Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Nissan Rogue forum - Includes Nissan Qashqai and Nissan Dualis as well.
funissan
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NISSAN REFUSES TO REPAIR DEFECT

Postby funissan » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:44 am

it has been a common issue in the Rogues for vibration issues as you are accelerating. people have posted it is normal. Dealers say they cant duplicate. i posted a video on you tube called " Nissan Rogue Vibrations " which is my Rogue up on a hoist running at idle in drive. i had to hire a lawyer for Nissan to repair this known manufacturers defect prior to the 2009 model Rogues. THE ROGUE CAN NOT BE REPAIRED. Nissan as admitted in court documents that yes i have a defect. Nissan and its dealers have willfully hide this defect from consumers. Even after Nissan admitted there was a defect i took it to Tamaroff Nissan in Southfield Michigan AND Bill Kay Nissan and after they seen my Rogue up on the hoist running at idle in drive as seen on YouTube they stated there is nothing wrong.
any one who says there's nothing wrong works for Nissan
Go to your Nissan dealer and ask to see it up on the hoist running at idle in drive. if they wont show you make sure you document there refusal and go to a gas station and ask them to raise it up and if you see it shaking like crazy hire a lawyer.

here is a link to the YouTUbe video i posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-__bST39f90


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darylzero
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Re: NISSAN REFUSES TO REPAIR DEFECT

Postby darylzero » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:30 am

You say this is a
known manufacturers defect prior to the 2009 model Rogues
yet your profile says you own a 2009 AWD SL?

Did you own a 2008 and traded it in for a 2009?

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Re: NISSAN REFUSES TO REPAIR DEFECT

Postby casperfun » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:35 am

Sorry for your problem. I do remember seeing that video in the past and would call that far from a typical vibration. More like something clanging back there. How come this never qualified for the lemon law since its a defect that Nissan cannot fix. Those dealerships are either blind or have no common sense. More likely lack brain cells!

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Re: NISSAN REFUSES TO REPAIR DEFECT

Postby kerrton » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:10 am

Just a minor point of clarification: the low-speed CVT vibration that is well documented is one issue, the issue funnissan is describing with his vehicle on the hoist vibrating and shaking is another. The two are not necessarily linked.

Funnissan, in your case I'm sure you have both of these issues and Nissan should address the issue, absolutely. I'm trying to be objective and clarify that not all Rogue's have this issue, yours is actually the one and only that I've ever heard of with these extreme drivetrain issues. Most owners who drive conservatively report the vibration which is best described as driving in a high gear at low speed. This is NOT a problem in itselt, it is the way this powertrain is designed and it is one of the reasons why this almost 5-year old design is still tops in its class for city fuel efficiency, the CVT runs a very high gear in around-town speeds under light loads and light throttle. This vibration is subtle, I stopped noticing it after a couple months of ownership.

If you are experiencing strong vibrations, this is a different issue and I am not dismissing this as "normal". Strong vibrations can be anything from unbalanded or unevenly worn tires, poor wheel alignment, bad wheel bearings or driveline issues as funnissan is describing. These are absolutely nothing to ignore and should be repaired immediately. But the subtle around-town, high-gear subtle vibration is absolutely normal.

We just need to be clear on the specifics of the issue (or non-issue), to ensure we're giving owners accurate and helpful information. Funnissan I wish you the best of luck in achieving a solution from Nissan for your obvious powertrain defect issue. Please let us know if we can help with anything.

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Re: NISSAN REFUSES TO REPAIR DEFECT

Postby funissan » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm

darylzero wrote:You say this is a
known manufacturers defect prior to the 2009 model Rogues
yet your profile says you own a 2009 AWD SL?

