new wheels with mysteriously hot fittiment plus why I love Zeal function V6's

[continental_drift]

edited for relevance by continental_drift.

SSR reverse formula

front 15x8 +14et (installed) rear 15x7.5 -5et (being revalved, pics later today)

love to hear your thoughts.

Micah
Modified by continental_drift at 3:04 AM 11/15/2005

[continental_drift]

another taste...

[continental_drift]

flush with the top of the fender.

[continental_drift]

speaking of DUMPED...the front bumper lip sits just over 3 and 1/4 inches off the ground, and from the front mudguards lowest point...under 2 and 1/4 inches of clearance...thats the height and width of a california state drivers license! amazingly, the coilovers keep it RIGHT where it needs to be to JUST clear for semi normal driving!

[Exar-Kun]

scrub radious and ideal frame height. Look them up, might also want to check into hub stress and offset too. Low offset does not a 'hot fitment' make. It makes it incorrect.

oh yeah, and nice choice in coilovers, Zeal makes nice stuff.

(Yes, I realise I'm raining on your parade..but I'm willing to bet you thought you'd get a lot of drift kids, and you might, clamoring all over the high dollar coils and 'flush wheels' )

-Chet

[chmercer]

not my style for sure.

take your mudflaps off

[continental_drift]

the coils ARE expensive, but I've been privy to many other "expensive" coils and nothing has ever compared to these V6's with the exception of the Cusco's my friend ran on his S14. The function V6 can vary the ride height without changing spring preload, which is great for adjustability and consitency, as are the included zeal camber plates helpful in tuning. also, there is so much range of dampning that It could handle being at any height...stock, or frame down, adjustability is EVERYTHING in finding what the ideal feel is for your personal vehicle.

maybe you can help me with something chet. the 15x8 +14 does not have a lot of clearance past the shockbody, but its just enough to feel safe about it, what width/et do you reccomend to clear this particular suspension setup without using wheel spacers? the current rears are 15x6 +40 and have little clearance as well, but do not rub the zeal shockbody. I'll post some pics of the rear probably tomorrow night and try to take pics of the front clearance, sourced the valvestems today (tire shop couldn't get them, so they just paid out and I got them.) putting them on in the morning before work. thanks for your help,

Micah


Modified by continental_drift at 2:53 AM 11/15/2005

[continental_drift]

I like the mudflaps as an alternative to sideskirts, thanks for the comments though! not everyone has the same taste, which is ok.

Micah

[Exar-Kun]

I'm at work right now, but I'll reply after work to you. Promise!-Chet

[continental_drift]

the new small valve stems from that shop do not fit the ssr wheels. back to square one.

[nismofly]

may i ask why you have 1/2 inch wider front wheels?

just to get the look right with the offset?

[continental_drift]

cause I'm gonna see how it works out. I like to experiment. and if it does not offer effective grip in front, then I'll swap them out for a width that will.195/55/15 dunlop fm901's in front, baby stretched on the 8,

picked the wheels/loose tires up from the tire shop, pissed , and just notwanting to deal with them anymore. went to a place that my buddy reccomended, so the rears are now on the car after driving around all daySTILL trying to get the right valvestem/gromit set.

so the rears are running off brand performance tires in 205/55/15...next set might be 205/50, however I might just look for a 55 with a stiffer sidewall, you guys know of a tire that comes in 205/55/15 with a good sidewall? pretty sure its going to need a little pulling on the rear fenders or bolt on over fenders. I turned up my rear dampning from 3 to 5 after hearing the drivers side rear tire rub the fender a couple times driving home from the tire shop. heres some pics.

Micah

[continental_drift]

it needs a bath, but still clean.

[McRussellPants]

scrub radious and ideal frame height. Look them up, might also want to check into hub stress and offset too. Low offset does not a 'hot fitment' make. It makes it incorrect.

IIRC Zeals have scrub radius adjustment and it should be well within its range to bring an 8J with a postive offset into spec.

Ideal Frame height? (googled it... nothing showed up for cars) so I'll take that as a stab at roll center. Its a 240SX, any decently low 240 is gonna have an crappy roll center. it does make a car handle marginally worse, but I have yet to hear someone say a slammed car doesn't feel good.

Hub Stress??? On a 15x8 with a 205 tire??? Come on now, thats silly. There are people tracking the exact same bearings no problem with 18x9.5, negative offset and sticky tires. Mercer runs 12J -22 and has yet to have a problem.

Anyhoo, I think that car looks pretty fair enough. I wouldn't ever do it but I can apprecaite a old schoolish look.

Also, when it comes to low... 15s are cheating

[ale89se]

Also, when it comes to low... 15s are cheating

if the gods wanted anything begger than 15's on our cars then it would have came stock!

btw nice car and congrats on getting your wheels on!

[Exar-Kun]

He may be able to bring it into spec, but I doubt it.

