there isn't a mechanical blow-up (image) of the actualconstruction "innards" of the ABS unit actuator but from what I surmise there is no brake fluid trapped in the ABS unit? The ABS unit is not a field repairable unit therefore no help. IT MUST BE CHANGED AS A UNIT. Field monkeys are not to be trusted.

The brake fluid does go through the ABS unit and is subjected to being "cut off" by the actuator whenever there is a signal, first, from any of the three wheelsensors and then through the control unit which activates any one of the three cutoff valves? One each for the front wheels and one for the two back wheels. There is an image for that.

There is a bleeding procedure after R & R of the ABS actuator but nothing special. Just the normal brake bleeding as done when working on the wheel brakes.

Jack

[elwesso]

I dont think anything is necssary for the ABS. all the brake fluid goes through the ABS thing anyway, which is why on ABS cars you do LR, RR, LF, RF instead of the other way for non ABS cars...

I wouldnt worry about it. its sorta like a transmission flush, 95% is good enough.

[maxnix]

Oh well this is the first time I did brakes without bleeding the system. Now I know.

But why... I didn't open the cap or anything.

Because hydraulic fluid is hygroscopic and it ages with temperature variations.

[maxnix]

I dont think anything is necssary for the ABS. all the brake fluid goes through the ABS thing anyway, which is why on ABS cars you do LR, RR, LF, RF instead of the other way for non ABS cars...

I wouldnt worry about it. its sorta like a transmission flush, 95% is good enough.

There is brake fluid in the actuator. Thnklilttle old ladies that never get into the ABS cycling (which is me as it only happens once or twice a year) and you have trapped old brake fluid.

One must always strive for 100%, even it it is unobtainable. Think of it this way. 98% new is twice as good as 95% new.

[qship96]

There is brake fluid in the actuator. Thnklilttle old ladies that never get into the ABS cycling (which is me as it only happens once or twice a year) and you have trapped old brake fluid.

One must always strive for 100%, even it it is unobtainable. Think of it this way. 98% new is twice as good as 95% new.

98% is twice as good as 95% new???? Stop the insanity!!!!!!!!!!!! The law of diminishing returns has come into play here for those without OCD.Change the damn fluid at least every 2 years,and quit obsessing over it. Easy to exercise ABS in snowy,icy,or even rainy weather if one wants to...also the ABS cycles {safety self tests}every time car is started and backed down driveway.

[bullittandy]

98% is twice as good as 95% new???? Stop the insanity!!!!!!!!!!!! The law of diminishing returns has come into play here for those without OCD.Change the damn fluid at least every 2 years,and quit obsessing over it. Easy to exercise ABS in snowy,icy,or even rainy weather if one wants to...also the ABS cycles {safety self tests}every time car is started and backed down driveway.

He's gotta save face.

[Kiven422]

So I was working on the brakes today... I unscrewed the metal brake line but can't seem to get the hose off the first metal bracket, is there a certain way or what?

[maxnix]

98% is twice as good as 95% new???? Stop the insanity!!!!!!!!!!!!

Numbers don't lie. 2% is 40% of 5%.

"Member's standards vary." - Q45tech

I remember the old story of how some diehard Prosche owners would never change their oil, only add to it.

Everyone clings to their favorite myths, but numbers do not lie.

[bullittandy]

So I was working on the brakes today... I unscrewed the metal brake line but can't seem to get the hose off the first metal bracket, is there a certain way or what?

Isn' there a small metal spring clip that slides over the brake line holding it to the bracket?

[RAP]

There is brake fluid in the actuator. Thnklilttle old ladies that never get into the ABS cycling (which is me as it only happens once or twice a year) and you have trapped old brake fluid.

One must always strive for 100%, even it it is unobtainable. Think of it this way. 98% new is twice as good as 95% new.

? There is brake fluid in the actuator?

That statement is not backed up by anything in the FSM stating so ?

I will state here and now that there IS NO BRAKE FLUID trapped in the ABS actuator. The brake fluid goes through the actuator on it's way to the wheels. A signal from the wheel sensors through the control unit, which controls the ABS actuators, which in turn cuts off the flow of fluid to whichever wheel is not turning, which indicates an electro-mechanical valve being used. Sorta like a line valve. That is why a driver will feel a kick-back or pulsation in the brake pedal if and when the ABS is actuated. Additionally I'm thinking that if the fluid is cut off to any one wheel it should be diverted to relieve the static pressure in the line from the ABS unit to the wheel that is affected.

That's my take on it. However, as formerly stated, I do not have an actual image or a description of the ABS unit (the squarish device in the engine compartment) that would fully reveal how the unit actually works. The FSM that I have, year 2000, which is the authority on these cars, does not go into any details of the workings of the ABS unit, except if malfunctioning, and that is R & R. The activation of the ABS unit by a "Consult" is to see if the actuator is actually functioning.

Accuracy is media is desirable ? ? ?

Jack

PS: I really would like to see an image of the ABS activator unit and an explanation of how it works.

[Kiven422]

Isn' there a small metal spring clip that slides over the brake line holding it to the bracket?

Well there is the metal bracket... I know how to get the middle one off... but the one coming from inside the car to the hose is impossible to get off, i just don't understand how I can do it without braking something... any ideas?

[maxnix]

? There is brake fluid in the actuator?

Do you think the hydraulic brake lines on the actuator are just for esthetic effect?

[Q451990]

I guess the question is does the fluid just flow through the actuator, or does it get trapped behind the actuator cylinder somehow? In any case my recollection is that the additional work is to remove any trapped air - not old fluid. Either way, if Dennis doesn't worry about it, it's not keeping me up at night.

Heath

[RAP]

Do you think the hydraulic brake lines on the actuator are just for esthetic effect?

DO YOU HAVE AN IMAGE OF THE INNARDS, AND, A DESCRIPTION OF THE ACTUAL WORKINGS OF THE ABS UNIT ? ? ? IF SO, LETS HAVE IT ? ? ?

Damn I inserted a ? mark before, and, after my quote thinking that there would be no mistake that I was posing a question, as is done, a la espagnol. Sorry I can't place the tilde above the n.

YOU HAVE YET TO ANSWER THE QUESTION ! ! ! Nor has anyone else for that matter. So I guess you're really no dumber that the rest.

I'll restate my case; I have read the FSM concerning the ABS "for my car 2000 year model" AND

IT DOES NOT STATE ANYTHING ABOUT TRAPPED BRAKE FLUID IN THE ABS UNIT.

There is a procedure for bleeding brakes after repair work and there is also a procedure for bleeding the ABS unit after R & R. For both procedures the bleeding is the same, le mismo ! ! !

If you got something to offer, lets have it, otherwise STFU.

Anyway you're mostly a pimple on the *** of an otherwise good and helpful forum.

Take care. Jack

[Jesda]

I dont think getting nasty is necessary. Everyone here is just trying to help.

FREE HUGS!But no funny business.

[RAP]

Read my post.

Time to "fire for effect".

Help with mis-information is no help.

Nor is constantly nit-picking helpful and tends to piss folks off.

Accuracy in media is desired or remain silent.

Finally, if there is a desire to be helpful fact are essential or else it's just a guesssubject to challenge?

Take care. And I'm not into hugging, AT ALL. I don't want no man touching me, but I get the point.

Jack

[TBrack]

I dont think getting nasty is necessary. Everyone here is just trying to help.

FREE HUGS!But no funny business.

I'll take a free hug!

[Q451990]

I'll take a free hug!

Oh hell, it's a RP love fest. Maybe ya'll could do this back channel