Nissan: Stage 3 Weight Reduction?

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AZhitman
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Nissan recently announced it will expand its use of advanced high tensile steel, specifically a material termed "1.2 gigapascal Ultra High Tensile Strength Steel with High Formability", in its production models starting in 2017.

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This hardened steel helps decrease vehicle weight by 15% while offering safety benefits to the occupants. The material will be used on as much as 25 percent of the vehicle's parts (measured by weight) within four years’ time.

Development of this new material was realized by a breakthrough in the ability to control its structural formation at the sub-micron level to achieve both strength and formability.

The first application of the new 1.2 GPa material will be used in the new Infiniti Q50 luxury sedan that will enter production in late 2013.

Nissan is the first car manufacturer to utilize Ultra High Tensile Strength Steel with High Formability, which means it can be used to create more complex shapes, to the extent that it can even be used for cold pressing structural body parts.

As part of its three-part plan to improve fuel economy across the lineup, Nissan will incorporate the new material, as well as increase aerodynamics and reduce drivetrain friction. The expectation? A 35 percent improvement in fuel economy (compared to 2005 numbers) for all Nissan vehicles by the end of fiscal year 2016.

This is awesome news - Any metallurgists in the house?


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ZasslefraZ31
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wonder if this new material can utilized in the older chassis??

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AZhitman
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How would you propose to go about that?

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I'm sure all it's properties aren't publicly available, but yeah, if Nissan (or whoever they are outsourcing spare part production to) decided to stamp out say, fenders of this material, then you could potentially bolt it on to your older chassis.
Unlikely to happen though.

I wonder how weld-ability is compared to conventional steel.

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I also wonder how this compares to Mercedes' highly advertised high strength steel.
...and Ford's serious investment into carbon fiber production.

On paper, carbon fiber SHOULD be better, but holy damn, it is WAY easier/faster/cheaper to stamp steel than to autoclave CF.

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AZhitman
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Looks like the majority of it will be used in the frame.

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Wonder how fast this will rust.

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AZhitman wrote:Looks like the majority of it will be used in the frame.
Q50 doesn't have a frame :gapteeth:
asoomal wrote:Wonder how fast this will rust.
Rust is usually taken care of now-a-days with coatings (paint, E-coat, galvanization, etc)

I doubt the material itself will be any more or less prone to rust than regular steel, but the fact that it is stronger (and therefore will allow them to use thinner gauges to achieve the same structure rigidity/crash test ratings) will take less time to rot through compared to regular steel once rust has taken hold.

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PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:
AZhitman wrote:Looks like the majority of it will be used in the frame.
Q50 doesn't have a frame :gapteeth:
You know what I mean.

Unibody, spaceframe, chassis... Damn engineers. :tisk:

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That one thing with the wheels and things.

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Did Nissan mention if the upgrade in steel would impact the price of the vehicle?

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCfV5TCjIl0[/youtube]

Pretty neat stuff actually. 1.2 GPa of tensile strength for sheets is impressive. I did some digging around on Nippon Steel's site since they developed the steel for Nissan. I'm not sure what alloys are being used in the steel, but the structure of the metal is what's being controlled tightly to produce such a high tensile strength. The new steel falls under NS's dual phase category which is basically changing the micro-structure by applying specific cooling techniques during a controlled hot roll. NS started using dual phase micro-structures in oil pipelines years ago, it just looks like they were able to scale it down to the thinner 1.6mm thickness of the sheet steel. The NS data sheet lists dual phase sheet metal's primary uses for energy absorbing items such as bumpers and structures.

The only thing I'm missing here is how this steel is lighter. I know more advanced steels can be lighter than less refined steels, so without knowing what alloy additives are in the steel, it's really hard to know just exactly why this steel is lighter than more traditional steels. It's more than likely chromium as that's always a safe bet to see put into steel. I saw one of their high tensile pipe steels had 23% chromium in it. But to put it in perspective, NS's data sheets don't list different mass specs for rolls based on type of steel. The mass differences are based on sheet thickness.

James is correct on the rust issue. Iron is going to rust no matter what. You can add all the carbon and chromium you want to iron when you're making steel, but it's going to rust. You can dip it in zinc, but that will eventually wear away and you'll get rust. Auto makers have gotten really good at developing coating techniques to fully protect the steel to reduce rust. If you're asking this because of older Datsun and Nissan tendency to rust, that was due to poor protection techniques. I mean, who uses a body filler that allows moisture in so it can sit next to the metal?