Did you own a 2008 and traded it in for a 2009?


i had a 2005 Murano and traded it in for the 2009 Rogue. During the investigation of the defect it was found that Nissan North America and it authorized Dealers where aware of defect since the 2008 model Rogue and willfully did not investigate consumer complaints of a vibration during acceleration and willfully stated it was normal and could not duplicate. The Better Business B. ordered Nissan to repair my Rogue but Nissan refused. A lemon law case was filed in Michigan and still Nissan refused to repair the Rogue. All Nissan had to do was repair the Rogue to end the lemon law suit and they could not repair it. In court they will have to explain why they waited till 3 days left ( first complaint made in the 2nd week of lease inception ) in the 39 month lease to attempt repair in which it broke down with trans failure and cvt fluid leaking. I cant wait till trial and i have Nissan techs state under oath they were told by dealer management and Nissan North America to not diagnose defect and report it as Normal and could not duplicate. This will be a prelude to a class action law suit.
If you feel the vibration just ask to see it up on the hoist running at idle in drive as seen on video, remember Nissan says all Rogues vibrate so if they say that cant duplicate they are lying to you. and if they claim normal ask what the current specification of vibration is and at what point its a defect

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Re: NISSAN REFUSES TO REPAIR DEFECT

Postby funissan » Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:03 pm

kerrton, as you mention in a previous post. Nissan only test drives and do not do any inspections. I believe you stated it was a judgment call? Any state certified tech or ASE certified tech can tell you if a vibration is felt there would be a few basic diagnose procedure that should be followed and Nissan/Dealers willfully did not do so. This will have to be explained in court and will be posted as this is headed to a class action lawsuit. As you seen the video i posted it was more then obvious even for a blind man that there is a major defect. I cant wait tell Tamoroff Nissan in Michigan and Bill Kay Nissan testify in court they stated there was nothing wrong and they have seen this defect in other Rogues. The lemon law case is coming up and Nissan has lost in the pre trial summary finding in front the Michigan court ( not sure exactly what its called ) and yet they still refuse to repair it to end the lawsuit.IF YOU FELL A VIBRATION AS ALL ROGUES DO JUST ASK TO SEE THE ROGUE UP ON THE HOIST RUNNING AT IDLE IN DRIVE AS SEEN ON THE VIDEO FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY
BE SAFE

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Re: NISSAN REFUSES TO REPAIR DEFECT

Postby ImStricken06 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:02 pm

i am very interested to see how this plays out. i know this problem exists in rogues.

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Re: NISSAN REFUSES TO REPAIR DEFECT

Postby AZhitman » Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:37 pm

Keeping an eye on this one as well.

Welcome aboard, funissan - Keep us posted. (p.s. No need to yell, we're Nissan enthusiasts but we're also independent. :) )

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Re: NISSAN REFUSES TO REPAIR DEFECT

Postby kerrton » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:46 am

Thanks Funnissan for sharing all of those details, if there is in fact an inherant defect with the Rogue it is knowledge that we will all benefit from.

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Re: NISSAN REFUSES TO REPAIR DEFECT

Postby funissan » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:52 am

AZhitman wrote:Keeping an eye on this one as well.

Welcome aboard, funissan - Keep us posted. (p.s. No need to yell, we're Nissan enthusiasts but we're also independent. :) )
i do not mean to yell but i just want people to understand that dealers due what nissan tells them to do and techs do what dealer management tells them to do. but every tech has the moral and ethical responsibility to look in to a consumers complaint. When a tech says he cant duplicate a drive line vibration that Nissan says every Rogue has well then that's a flat out lie. When a tech says the vibration is normal, there are tools such as a nvh analyzer which measures the frequency and amplitude of a vibration. Nissan refused to tell me the allowable amount of vibration which is normal and at what point the vibration becomes a defect. I can not wait till we go to court and i have the techs state under oath that they can measure vibration by just using there hands and can compare that vibration to other Rogues with out any tools. When we go to court i have some devices that i will ask them to measure the vibration and then ask them to compare and tell me which devices are vibrating at the same frequency. Needles to say they wont be able to and i will catch them in another lie.

