NISSAN-- Fix this please!!!!!

[BillStrong]

Quoted from the Road & Track website review of the Versa.http://www.roadandtrack.com/ar...=3829

Quote »While we typically prefer manuals, the pre-production Versa we sampled tended to hold its rpm between shifts, making it difficult to drive the car smoothly. A fix is planned for production, promises Nissan.[/quote]So what did you fix? I get this every single day. and it is pissing me off the more I drive this car. My wife makes fun of my driving due to this "holding RPMs". I have been a licensed driver in the USA and Europe and have held a license since 1979. I know how to drive and I now how to shift.

Please... fix this issue
Modified by BillStrong at 8:35 AM 11/7/2006

[cireecnop1]

AGREED!!!! Nissan definately needs to delete the program in the computer that causes this holding RPM's issue. Its very very annoyiong having to pause in the middle of shifts just to make the car shift smoother.

I feel your pain.

[BillStrong]

doing some research during lunch...

The MR18 uses electronic throttle... fly-by-wire. There is no actual connection between your right foot and the engine. So I suspect that this is a software issue.

I am searching SAE papers and can only finds a paper written about how they reduced friction on the MR and HR engines.

There is one paper on the development of future Nissan small cars. But I suspect this is more marketing than actual science. I am surprised that Nissan does not submit more papers to the SAE. Toyota engineers seems to live there

[yerrago]

How are they going to fix this? Is this going to be a firmware update or a chip upgrade? What is the point really of holding down the rpm? Are they purposely making the manual transmission look bad so everyone will go CVT? I would hope not.

If they finally get a fix, can we walk in the dealership and ask for this fix? I hope they won't regard this as a nit and then say it's not something that would would warrant some service.

I wonder if the Versas or Tiidas in other countries have this problem and have this fix already.

[BillStrong]

since this is an OBD2 ECU'ed car I suspect that the software upgrade is done through the OBD plug under the dash.You should also be able to reprogram the rpm hold when the clutch is pressed. The throttle is released at X seconds and allowed to drop. Since that is a set time, and seems to not be set to include RPM or MPH data, it should be pretty easy to reset down to a few milisecond hold. This would be done via the dealership hand held readers/programmers. Now, how would removing this RPM hold effect the emissions level of the car. I suspect that it would have a large effect on HC emissions. Maybe the MR18 has issues with passing the strict HC readings, and this was a fix. Something that only a few of the buyers would pick up on as most drivers will never drive the crap out of their car like me.

[xu_chen]

This apparently is a emissions 'feature', since a faster rpm drop will produce more emissions... Not sure if Nissan would ever fix this.I'm hoping maybe a after-market tuner can come up with a way to fix the software here?

[BillStrong]

ya, suspected this was a 21st century version of the dashpot. frack. This really sucks, because it wont be fixed due to the increased HC. I am thinking due to the weight of the Versa this has an impact. friggen tree huggers.

I happen to have a crap load of cable and sleeve. screw the fly by wire crap

[campersand]

friggen tree huggers.

Tree hugger and proud of it. I'm happy to take a cut in performance to make the air a little more breathable.

[yerrago]

I used to have a 90 Galant that suffered from delayed clutch response because the hydraulic system was faulty and so the master and slave cylinders were replaced and it improved the response.

Now that the Versa uses fly-by-wire, I guess this mechanism doesn't work anymore, right? Or does it? If it does, I'd like to take a look at the hydraulics and see if there is something inherently wrong with it. If stepping on the clutch does not immediately cause the clutch to engage fully, there could be a defect in the hydraulics. And what about the quality of the clutch?

I have to know if we are getting precision manufactured parts for the Versa or not. This really brings into question whether the parts not being made in Japan has anything to do with the sub-par performance.

I know when I drove Hondas, this was not an issue. I imagine that if the Fit has a manual transmission, it will not have this problem. And the Fit will not even have an emissions problem with the HC, notwithstanding.

This may go to show the relative inferiority of Nissan in having the technology and the manufacturing capability to build a car that is a good blend of performance, comfort, good emission profile, and fuel economy when it comes to the drivetrain.

Nissan engineers, please prove me wrong!


Modified by yerrago at 6:38 PM 11/7/2006

[motoguy128]

The Honda Fit is only LEV2, not ULEV like the Versa engine. It's predicted Honda already has a motor replacement in the works. The current engine is based on a 10+ year old design.

The hanging throttle probably contributed to the notchiness of the transmission. I'm getting accustomed to subtle tricks to shift smoother. It's kind of like driving on a rutted road... it only get worse if you force the point. IF you try ot shift fast and jam the shifter in ger, it is nore notchy. If you "feel" for the gear engagement, it's actually fairly smooth. You kind of need to help it match the syncros. I still like it better than a rubbery gearbox.