Bubba, who knows how this will impact price. Nippon Steel doesn't list their price per coil, but they probably do pricing based on contracted quantities. So as Nissan rolls more of this steel into their production line, the price on their end will go down. And since it can be used on existing tool and dies, Nissan doesn't have to pay to re-tool. More than likely, the end price points won't budge much. But we'll see on that.

I would love to see some of this stuff make it into older cars, but let's be realistic there :P

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Hijacker wrote: The mass differences are based on sheet thickness.
Bingo.
OR, you could get away with using less re-enforcement bracketry, braces, etc.

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I hope they make panels and members for these cars for decades, gonna be hard to restore a 2018 Z in 2060 since you probably won't be able to buy this type of steel from the local metal market. :squint:

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By 2060 you'll be able to print it out on your home's 3D printer.

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PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:By 2060 you'll be able to print it out on your home's 3D printer.
Hell, you could probably do that in the next handful of years at the rate 3D printing is going.

BTW, that's a freaking AWESOME idea. Maybe I'll do an engineering project on that in the future.

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Just remember where you heard it first when you're a billionaire. Feel free to toss me a million dollars every now and then :)

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Wow this looks like a great idea, faster, safer, lighter, better mpg. Does everyone remember when ford went with Boron steel in the B pillars and doors of their vehicles. From a safety standpoint it was great, however for fire rescue it was a nightmare for rescuing occupants from vehicles. The strength of the steel was a worthy opponent of saws and possibly the jaws of life.

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This steel is still steel. It'll cut and bend under hydraulic pressure. It's special property comes from rolling refinement. From what I could find, most of its alloy enrichment is of elements that have been in the steel. It's also only being used on the unibody frame, so it looks like body panel skins will still use standard steel.

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Hijacker wrote:This steel is still steel.
That was the only downside I could think. So that removes any cons to using it. Its One thing Nissan is doing right. Now if only we can convince them the need a nice S chassis to sport these lighter materials.

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Seems pretty wild... I am curious to see how it plays out over the long"ish" run.

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All I read was "the next Z will be lighter because of this" :)

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I wonder what impact it will have on chassis flex. I mean, theoretically, it would definitely stiffen the chassis overall, right?

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Chassis flex will probably be a zero sum outcome. You lose weight by reducing material for rigidity, but gain rigidity from higher tensile steel.

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Wait.... doesn't lighter mean less flex? Or are they going to be using thinner material to make it lighter? I can see where that would be zero sum.

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What about safety? If a 1.2 High Tensile Strength Steel car with this steel crashes into a 2014 car made of 440MPa steel would the 1.2 car crush it?

Or what happens when a 1.2 HTSS car crashes into another 1.2 HTSS car? The world explodes?!?! ;)

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Ace2cool wrote:Wait.... doesn't lighter mean less flex? Or are they going to be using thinner material to make it lighter? I can see where that would be zero sum.
Doubt it'll be thinner. It just looks like they can reduce the amount of material needed to achieve the same rigidity. Nissan hasn't gone into specifics beyond the press release and vid I linked, so my assumptions are based on Nippon Steel's data sheets for mass per coil based on sheet thickness. With reduced bracing they can get the lighter aspect while the higher TS will resist bending and twisting compared to lower TS materials. Zero sum will be flex. Less bracing == more flex stronger steel == less flex.

And as a reminder as to what tensile strength is. It's the amount of force needed to cause the metal to tear when pulled on. It will still crumple and bend. It's safer than lower TS steel since deforming is what absorbs energy on impact. When the steel rips, the energy is no longer being absorbed and is transferred elsewhere.

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It works like this.
The car needs to be xxxx stiff.
The car needs to be xxxx safe. (think crumple zones, etc)
Weight will be a byproduct.
They can acheive their rigidity and safety by either using a metric ton of crap grade junk steel, OR they can use this awesome stuff made by elves and pixies, and use only half the amount of material.
^That is scenario 1, meaning they have a badass material (strong) that is the same density as the old material.
Scenario 2 is that they a material that is the same strength as your crap material, it's just way, way lighter. Then they just change from material A (heavy) to material B (light) and foootzpah!! Everyone wins.

Scenario 3 is a combination of both.


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