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Re: NISSAN REFUSES TO REPAIR DEFECT

Postby funissan » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:02 am

kerrton wrote:Thanks Funnissan for sharing all of those details, if there is in fact an inherant defect with the Rogue it is knowledge that we will all benefit from.
Did you know that Nissan can put a motion in court to force me to sign a settlement against my will on a Rogue they refuse to repair but threaten to sue me for non repair? I can not wait till the jury hears this. i will keep you guys posted with updates once i get copies from Nissans attorneys. For some reason they wont turn over documents. One example is when we requested copies of all Repair Orders they with held Suburban Nissans repair order which stated " per Nissan no work is to preformed" in the commit section that i was not supposed to see. This repair Order was also missing from the BBB files they turned over in Discovery in the Lemon Law cases. The judge and Jury should find that interesting as it shows a cover up of a know manufacturers defect

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Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby Yev » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:27 pm

Hello, everyone. I am aware that several forum users posted about the vibration issue with the 2008-2012 Nissan Rogue's in the past, but I would like to share my findings. For those of you who own a Nissan Rogue and notice vibrations in the 1200-1500 RPM range, as crazy as this may sound, these vibrations are simply a by-product of Nissan Engineering. I have read in the past that several Rogue owners had their transmissions replaced which temporarily fixed this issue. The reality is, the vibration(s) emanate from the Torque Converter, which is connected to your CVT and engine. If you have ever seen a torque converter, it resembles a metallic Doughnut. The main functions of the torque converter are to send power from the engine to the transmission input shaft, lubricate, and double the torque coming out of the engine. The inside of a torque converter somewhat resembles a plane turbine. Pressurized viscous oil circulates inside the torque converter which helps to engage/disengage certain turbine(s). To avoid technicality, the torque converter's ability to double torque from the engine is the reason why your vehicle is able to move so swiftly from a dead stop. The vibrations you feel through your steering wheel, gas/brake pedals and seats is the torque converter lockup clutch. When the lock-up clutch engages, it locks the turbine(s) and pump which distributes the viscous oil. By doing so, your fuel economy increases. Although I am not a mechanic, my understanding is that at that stage of lock-up the instant/gradual loss in centrifugal motion of pressurized oil causes slight vibrations. Feel free to correct me on any of my points. Again, I am not a mechanic. Just an average Rogue owner.

Regards,

Yev

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby ImStricken06 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:58 pm

yes that's the strange feeling everyone gets, but the actual vibration that many feel is a mount issue. the whole front end vibrates upon acceleration. there is a class action lawsuit going one currently.

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby Yev » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:30 pm

ImStricken - I have seen a video posted on YouTube regarding the mount issue you mentioned. The amount of play is ridiculous, I agree! I am not convinced that it is simply a mount issue, however.

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby Rogue One » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:29 pm

Yev wrote:ImStricken - I have seen a video posted on YouTube regarding the mount issue you mentioned. The amount of play is ridiculous, I agree! I am not convinced that it is simply a mount issue, however.
Could you post a link please? Thanks!

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby Yev » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:10 am

Rogue One - Here are the links you requested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R16vCnvAjsU (engine mount)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIiPl5s9-AA (transmission)

What you just saw was a faulty engine mount and transmission. I suspect, however, that since the Nissan Rogue is built on the Sentra platform, it can very easily share the same transmission problem as presented in the second link. Let me know what you think...

Yev

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby ImStricken06 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:26 am

Rogue One wrote:
Yev wrote:ImStricken - I have seen a video posted on YouTube regarding the mount issue you mentioned. The amount of play is ridiculous, I agree! I am not convinced that it is simply a mount issue, however.
Could you post a link please? Thanks!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-__bST39f90[/youtube]

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby Yev » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:59 am

ImStricken - I have seen that video, it demonstrates vibrations coming from the wheel, as stated in the description...
Just to clear up any misunderstandings, I am referring to the vibrations coming from the transmission/torque converter between 1200-1500 RPM.