Nissan's/ Renaults design goals were for the enigne to work is a large variety of platforms, be low cost, and produce good useable power effeciently. The trade-off for this extra power and passenger space, is an extra 300lbs, and mediocre aerodynamics... that's why actual mileage is not as high as others. In the Consumers Reports test (more real world... not on a dragstrip), it had the quickest 45-60 time and tied for the quickest 0-60 time.

Sorry for getting a little off topic.

IT would be nice to turn off the hanging throttle, but I don't think it's that big of a deal. I'm more annoyed by the loose dash board panel and lack of crusie control on the S model.

[xu_chen]

Whoa, motoguy128. Do you mean to tell me that the problem I have upshifting from 1st to 2nd (always clunks and takes force) is because the synchros aren't matched? And this is due to the stupid tree-hugger throttle issue? MAN now I'm getting real pissed.Is this doing any damage to my car? (Gears or synchros?) What can I do to smooth it out besides shifting REAL slow? This car's already got low power, the 1st gear is so short, if you couple these factors with the necessity to shift slow, that would mean the actual acceleration is pretty miserable.
Modified by xu_chen at 8:44 PM 11/7/2006

[BenDupre]

y'all are getting things mixed up. The throttle hanghas nothing to do with clutch hydraulics. It's a software "bug" or "feature" depending on how you look at it. The clunky shifting has nothing to do with the throttle issue or the clutch hydraulics.

Nissan was quoted in several articles as promising a fix for the throttle hang. It was supposed to be done before production release. The fact that it wasn't done probably means that either Nissan was misquoted, or they lied, or they changed their mind. This may be an emissions "feature" and if so we aren't going to see a fix. If it's a bug in the software, we might. But personally I think this is way to noticible to be a something that was overlooked or a mistake. Doubt it will be fixed. It's one of the major reasons I chose the CVT. That and the gearing being too short compared to the CVT ratios.

Here's my share of ignorant "supposition" for today: Bill compared this feature to the "dashpot" on old carburetors. Since all engines are fuel injected these days, is it necessary to hold the throttle open to keep the mixture from riching up when the clutch is depressed and the throttle let off while shifting? I mean why can't the computer just cut back the fuel?

Ben

[yerrago]

So anyone know of a shop that can reprogram this piece of crap?

This kind of problem should have been considered from the get go when the Versa was on the drawing boards. It's not like Nissan is an upstart company from China that can be excused. And it's not like the US market and its emissions requirement is a small market and its requirements overlooked.

This manual transmission thing basically speaks of Nissan purposely designing out the enthusiast that prefers the stick. It put all stops on the CVT model.

Knowing this, he enthusiast market should steer clear of this model. Go ahead CVT users eat your heart out while we manual shifters pine and whine. This is essentially the model that will end up being a taxi. Large space for your luggage. Fuel economy not best but OK. Enough power for its size. A utilitarian car but with no provision for drivetrain comfort.

This car I will put down in all surveys to be one of the cars that are a throwback to the Model T era. Thanks Nissan for bringing us down memory lane. This car sucks!!!!

Maybe Nissan thinks " You get what you pay for. For the price, it's a good deal. We purposely designed it to be clunky shifting so it will not keep you from buying our more expensive CVT model, or from buying our higher-end Muranos and Maximas. Trade up and you'll be happy!" Perhaps for a change, you should let your engineers design the car instead of this marketing fear of the Versa cannibalizing your higher-end model sales.

Remember- Toyota started had the el cheapo Toyopet long ago. Honda started with the Civic. Very good value car with high satisfaction. Look now at Lexus. Look now at Acura. What does Nissan have? The so-so Infiniti. If you can't make a nice basic car, you'll never get the respect growing up.

Lesson: Say no to Infiniti if Nissan cannot do Versa right!

Modified by yerrago at 8:11 AM 11/8/2006
Modified by yerrago at 8:12 AM 11/8/2006

[BillStrong]

Actually Dashpots are used on throttlebodies as well as carbs. Toyota uses it on North American spec 4AGEs (MR2 and Corollas), but never used them on euro or asian spec engines.

I don't have any experiance with Nissan since tuning my 83.5 720 pickup (carbed).

