Nissan Leaf - Autoblog First Drive

[HashiriyaS14]

What does everyone think about this thing?

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/2011 ... st-review/





Personally, while I think it's a nice effort, I don't think it's the future. It weighs 3700 lbs, can take up to 20hrs to charge (10 on 220v), and will only go about 50 miles on a hot day with 4 people in the car. When it runs out of juice, you call a tow truck.

Contrarily, the Volt has many of the same issues, but when it runs out, you gas up and keep going. You can drive it across the country if you're so inclined. It's more expensive than the Leaf is, but it's also a proper car.

I feel like the Volt is the future. It's a platform that will allow incremental technological improvement over time without requiring any huge upfront breakthrough or investment. Over time ranges will increase, platform variety will increase, charge time will decrease, and the range-adder might move to natural gas or hydrogen. We won't have to design an uberbattery or build a nationwide hydrogen distribution network overnight.


Thoughts?

[Jesda]

A road trip would take a very long time, but I'm sure Nissan didn't intend for it to be more than a daily commuter.

Still, Americans want freedom, or at least the idea of it.

SUVs are popular because you (typically) can go offroad and carry lots of people cargo, not that you actually will. Electric propulsion is growing in popularity because it allows people to gain freedom from the politics and pricing instabilities of oil.

A range-limited electric limits freedom. I could see this being a #2 car or even a daily driver, but people will have to own a gasoline vehicle as a backup.

I'm not sure why electrics are so popular in southern California. Drive times are long, not just because of distance, but because of idling. After a long time sitting in traffic with the radio and AC on, it seems like range would drop dramatically.


So yeah, I completely agree with you.

[Jesda]

Also, I hope the owners of new Leaves (lol, leaves) have generous towing plans. I wonder if AAA will increase membership costs for electric car owners?

[Mr1der]

s***, how many people that work in a city are lucky enough to have a 50 mile round trip commute.

that car is worthless to me. I like the idea of freedom when I get in a car...that'd be like some sick kind of prison to me.

[DAAN.]

Owners would need to put an unreasonable number of miles yearly to justify its price

[Rev_D21]

The Volt is not the future, sorry. It's overpriced for what you get. 40 miles to a charge and it costs $41k? The return on investment is not happening there. The Volt is a gimmick, so is the Leaf except the Leaf isn't a Joke compared to the VOlt.

[Jesda]

The Volt is not the future, sorry. It's overpriced for what you get. 40 miles to a charge and it costs $41k? The return on investment is not happening there. The Volt is a gimmick, so is the Leaf except the Leaf isn't a Joke compared to the VOlt.

The Volt will go the typical distance of a standard automobile thanks to a backup generator that uses gasoline. The generator does not come on until electric power is depleted.

The Leaf will simply lay there and die until towed back to a charging port.



Your assertion that one is better than the other is fine, but you back it with nothing but shallow declarations.

[Rev_D21]

I do and I love it.

[MinisterofDOOM]

A road trip would take a very long time, but I'm sure Nissan didn't intend for it to be more than a daily commuter.

The problem is it doesn't even work for that.
My commute was, until recently, 60-something miles round-trip. So even if I'm the only passenger, that's pushing it. At least if I have to run my gas tank down to "E" I know I can stop and fill up.

s***, how many people that work in a city are lucky enough to have a 50 mile round trip commute.

that car is worthless to me. I like the idea of freedom when I get in a car...that'd be like some sick kind of prison to me.

Exactly.

As for the Volt, I've said before: It was a great concept that has been very very very poorly executed. But its combination of gasoline and electric power makes it a more realistic option for people today. But it doesn't matter anyway. It was only built to appease the meddling Feds. No one will actually buy it, so it doesn't really matter if it does its job well or not.

I'll stick with my V8s, thanks.

[Bubba1]

What does everyone think about this thing?

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/2011 ... st-review/





Personally, while I think it's a nice effort, I don't think it's the future. It weighs 3700 lbs, can take up to 20hrs to charge (10 on 220v), and will only go about 50 miles on a hot day with 4 people in the car. When it runs out of juice, you call a tow truck.