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby ImStricken06 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:05 am

Yev wrote:ImStricken - I have seen that video, it demonstrates vibrations coming from the wheel, as stated in the description...
Just to clear up any misunderstandings, I am referring to the vibrations coming from the transmission/torque converter between 1200-1500 RPM.
yes i know it locks up early, but that could not be the problem. the vibration could be more than just early torque converter lock up. it could be the drop in RPM (loss of power to weight ratio + TC lock up), it could be the actual transmission belt/chain slipping, it could be scored cones in your CVT causing a vibration at precisely the right gear ratio, it could be a lot. simply placing the blame on the TC, is kinda tough.

and regarding the vibration in the last video i post: there could be plenty reasons: bent axles/CV-Joints, destroyed bearings/hubs, loose ball joints, overly flexible cv-axle guides, poorly balanced tires, etc.

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby funissan » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:24 pm

HI Guys, just want to give you a update on the Rogues known manufactures defect in the right front wheel area that causes drive line vibrations. As mention i am advising Rogue owners to ask there Nissan Dealers to raise the Rouge up on a hoist and while running at idle -put it in drive. It is now documented in court documents that Nissan/dealers/techs are aware of this defect and have ( 1) willfully made false statements that they can not duplicate a vibration which Nissan says all Rogues have and ( 2 ) when they claim they compared it to a stock Rogue it is now will documented that no one can measure the frequency and amplitude of vibrations by hand and can compare it to other Rogues. The best question is to ask your dealer what are the specs for the current vibration and at what point it is abnormal if they dont answer hire a lawyer. As documented in court records they can not and they never have taken any measurements with any industry standard tools of any kind . A NVH tool should have been used in the past and should be currently used to resolve issues of drive line vibration. Nissan North America is fully aware by certified mail of a few Rogues that have a similar defect as seen in the Video as documented with the Illions Attorney General. A dealer and Manufacturer as a ethical and moral obligation to repair a defect . In my documented court case Nissan placed a do not repair order on my Rogue even thou the BBB ordered them to repair my Rogue and even thou i had no chose but to file a lawsuit Nissan still refused to repair it until i had 3 days left in the lease and the Rogue had Trans failure (as documented). I will be sending my court documents to all State Attorney Generals and Congress and so forth. i will be sending copies to numerous news outlets and advice them of this defect, all Nissan and its dealers had to do was repair or replace but they choose not to

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby funissan » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:32 pm

Yev wrote:ImStricken - I have seen that video, it demonstrates vibrations coming from the wheel, as stated in the description...
Just to clear up any misunderstandings, I am referring to the vibrations coming from the transmission/torque converter between 1200-1500 RPM.
Yev have you taken your Rogue to the dealer for the drive line vibration and if so what did they say?

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby Yev » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:24 pm

Funissan - Actually, I have been to three Nissan and one Toyota dealerships regarding the vibrations. As always, "we were unable to duplicate the issue" story and they all refused to put my car up in the air while it's running. The Toyota dealership actually wanted to replace my A/C compressor! The first Nissan dealership called me and said "we've got great news....it's your alternator." My reaction: WTF?! If it was my alternator, my car wouldn't start or at least all the accessories would be down. The vibrations are intermittent, though and with my luck...well you get the point. I have already paid for the first inspection and since they were unable to resolve the issue, I can and have already contacted the Service Manager to get free subsequent inspections regarding the vibration issue. To be honest, I love my Rogue...but the vibrations are a bit annoying....

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby funissan » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:45 am

if Nissan dealers will not let you see your Rogue up on the hoist running at idle in drive they are hiding this known defect.I only had two issues with the Rogue. there is not enough sound damping in the roof area and this known defect. Nissan should have repaired it with in the second week of lease inspection or just replaced the Rogue. i would refer you to the New York Times article a "whole lot of shaking" in which Nissan admits all Rogues vibrate. I believe in a attempt and good faith unfortunately Nissan do not. There are repair shops that offer free inspections such as Belle Tire, Discount Tire and so forth and if you cant find any place i am more then happy to find a place for you. If you do have a similar defect i have advised hiring a attorney. Nissan and its Dealers are aware of this defect as documented in court documents since 2008 and the Board of Directors received certified letters in 2009 of how to see this defect and that's why Nissan dealers will not let you see your Rogue up on the hoist. i am placing a similar video on my local cable channels and auto magazines and sending the video to numerous news media outlets.