Also, ideal frame height is refering to how low the car can be dropped without adversly affecting suspension travell, camber gain, and the voerall geometry. GRM had a nice article regarding it earlier in the year, with a small quip by David Visard(sp?).

"There are people tracking the exact same bearings no problem with 18x9.5, negative offset and sticky tires. Mercer runs 12J -22 and has yet to have a problem..."

Good for him. I know the guy, and we've had lots of threads about his choices....and he understands the risks and issues with his setup. Most people don't. I'm sure everyone knows people that have things WRONG, but still work. S-chassis to have good strong bearings, but they can and will beak with stuff like that. I've seen it on 3 cars to date, 2 S13's and an S14.

also, the artificial track width increase by running a low offset wheel will cause in inner edge of the tire to load more than the outside because of leverage, leading to handling issues, as well as increasing the stress the rest of the rotating assembly sees in daily use (like when you hit bumps)

If the Zeal coilover has a way to adjust the scrub radious, that would really be impressive.

To answer the origional posters question:

I wouldn't run a 15"x8" wheel at all in the first place. If you arne't going to utilise the increased turn in a brake clearance you get from a larger diameter wheel, you can get plenty of sticky tires on a 15x7 or even the stock SE alloys, and you won't ahve to stretch them, or have clearance issues. I find it odd a 15x8+14 would be so close to the shock body, but since the coilover is angled away from the car, the lower diameter rim would put the flange closer than a larger one...

I'd probably run something like a 17x7.5 or 17x8 +25ish wheel, which would keep everything in check nicely, clear the majority of coilovers and brake setups, and allow a larger selection of sticker tires...oh wait, I DID do that with my S13.

Check into the BFGoodrich G-force sport, which has a nice ammount of sidewall stiffnes, and if you';re willing to ante up some serious cash, you can get the Bridgestone S03 or Michelin Pilot exalto PE2 in that size. Both will be absolutely delightfully grippy tires for you.

Hope that helps!-Chet

[continental_drift]

thanks for the info chet. I doubt i'll change the fronts but hearing that, Imay look for the same wheel in a +10 for the rear, no promises. I guess itsnot as much the shock body but moreso the lower mounting flange attached to the shock body that has very little clearance. I took somepictures of it, I'll try to post when I get home from work.

O.G. Russell pants : you're like johnny cochrane bro... I want you on myside in court, haha.

ale89se: amen.

oh and about the 17 inch wheels...doesn't that increase rotational mass, inturn killing HP? atleast with a N/A KA motor? I've seen before and after dyno numbers that proves increasing rotational mass (+ sizing the diameter of the wheel) runs lower numbers on a dynamometer than astock sizing, regardless of the et...is that accurate and you're just stating apreference or am I mistaken? thanks for the info! oh, and when I start driving this one hard enough to warrant it (ie, after allgeneral safety/maintenance/upgrades are complete) I had already plannedon raising the overall height around an inch front and rear.

Micah

[continental_drift]

alright, these pictures are not fantastic but I think they demonstrate the amount of clearance. I fear that even if I upsized diameter with too high of an offset, the shock body would fall into dangerous range.

[McRussellPants]

He may be able to bring it into spec, but I doubt it.

If the Zeal coilover has a way to adjust the scrub radious, that would really be impressive.

I don't actually know if the Zeals have it, but alot of the JDM coilovers I see do have it. Thats what the slotted hole on the bottom bracket is for, most people think its for camber which would just be redundant since any good coil comes with camber plates.

Also, ideal frame height is refering to how low the car can be dropped without adversly affecting suspension travell, camber gain, and the voerall geometry. GRM had a nice article regarding it earlier in the year, with a small quip by David Visard(sp?)..

Err... I don't know if I have that one... but I believe I've seen it. Personally I run max low KTS coilovers (tucking tread on ST115 in 235/40) and I will Never raise my car, I love the way it feels and looks. It could handle .1 of a G worse than a higher car and it bumpsteers (no Outters) but I still like it 1000 times more than Tokicos and RSR Race springs

Good for him. I know the guy, and we've had lots of threads about his choices....and he understands the risks and issues with his setup. Most people don't. I'm sure everyone knows people that have things WRONG, but still work. S-chassis to have good strong bearings, but they can and will beak with stuff like that. I've seen it on 3 cars to date, 2 S13's and an S14. ?

On what size and offset? I know two people that have had wheel bearing problems, both of them running waaayyy mild wheeels (17x7.5 +40ish 17x8 +25). Personally, I feel that wheel offset (on street tires anyway) is way down on the list for things that cause bearings to fail.

also, the artificial track width increase by running a low offset wheel will cause in inner edge of the tire to load more than the outside because of leverage, leading to handling issues, as well as increasing the stress the rest of the rotating assembly sees in daily use (like when you hit bumps)?