Contrarily, the Volt has many of the same issues, but when it runs out, you gas up and keep going. You can drive it across the country if you're so inclined. It's more expensive than the Leaf is, but it's also a proper car.

I feel like the Volt is the future. It's a platform that will allow incremental technological improvement over time without requiring any huge upfront breakthrough or investment. Over time ranges will increase, platform variety will increase, charge time will decrease, and the range-adder might move to natural gas or hydrogen. We won't have to design an uberbattery or build a nationwide hydrogen distribution network overnight.


Thoughts?

I agree with you. 100 mile rage is under ideal conditions. On a hot day with the A/c on in heavy traffic, you're looking at half, so it's not good if your commute is over 20 miles and you plan to stop on the way home. And with no way to recharge enroute, you're pretty much hosed if you run low. Another thing that concerns me is the replacement cost of batteries. At some point they might become affordable. But I can't imagine anyone now wanting to buy a 8 yr old Leaf without brand new batteries, and who's gonna invest thousands in new batteries right before selling their 8 yr old Leaf?

I also see concerns about where to charge them. If you run low anywhere besides home, you'll probably want a 500' extension cord, as how many parking lots do you know of that are equipped with electical outlets.

I think there are situations/areas where the Leaf might make sense, like a local grocery getter in suburbia, but only for as long as the warranty exists.

[LEMHEAD16]

I could make my daily commute for two weeks on a charge. I live 2 miles from work and rarely go outside of my "Neighborhood" I still wouldn't buy it though.

I'll stick with my 93 hardbody that gets 20mpg at best. I only fill up about every three weeks

[MinisterofDOOM]

Another thing that concerns me is the replacement cost of batteries. At some point they might become affordable. But I can't imagine anyone now wanting to buy a 8 yr old Leaf without brand new batteries, and who's gonna invest thousands in new batteries right before selling their 8 yr old Leaf?

I think leasing is the best solution to that problem. It makes the car a lot more appealing because the battery isn't your problem. That doesn't help the potential used Leaf buyers down the road who get to cover the cost of dealer-replaced batteries, but it does help move the new ones.

[Bubba1]

I think leasing is the best solution to that problem. It makes the car a lot more appealing because the battery isn't your problem. That doesn't help the potential used Leaf buyers down the road who get to cover the cost of dealer-replaced batteries, but it does help move the new ones.

I agree with you. Leasing is a fix if they do not plan to sell them after the lease is up. But Nissan's trying to sell them. So, unless Nissan offers ridiculously big discounts for new batteries when these finally need replacing, which seems unlikely, Leaf's (or Leaves?) will pretty much become compost after just 8-10 years.

[Mr1der]

I think Honda was on to something with the FCX...assuming we ever get that whole hydrogen station stuff worked out...

[C-Kwik]

I'm not sure why electrics are so popular in southern California. Drive times are long, not just because of distance, but because of idling. After a long time sitting in traffic with the radio and AC on, it seems like range would drop dramatically.

Actually Southern California is ideal for many of the commuters here. The drive times can be long but the total mileage is short. This is an important fact that makes this a good place for electrics as much of the energy wasted on a highway is in the aerodynamic losses. At low speeds there is much less aerodynamic resistance. Where the energy tends to go in traffic is in accelerating. But regenerative braking is a huge advantage that can be utilized in any car that can run off battery power. Though, the article suggests the regenrative braking in the leaf is minimal. It would be interesting to see some technical data on it. As for idling, electric motors don't "idle". Power for peripherals will be fairly minimal compared to running the drive components. Consider how long a current li-ion device runs on a single charge on its diminutive battery. According to this article, there is 900 pounds worth of li-ion batteries in the leaf. Even an A/C system is relatively insignificant compared to the energy needed to drive a car.

And I think the practical range will be better in the future, even for this car. Electric vehicles are not mature by any means. But as they become more common, I think we will see charging station set up at places where people work. With an approximately 7 hour charge time for 220 volts and significantly faster with 440 volt systems its going to become a matter of charging whereever you park. One of the local Fry's Electronics here has a small array of charging stations for EV's and have had them for as long as I can remember. If such systems were 440 volts, I would probably reach that 80 percent charge mark most times I go to Fry's.