Since I run a fairly large Toyota website I have contacts. Who has contacts with Nissan? Maybe get them involved with this thread, or at least via email.My email is [email protected]

[BillStrong]

I have sent a email to the editors at Road and Track...Quote »Hello,

My name is Bill Strong. I recently purchased a Nissan Versa S with the six-speed transaxle.In a report filed by Andrew Bornhop at the following web address:http://www.roadandtrack.com/ar...=3829He states, "While we typically prefer manuals, the pre-production Versa we sampled tended to hold its rpm between shifts, making it difficult to drive the car smoothly. A fix is planned for production, promises Nissan."

The "RPM Hold" keeps a person from driving the six-speed manual smoothly in traffic. Especially when you switch back and fourth between vehicals like I do. I also drive multiple Toyota MR2s. Now I know that the Versa is NOT a sports car, but the overall experience of driving this very nice car for the money is ruined once you get into traffic or into an area that requires you to shift up and down. My wife complains of whiplash on a daily basis.

In the article Mr. Bornhop stated that Nissan said that it would be fixed by the time the car went into production.

I can state without a doubt that it has not been fixed. In fact the consenses on a Nissan Message Boardhttp://forums.nicoclub.com/zer...07929Is that this issue is making a very good product look very bad.

I do understand that you are not a new car dealer, or a warranty repair center. Could you please pass this email onto Mr. Bornhop for review. If you have any contacts within Nissan that we can talk to to get this issue fixed could you please forward this email to them as well.

Thank you for your time.

------------------------------------------------------------------William D. Strong, Jr.Webmaster - Programmer AnalystCavalier ComputersA Division of the University of Virginia Bookstore[/quote]

[proxim2020]

So Bill, I remember you said that you thought the rpm's would hang because of a heavy fly wheel. Are you still going with that idea or do you think it's a combination of hardware and software?

[BillStrong]

The flywheel "feels" heavy. But probably because all of my MR2s use Fidanza aluminum. Once I discovered this was a fly-by-wire car, and that Nissan told R7T that the "RPM Hang" would be fixed I knew that it was now at least a software issue. Knowing that in order to meet certain emissions requirements car companies may need to make certain compromisses. This one may be the RPM hang to keep the HCs down to ULEVII levels. Or maybe it is just a bug. Only NISSAN knows. And I think that only Nissan can give us advise.

I have tried to contact my dealer. But have yet to get through... seems like they are always busy. My local dealer only stocks autos. I actually had to go to Staunton Va to purchase this car. They traded a black auto with a Greensboro NC dealer to get it for me.

[Elmojo]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but i for one want to personally welcome Bill to the board. It's refreshing to have someone here that speaks from experience and knowledge, rather than spewing trash based on personal opinion or sentiment.Bill, keep up the good work! It's people like you (and many others on this board) that are likely to get real answers to our questions and solutions for our gripes.

I personally agree that the hanging RPM issue must be almost completely software-based and therefore should be a 'simple' fix, if only Nissan will allow it. Do you think it would help if we all start complaining to our dealers?Will it raise the awareness level at Nissan corporate, or just get us branded as whiners and make it more difficult to have our warranty issues handled in the future?

Elmojo

[BillStrong]

From my experience with buying cars I believe that you have to start with the dealer. Unless you have a direct line or connection to corporate, then I dont think much will get done. Writting letters works as well. I am having a hard time finding any customer service email addresses at Nissan USA. I may need to look in my Versa manual. anyone have it?

[proxim2020]

Try this.

[email protected]

If you need the number into the corporate office in TN: (615) 856-2589

[FrayAdjacent]

I don't have a Versa yet, nor have I driven a 6MT Versa, but it sounds like the car does what my current car does: hold RPM when shifting for a moment or two.

It can be annoying, and yes, it is partly due to the ECU. IIRC, when you let off the gas and disengage the clutch, the engine backs off the timing as the load is relieved, and then it lets inertia take it's course.

Part of it is inertia itself! My current car has a very heavy flywheel, which has a tendency to want to continue spinning for a few moments.

And YES, this behavior CAN cause issues with shifting. The further from being in sync the engine and transmission are, the harder it is to shift. If the engine speed and transmission speed are in sync, you should be easily able to shift EVEN WITH THE CLUTCH ENGAGED! I don't recommend doing it, but I have a few times, and it works fine. (I've also had to drive my old Porsche home over 50 miles without a clutch... that was fun!)

So anyway, if the Versa has a heavy flywheel, which it might, an ECU upgrade might only make a small impact on this behavior.

[Juelze]

Quoted from the Road & Track website review of the Versa.http://www.roadandtrack.com/ar...=3829

So what did you fix? I get this every single day. and it is pissing me off the more I drive this car. My wife makes fun of my driving due to this "holding RPMs". I have been a licensed driver in the USA and Europe and have held a license since 1979. I know how to drive and I now how to shift.