I don't get this, that sounds like more of a camber problem... But, undeniably a wider track is better for handling (Pontiac says so... DUH). I also really dont see how it could be called artificial? since really the only thing your missing out on is longer suspension links for better geometry.

I wouldn't run a 15"x8" wheel at all in the first place. If you arne't going to utilise the increased turn in a brake clearance you get from a larger diameter wheel, you can get plenty of sticky tires on a 15x7 or even the stock SE alloys, and you won't ahve to stretch them, or have clearance issues. I find it odd a 15x8+14 would be so close to the shock body, but since the coilover is angled away from the car, the lower diameter rim would put the flange closer than a larger one..

Zeals have notoriously small lower brackets... I think Ive heard you need a +10 or less on the front to clear a 17x9J

I'd never do a 15x8 either, but some people dig the old school look... I did for a while... when the only Hyperrev I had was from 1996.

I don't want to come off as overly argumentive, I just think its weird your pushing all this stuff in a realitively consertive fitment thread. Prolly would have been better suited for that "look at my +10 18x9.5J Sportmaxes that don't fit thread"

[continental_drift]

from the front. outside my work earlier. sticking your arm inside the wheel well, shooting blindly with your phone camera while trying to catch the light is a pita.

[Exar-Kun]

I don't mind the fielding of more advanced discussion

"I don't want to come off as overly argumentive, I just think its weird your pushing all this stuff in a realitively consertive fitment thread. Prolly would have been better suited for that "look at my +10 18x9.5J Sportmaxes that don't fit thread""

unfortuantely, I've light into enough people, I can only go about it so often without looking like a bad guy. THe only reason I picked this one, interestingly, was the "flush" statement...

Also, something I thought of this wekeend after being at LPG with Michelin during the morning was effective wheel rate, and how lowering the offset so much will decrease it. Also, the loading of the inner edge is a function of the scrub radious and offset, I've seen plenty of jeeps, etc with very low offset wheels moking the inner edge because of this....(yes, jeeps run lower offsets, but the smyptoms caused by it will be the same)...

Also, your correct that hub stress might be low on the list of many people's thoughts, but I think it's better to ve informed about it, and choose to deal with any problems than to let someon go about modifying the car ignroant of the resulting issues that may come up...

Cheers.

Drift: At a minimum make sure you don't decrease your rear track width in respect to the front..IE running a 14 front and a +25 rear... that can mess with your track differential, elading to some..odd handling issues.

Yay for LPG tests! (Laurens proving ground)-Chet

Edit: go typos...

[C-Kwik]

CD: the clearance between your wheel/tire and your shock/spring looks fine. The wheels would have to flex an ungodly amount to cause contact. And with your tires stretched on, the tires don't look to be an issue at all.

As far as scrub radius, the more you push a tire out, the more likely you will increase the scrub radius. This is especially true on a MacPherson strut design as the steering axis tends to hit the ground around the inner edge of the tire. As far as scrub radus adjustmsnt, keep in mind that these slots will adjust the camber as well. To me, the camber adjustment would take place much more in the slot than at a camber plate. Which would leave the camber plate to adjust scrub radius as it's moving the upper steering axis, effectively pushing the point where the steering axis hits the ground further out on the tire. But both the slot and the camber plate adjust camber and you would have to adjust them simultaneously for best results. Though, even then, the level of adjustement is not going to be great. But, running a bit of extra negative camber may pull the center of the contact patch inward and effectively decrease scrub radius.

Keep in mind guys that Chet isn't necessarily speaking of this set up directly as he would actually have to see the set-up first hand to really be able to be specific as would anyone else. His mindset is on the overall approach to making a better handling system or at the very least reducing the negative effects of making certain suspension changes. Adding parts does not make a car handle better. Making them work well together is what tuning suspensions is really all about. There is a bigger picture to see here.

[continental_drift]

this is great stuff guys. I appreciate the participation. addressing a couple issues, I only used the term "flush" because it was applicable, not because I'm 16 and this is my first car that I'm buying cause noone had a hachi forsale in my limited walking distance. I'm 26, and in thinking about it, this is my 10th car.

ok, so I'm a *****n car-stitute, my bad.

my point, is that this is something not something I stumbled uponovernight. issue addressed.