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby Rogue One » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:45 am

funissan wrote:I only had two issues with the Rogue. there is not enough sound damping in the roof area and this known defect.
This is not a "defect". The amount of sound dampening material varies by manufacturer and vehicle type. While you may be dissatisfied with the amount of sound dampening material and or quietness of the Rogue, it is not marketed as having a noise free cabin. Maybe an Audi A8L would be more to your liking, if your looking for a quiet ride.
funissan wrote:i would refer you to the New York Times article a "whole lot of shaking" in which Nissan admits all Rogues vibrate... Nissan and its Dealers are aware of this defect as documented in court documents since 2008 and the Board of Directors received certified letters in 2009 of how to see this defect and that's why Nissan dealers will not let you see your Rogue up on the hoist. i am placing a similar video on my local cable channels and auto magazines and sending the video to numerous news media outlets.
Could you please post links? I've done an extensive search and could not find the New York Times article you mentioned. BTW, what are the court documents and certified letters you refer to? Is there a court docket, case number, or other legal papers that have been made public that can be viewed?

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby kerrton » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:08 am

Good post Rogue One, I'm not completely following all this hype either.

While I don't doubt that funissan has mechanical issues with his Rogue and was not treated well by his Nissan dealership, I am confidant that the Rogue model as a whole does not have a catstrophic inherrant defect, which would mean that ALL or MOST Rogues suffer from crippling mechanical issues.

This simply is not true and is not even debateable. We have hundreds of satisfied Rogue owners on this forum alone, some with very high mileage reporting that this is a very capable and reliable vehicle, on our mileag thread you will see one owner with over 300,000 km and the vehicle has had no problems and no repairs beyond regular maintenance. Rogue One you said it well, there may very well be inherant design issues with the Rogue that you may not be happy with, ex. lack of sound deadening, or more significantly we may not like how the powertrain performs, ex. vibrations, noise etc., but those are not design defects, those are just facts of life. A design defect would be a part that fails to meet its intended purpose, such as a powertrain component that fails and leaves you stranded or does not allow you to accelerate in a safe manner. Design defects affect safety. But the key to a "design defect" is that it is present in all vehicles of a particular model - this is what funnissan is claiming, and as Moderator of this forum and owner of a 2008 Nissan Rogue for 5 years I can tell you this is not true. Yes there are several things that I'd like to change about my car, but I made an informed choice as a consumer and I take responsiblity for the purchase. Overall I have been satisfied, more so every day as the car ages and continues to be very reliable without degradation of performance (i.e. not falling apart).

Regarding the video of the Rogue on the hoist at idle or in gear, IMStricken gave us the best interpretation; basically this Rogue has some mechanical problems, it could be several different components that are failed or badly worn, the vehicle needs to be repaired but this does not prove there are inherant defects in All Nissan Rogue vehicles.

Funissan you have my sympathy for having a vehicle that needs to be repaired under warranty, and your dealership has not honored your warranty and treated you well. The purpose of my post is to make sure this is kept in perspective for the benefit of our members and ensure we are presenting accurate information rather than a panic-inducing scenario that at the very least could lead many owners of perfectly functional vehicles to second-guess and worry about these "defects" that may be lurking.

Funnisan's Rogue likely had a defect, or perhaps mechanical breakdown is the better descroption, I don't know, but I do know that this does NOT mean that every Nissan Rogue will have the same problem.