Please... fix this issue

Modified by BillStrong at 8:35 AM 11/7/2006

I hear you, it took me a while to get used to driving stick in this car compared to my old car. I'm a lot better at it but sometimes it can be jerky if you aren't smooth. Very finicky transmission if you ask me. Anyway, it could be worse, we could have Vibe GT's or Matrix XRS with the 6 speed. They are known to have their clutches go out after 30,000 miles on them. As long as the car is reliable I can live with the weird clutch engagment.

[BillStrong]

I hear you, it took me a while to get used to driving stick in this car compared to my old car. I'm a lot better at it but sometimes it can be jerky if you aren't smooth. Very finicky transmission if you ask me. Anyway, it could be worse, we could have Vibe GT's or Matrix XRS with the 6 speed. They are known to have their clutches go out after 30,000 miles on them. As long as the car is reliable I can live with the weird clutch engagment.

I drove my 91 MR2 today. Man is that nice...though quite loud.. Those that know me know I am a MK1 MR2 fanatic and had a story about the world ending and my purchase of a 1991 MK2 MR2 being shown on the front cover of the National MR2 club magazine... My wife was not amused.But it was really nice to drive a car I did not have to think about while shifting. I race cars as well and have no problems adapting to differences in hardware. But the versa is just so way wrong.

I'll put something together for Nissan this weekend. It is nice to get customer compaints in your in-box on Mondays

[Juelze]

I drove my 91 MR2 today. Man is that nice...though quite loud.. Those that know me know I am a MK1 MR2 fanatic and had a story about the world ending and my purchase of a 1991 MK2 MR2 being shown on the front cover of the National MR2 club magazine... My wife was not amused.But it was really nice to drive a car I did not have to think about while shifting. I race cars as well and have no problems adapting to differences in hardware. But the versa is just so way wrong.

I'll put something together for Nissan this weekend. It is nice to get customer compaints in your in-box on Mondays

Sir, I appreciate your efforts in contacting Nissan. Can't wait to see what you get back.

[yerrago]

I don't have a Versa yet, nor have I driven a 6MT Versa, but it sounds like the car does what my current car does: hold RPM when shifting for a moment or two.

It can be annoying, and yes, it is partly due to the ECU. IIRC, when you let off the gas and disengage the clutch, the engine backs off the timing as the load is relieved, and then it lets inertia take it's course.

Part of it is inertia itself! My current car has a very heavy flywheel, which has a tendency to want to continue spinning for a few moments.

And YES, this behavior CAN cause issues with shifting. The further from being in sync the engine and transmission are, the harder it is to shift. If the engine speed and transmission speed are in sync, you should be easily able to shift EVEN WITH THE CLUTCH ENGAGED! I don't recommend doing it, but I have a few times, and it works fine. (I've also had to drive my old Porsche home over 50 miles without a clutch... that was fun!)

So anyway, if the Versa has a heavy flywheel, which it might, an ECU upgrade might only make a small impact on this behavior.

Fray, I hope the ECU and the talk about tradeoff between good shifting and the environment with the ULEVII isn't a smokescreen for poor design with the drivetrain.

Talking about tradeoffs with less pollution sounds more palatable than saying we have a heavy flywheel and so that it is the nature of the beast.

Nissan at least has to give an explanation to its customers and not leave us second-guessing on this. Bill, I'll write a letter also to Nissan, and maybe the rest of the group too will. Anyway we could help me draft a letter. We could use this to send to the dealer and send it also to Nissan direct. And if Nissan should pussyfoot around this which which we consider valid and close to our heart and soul, we can later kick things up a notch , a la Emeril Legasse.

[Magnes]

So anyone know of a shop that can reprogram this piece of crap?...

Whoa buddy, you have this all wrong. More and more cars are being purposely designed with a 'hanging throttle' for emissions reasons (probably in conjuction with the increased use of electronic throttles). The first one I noticed was a friend's '98 Prelude. Originally I thought, like Bill, that it was a heavy clutch, but then the engine was so easy to stall I did some research and found the 'hanging throttle' issue. This behaviour has also been reported on the latest Suzuki, the SX4.

If Nissan did, or will, do anything about it like R&T reported, the change could be so minuscule as to be unnoticeable. They still have to pass emissions testing don'tcha know? You will never be able to go to the dealer and get your PCM reprogrammed to fix this. An aftermarket company that specialises in microchip mods may be able to help, but the first guy to do it is going to pay a lot of money in R&D, then he will have to program the thing back to OE spec whenever the car is emissions tested.

It's just the new reality, you can accept it and move on or keep blowing fuses. Up to you.