I had an fc rx7 that I modified and drifted the **** out of, which was fun. I ran 15x7 +37 ATS comp lites on it at 12 lbs a piece, pretty conservative, right? on my OTHER coupe, which got ******d up by thieves, I had 20mm (20 millimeter = 0.7874016 inch) kics hub adapter(spacers) on the front,running stock alloys (15x6 +40) with 205 55 15 sized tires. so if we're getting technical, the 15x8 +14 is not a far cry from where I was already at guys. as far as the hub is concerned, the track width has not changed significantly from the old set up, nor has handling feel per the similarity.less that the lower profile of the 195 55 15 seems to grab a good bit on an 8 inch rim. I am aware that lowering the offset may have negative side effects. if it outweights the benefit of having a light weight wheel with a wide trackin control of the front end and I can not live with it, I will change it.issue addressed. ok, heres the thing. do you guys really think I would slide this thing with those rears on there? the stocks will go back onto the rear running theother set of 205 55 15s. I never said "look how good my car drifts withthese wheels". it was more like "look how good my car looks with thesewheels", once again my bad, but i'm not the only one that does it :::coughSRSMITHcough::: j/k issue addressed.

the zeal's upper camber plates, (which were on my other coupe as well)running the sizing aforementioned, only needed minor adjustment fromalmost full negative, to full negative. I was looking and as far as I can tell there is not a slotted lower so my camber/scrub radius is adjustable only from above. as far as the clearance, my camera doesn't do it justice. I'll put something down there for reference like a penny. it's close enough to notwant it aaaannny closer. I'm not happy with the 205 55's on the 7.5 wheel. next set will be lower profile and these ones will be drift tires for the stocks.

As I said, I will not be drifting this car until it is fully safe with all issues addressed, as with ANY car pushin 16 years old that was purchased stockwith only basic maintenance done to it, it needs some attending to...theres no reason for it not to look good in the interim, and I think it looks goodplus lowered cars just feel better...to me.

I really do appreciate the feedback, keep it coming. Obviously you know more aspects of the tecnical side than I do in regards to some of this stuff, so all of your information helps me in the long, and short run. thanks!

Micah

[McRussellPants]

Honestly, I'm not going to belive that lower offset wheels are detrimental to actual handling until I see a side by side comarison. I'd love to see a comparison in laptimes / split times / G-logger between the same car with the same wheels with the only difference being 20mm spacer. I believe that the car with the wider track will be faster, since I think the benefits of a wider track and less weight transfer would out weigh the negatives of lower effective wheel rate... (perhaps the spacered car would do better with more camber then?).

I think most of the arguments agianst lower offest wheels are about "car feel". Also, I think alot of the people arguing agaist it have never done it. I can't honestly say myself if theres actually a noticeable difference in two offsets since A) I went from shocks/springs to my current setup at one time anb B) my old setup was nowhere near good enough to be a baseline.

I have 17x9 +20 and I don't really agree with the car feel part either. Since we dont have to deal with torque steer, all it really leaves is bump and brake steer. To date I haven't noticed any brake steer at all and and even the bump steer isn't something that would cause me to get hiffy about (it is noticeably more than the old higher and +42 7.5 setup though. although I am a good 2.5in lower with no outter tie rods.)

Perhaps one day I'll do something to be able to fit 17x9 +0 all around and then see for myself.

[continental_drift]

Chet,

I went back and re-read your last post. you said :

"Drift: At a minimum make sure you don't decrease your rear track width inrespect to the front..IE running a 14 front and a +25 rear... that can messwith your track differential, elading to some..odd handling issues."

Can you go into a little more detail regarding this specific clause and how itmight effect me in my plan to put stocks on the rear for drift sessions? IfI'm reading you right, you're saying any rear that equals out to higheroffset (less track width) than the x8 +14 will handle oddly. ------------Russell,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, mainly because this is the second set up I've run under similar circumstances, and to me, it feels very much the same as the last. When I couldn't get the rears on for a few days and Iwas running the stocks back there, it felt dead on like the old set up(with spacers). so that, to me, equals predictable (but the numbers may may speak differently).

Micah

[Exar-Kun]

well, pretty much, the wider the track, the less lateral weight transfer/better loading/better handling of the car..back OR front.

so if you increase your front track wdith more than the front, you can help reduce understeer and vice versa. I wouldn't reccomend this as a handling adjustment choice per se, just something to note.

Also, the difference in track from front to rear can cause different reactions to bumps in mid-turn at each end of the car..not a good thing, if you asked me. I prefer to keep the difference in offsets/track from front to rear at the stock level, if not a bit more track in the rear than front. If this induced a bit of understeer, you can walys tune that out a bit later :p

-Chet

[continental_drift]

ok, I see what you're saying here because I was intentionally trackingwider in the front and using negative camber to reduce understeer and increase the front's grip on my last set up. so as to directly relate this to my concerns about running thestock +40 with 205/55/15 on the rear as drift wheels,your reccomendation (if I insist on running 15x8 +14 up front). would be to run a comparable size around +10 to +14 so as to reduce theinset of track width from front to rear, is that correct? I'm just trying tomake sure that I've got you straight here, because I'm taking all of this seriously into consideration since this car will eventually be put throughsome "hard driving" conditions... I'm looking forward to it

[Exar-Kun]

You're correct, unless you've factored the track width/weight transfer stuff into your overall chassis setup scheme, keeping them close from F/R is the best option.

-Chet