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby ImStricken06 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:10 am

Image
i did a quick drawing for you guys.

i am super hungry, and will elaborate later - but our car is one that has the passenger side CV-shaft longer, than the driver side. the longer shaft (even though with a stabilizer) is prone to wobble.

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby kerrton » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:39 am

Great point, and this is why Subaru has always promoted their "symmetrical all-wheel drive" sytstem. Because of the offset engine and trans in FWD vehicles as shown above, you have issues such as torque-steer, and perhaps some minor "wobble". It's just an inherant characteristic of many vehicles that use this type of drivetrain configuration.

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby Rogue One » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:50 pm

kerrton wrote:Great point, and this is why Subaru has always promoted their "symmetrical all-wheel drive" sytstem. Because of the offset engine and trans in FWD vehicles as shown above, you have issues such as torque-steer, and perhaps some minor "wobble". It's just an inherant characteristic of many vehicles that use this type of drivetrain configuration.
All this talk about vibration reminds me of the early production problems car companies had with inline four-cylinder engines. Due to the asymmetry of their design, the engines have an inherent second order vibration, necessitating a balance shaft.

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby funissan » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:50 pm

Rogue One wrote:
funissan wrote:I only had two issues with the Rogue. there is not enough sound damping in the roof area and this known defect.
This is not a "defect". The amount of sound dampening material varies by manufacturer and vehicle type. While you may be dissatisfied with the amount of sound dampening material and or quietness of the Rogue, it is not marketed as having a noise free cabin. Maybe an Audi A8L would be more to your liking, if your looking for a quiet ride.
funissan wrote:i would refer you to the New York Times article a "whole lot of shaking" in which Nissan admits all Rogues vibrate... Nissan and its Dealers are aware of this defect as documented in court documents since 2008 and the Board of Directors received certified letters in 2009 of how to see this defect and that's why Nissan dealers will not let you see your Rogue up on the hoist. i am placing a similar video on my local cable channels and auto magazines and sending the video to numerous news media outlets.
Could you please post links? I've done an extensive search and could not find the New York Times article you mentioned. BTW, what are the court documents and certified letters you refer to? Is there a court docket, case number, or other legal papers that have been made public that can be viewed?
here is the link to the New York Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/autom ... wanted=all
i just googleed New YOrk times article whole lot of shaking.

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Re: Nissan Rogue Vibrations (My Findings)

Postby funissan » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:04 pm

Rogue One wrote:
funissan wrote:I only had two issues with the Rogue. there is not enough sound damping in the roof area and this known defect.
This is not a "defect". The amount of sound dampening material varies by manufacturer and vehicle type. While you may be dissatisfied with the amount of sound dampening material and or quietness of the Rogue, it is not marketed as having a noise free cabin. Maybe an Audi A8L would be more to your liking, if your looking for a quiet ride.
funissan wrote:i would refer you to the New York Times article a "whole lot of shaking" in which Nissan admits all Rogues vibrate... Nissan and its Dealers are aware of this defect as documented in court documents since 2008 and the Board of Directors received certified letters in 2009 of how to see this defect and that's why Nissan dealers will not let you see your Rogue up on the hoist. i am placing a similar video on my local cable channels and auto magazines and sending the video to numerous news media outlets.
Could you please post links? I've done an extensive search and could not find the New York Times article you mentioned. BTW, what are the court documents and certified letters you refer to? Is there a court docket, case number, or other legal papers that have been made public that can be viewed?
i flunked English in high school guys. i should have said it clearly that my personal issue is with A. the damping material and B. The know vibration defect in the video. I'm waiting for Nissan's check and court documents so i can post them on a website it should be soon since we signed a settlement last week. Just to make it clear to every one if this defect would have been repaired i would have bought it at lease end. There is normal vibrations in all vehicles but when a manufacturer and dealer are hiding a defect well its just wrong.its a simple test that most dealers will not show customers i am advertising in Detroit Michigan area that if there dealer wont lift the Rogue i will pay a repair shop to lift it up for them for free.


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