[yerrago]

Thanks Magnes. Still it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If this were a problem with Versa and as you say it's the new reality, then I am to expect this same experience with the Honda Fit or the Toyota Yaris? Or pretty much every car that has a manual transmission?

And I really fail to understand how the hanging throttling could drastically lessen pollution. Can anyone care to give it a shot? I mean, is it in how the engine is programmed to idle such that when you get going on first gear, how it idles restricts the acceleration profile when shifting from neutral to first, and from first to second? For if there is one condition where there is great impact on emissions, it should be at the idle state, since there is a lot of time spent on idle on startup, waiting for the light, in stop and go traffic etc. The act of shifting from neutral to first, and from first to second gear, is only a relatively small fraction of the time spent idling.

If so, in accepting the "new reality," what kind of workarounds short of reprograming the chip, can I use?

One thing I've tried with mixed success is to step on the clutch and start from second gear instead of neutral, and then move to first gear when I start moving, and it somehow eliminates the "staccato lurch" I get when I start from neutral into first gear. Yet this still doesn't solve the jerk when I shift from first gear to second gear. But as xu-chen said earlier, it would help to rev higher before shifting to second. Well, by the process of revving higher, that sure defeats the intent of hanging throttling, which is to lessen pollution.

So, in effect, with a workaround in place to counter clumsy acceleration, we may just end up causing more emissions in a practical sense, screwing the official low ULEVII nature of the Nissan Versa.

Oh well, what else is new? You ban marijuana, you end up worse with synthetic forms "crack."

[rwanttaja]

And I really fail to understand how the hanging throttling could drastically lessen pollution. Can anyone care to give it a shot?

Sudden changes to operating condition cause inefficiencies of one sort or another. Take my other Nissan, for example. It backfires on every shift. I take my foot off the gas at the same time I push the clutch in, and hear a grumbled "pop pop pop" from the exhaust.

My guess is that the suddenly-closed throttle causes the fuel-air mixture to momentarily get so lean that it's below the point where the spark plug can ignite it. The excess gas gets dumped into the exhaust, where it gets ignited by the hot gasses from the cylinders which are firing normally.

Obviously, dumping raw gas into the exhaust, or burning gasoline outside the cylinder, is going to produce more pollutants than a controlled ignition inside the cylinder. My other Nissan (a pickup) did this when new, and the dealer couldn't do anything for it. It still does it, 23 years since I bought it. Doesn't appear to be a reliability issue.

I suspect the backfiring from this phenomenon is more common than one would suspect. My first car, a 1946 Willys Jeep (which I did NOT buy new! :-) did not normally do it. BUT, I could turn the ignition off while driving, leave it in gear and coast for a moment, then turn the ignition on and blow the exaust pipe out of the front of the muffler with a huge backfire. With the Jeep them operating with straight pipes, I could hear a minor backfire during shifts. The muffer backpressure was either preventing the shifting backfire, or was deadening it so it couldn't be heard.

The easiest way to prevent this from happening is to control the throttle position to damp out sudden changes. And the Versa, being an entry-level car, gets the cheapest and easiest solution.

Ron

[BenDupre]

You got it backwards. Closing the throttle while the engine is revving high actually causes unburned fuel because of lack of oxygen for combustion.

I don't understnd the problem well enough to explain why they can compensate by just cutting back the mixture.

In carbureted engines, the sudden closure of the throttle would cause a spurt of gas through the carb as the vacuum jumped up. In older cars, combustion in the exhaust system was common during coasting or shifting.

Ben

[yerrago]

Take comfort Ben. I'm at the dealership now and the service techs have no clue and couldn't care less about the issue. They spout the same line about the "new reality" with fly-by-wire vehicles. I don't buy it coz if that's the case "fly by wire" takes us to a new level of retro, the bad kind, where we deal with problems and live with it. The service tech perspective and training is very different from that of an enthusiast. They follow TSB's and standard training procedure, goes by the company rulebook, and is trained to not ask questions. They rely on the computer to give them answers, not questioning where the computer could go wrong in the analysis.

Nissan encourages such behavior as there is uniformity. In our case, such uniformity works to our disadvantage because our problems are not solved and we are told to adjust our behavior towards the lack of responsiveness of the 6-speed manual Versa.

I don't buy it if grandma next to me leaves me in the dust when we take off from standstill off the light turning green. Imagine a spoof of a Nissan Versa commercial, and see how funny that would get. Can anybody work with me with my Nissan Versa, bring their grandma with them, and have a camera so we can make this spoof and post in on Youtube? Let me know. I'm in L.A. which is appropriate for a short movie. Hell, let's shoot it in my dealership here in Torrance.

Any takers?