And no disagreement from me as far is its practicality for long distance drives. Its simply not. But until we find a way to make "fill-ups" more like what it is now for gasoline powered vehicles, EV's are not going to be a good solution. But one could easily make this a primary vehicle and simply rent a car for road trips.

[C-Kwik]

I think Honda was on to something with the FCX...assuming we ever get that whole hydrogen station stuff worked out...

I'm just not convinced on hydrogen. The use of the fuel itself is quite ideal as it burns clean and has plenty of energy. But the issue is storage, bit at stations and onboard. To have decent range, the tanks on a vehicle have to be under extreme pressures. Cylindrical tanks are going to have the most strength, but for the kinds of volumes needed, it would be rather hard to fit in a vehicle. Consider the odd shape of a tank in most passenger cars. It would be prohibitively impossible to reach the pressures needed with odd shaped tanks.

Not to mention hydrogen requires more energy to make than we can use. So its not a source of energy but rather a medium for storing it. Which is fine so long as the source of the energy to make hydrogen isn't fossil fuels (otherwise it would be entirely pointless).

[_b.jaye_]

Not to mention hydrogen requires more energy to make than we can use. So its not a source of energy but rather a medium for storing it. Which is fine so long as the source of the energy to make hydrogen isn't fossil fuels (otherwise it would be entirely pointless).

im not sure what the loss is making hydrogen, but with a typical combustion gasoline engine on the road, you not going to see efficiency greater than 35-40% or so. even newer coal powerplants are getting better than that, and i think ive read natural gas plants are better still, so its probably closer to breaking even or improving on total consumption than you'd think.

[HashiriyaS14]

As for the Volt, I've said before: It was a great concept that has been very very very poorly executed. But its combination of gasoline and electric power makes it a more realistic option for people today. But it doesn't matter anyway. It was only built to appease the meddling Feds. No one will actually buy it, so it doesn't really matter if it does its job well or not.

People will buy it, lots of people.

The Volt is targeted at fairly affluent urban people who are either genuinely concerned about environmental impacts or wish to be perceived as such. I know that sounds silly, but there are a lot of these people out there. This sort of buyer would use the Volt mainly as a city car, running only on electric, going to the grocery store etc, but doesn't have parking in their urban environs for a normal car AND an EV and thus the gasoline capabilities of the Volt are attractive for when that person wants to go on a longer trip. They'd probably put gas in the thing 8-10 times a year, if that.

I guaran-damn-tee that the first 10,000 Volts (entirety of the initial run) will be snapped up by people like this.


Personally, I prefer to live farther out but be close to public transit. I still think that dual-powertrain is what the near future looks like, however.

These buyers have already justified a huge markup in housing expenses to live in the city, partially in the name of environmental responsibility, rather than commuting in from farther away. They aren't evaluating the Volt as a purely economic decision, it doesn't have to pay for itself.

[Jesda]

I do and I love it.

LOL

[C-Kwik]

im not sure what the loss is making hydrogen, but with a typical combustion gasoline engine on the road, you not going to see efficiency greater than 35-40% or so. even newer coal powerplants are getting better than that, and i think ive read natural gas plants are better still, so its probably closer to breaking even or improving on total consumption than you'd think.

I'm not talking about the inefficiencies of burning hydrogen. What I am talking about is the comparison of energy required to obtain hydrogen vs the amount of energy we get from burning it or using in a fuel cell. We always have to put more in. And if we used a fossil fuel source to get the energy to extract hydrogen, then it would be mostly pointless. The only advantage might be that powerplants extract energy more efficiently and perhaps more cleanly than vehicles do. They are also much easier to regulate. But a major reason to consider hydrogen is that it burns clean. But if we have to burn a fossil fuel to make hydrogen, it essentially becomes a useless step (we might as well just burn the hydrocarbon then). If we can get past the challenges of actually implementing it, I think it would be a good way to store energy derived from alternative energy sources.

[Dattebayo]

Anyone who is worried about going green should just get a horse.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

Why not save a horse and ride a cowboy?
Oh god that hurt my brain.