new tires go on the REAR!

[07Vsdn]

the topic of which axle to put new tires (when only replacing two) came up on another forum. i did some research and thought i'd add it here, too. regardless of drivetrain, new tires go on the rear to prevent oversteer.

it is a serious issue of safety, and even liability, if you go to the website of the lawyer at the end.

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goodyear: rear.

http://www.goodyeartires.com/faqs/Care.html#9

bfgoodrich: rear.

http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com...otate

pirelli: rear.

http://www.us.pirelli.com/web/....page

michelin: rear.

http://www.michelinman.com/tir...tires

dunlop: rear.

http://www.dunloptires.com/car...tRear

cooper: rear.

http://www.coopertire.com/html...n.asp

falken: rear.

http://www.falkentire.com/medi...e.pdf

TIRE INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION! rear.

http://www.tireindustry.org/ti...S.asp

tirerack.com: rear.

http://www.anrdoezrs.net/click...%3D52

discount tire: rear.

http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTiresRear.dos

popular mechanics: rear.

http://www.popularmechanics.co....html

allexperts.com: rear.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Tir...s.htm (references a study he conducted for discount tire)

autos.msn.com: rear.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com...34704

video from michelin explaining why to put new tires on rear.

http://www.michelinman.com/tir...hange/

attorney ready to sue for improper installation/negligence causing an accident: rear.

http://www.fishtail.tv/wrongfu....html


Modified by 07Vsdn at 10:49 PM 1/25/2009

[reyes1212]

What about Kumho?I'm sure they are rear as well...but yeah just checking.

[07Vsdn]

i checked EVERY manufacturer website out there. they either said rear or nothing at all.

kumho said nothing.
Modified by 07Vsdn at 11:01 PM 1/25/2009

[boxcarbill]

"Oversteer" is avoided by knowing how to drive. A good driver is not in need of ABS either.Higher tread tires ALWAYS go on the front of my car. It won't be long till they are even with the back.It time all this crap will become manditory, at that time we can all drive like idiots and hope all the rules save us.

[SuperTurbo]

Funny thing is those tire manufactur never said that you suppose to change all 4 tires, not only 2 tires! LOL

sometimes, I don't even know what you say.... if all 4 are worn, and you are tryin to be cheap, to change only 2, and use that other 2 for a bit more, then you crash your car due to the back have no friction..... Shouldn't you get sue for improper maintaince or something similar??

[mightyversa]

When doing the AST course, to install 2 of the same tires on 1 given axle is perfectly normal, as long as you dont use 2 different ones. So for example, you can use Nexen3000's on the back and Nexen5000's on the front, BUT, idealy you want all match tires for front and rear.

Boxcarbill. I somewhat agree with what you said. I do see people that cant drive worth the screw and it wouldnt matter if you put ALL 4 TIRES on, lmao, but yeah, people can get away with new tires on the front depending on driving style. Although I dont risk the chance with a 2 year old in my back seat, but to each his own!

[silverarrow27]

I usually keep it simple and swap out all four tires out with new ones. These oem Continentals suck...gforce tires are going on after these babies wear out.

[mightyversa]

I agree, when I change tires, I change all 4. When I see that my fronts are a bit worn more than my rear I rotate them, but when they are gone, I change all 4. The Continentals do suck big time, but what can you expect, they were put on a vehicle that was meant to be the lowest priced vehicle these past couple years!

[silverarrow27]

Hey, that's true. At least they ride quiet and gets me from point A to point B for now. Planning to get a set of Tanabe Sustecs maybe this summer.

[Red Devil]

If you somehow cause oversteer in a FWD car without trying(i.e. pulling the e-brake to try to drift) then you get an award. It's difficult to induce oversteer in a car that doesn't send any power to the rear wheels.

[randyshemin@comcast.]

Rotate your tires (I do every second oil change) and replace all 4 when they're worn out.

As for ABS, it's probably one of the greatest safety innovations that unfortunately most people do not understand. Only 1 of our 4 cars have it. I wish they all did.

[cardocktor]

Lol, GM is actually thinking about taking the ABS out of their vehicles because of new studies. Take a looky here!!!

http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs98f.htm

I dont like ABS at all, I can control my car better by having a CBS, I can control the skid, steer and stopping power I want. I think ABS is dangerous in my part of the world, but maybe its better the more south you go, interesting article!

[mightyversa]

Hey Cardocktor, your like 100 kilometers away from me!! Oh wait, I created that account to post a reply while someone was using my account, lol, too bad a took an Information System Specialist course as well, lol....Computers and Auto Mechanics go hand in hand with me.

[fjwagner]

Lol, GM is actually thinking about taking the ABS out of their vehicles because of new studies. Take a looky here!!!

http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs98f.htm

I dont like ABS at all, I can control my car better by having a CBS, I can control the skid, steer and stopping power I want. I think ABS is dangerous in my part of the world, but maybe its better the more south you go, interesting article!

I beg to differ that ABS is dangerous. Just because you found an article on the internet, does not mean it is valid. ABS is one of the best safety features around and used properly, will prevent accidents. I would venture to say that many do not know how to use them properly. Go to a driving school and learn what your car can do; especially the braking and I bet you will change your opinion.

[randyshemin@comcast.]

I beg to differ that ABS is dangerous. Just because you found an article on the internet, does not mean it is valid. ABS is one of the best safety features around and used properly, will prevent accidents. I would venture to say that many do not know how to use them properly. Go to a driving school and learn what your car can do; especially the braking and I bet you will change your opinion.

I noted that the biggest issue with ABS is MOST people not knowing how it works.

Cut-rate engineering issues and problems with ABS in some applications as noted in the article do not mitigate the fact that if used properly, ABS is a good thing.

[mightyversa]

I cant say I went to driving school...lol...only for getting my drivers permit back when I was 16. ABS is not really new to me because I owned an ABS Sunfire and at work I drove an Oldsmobile Silhouette Premium Edition. I found that in the winter on icy and snowy roads, although yes the stop and release the ABS motor is kickin in and helping, I just cant see the big difference. I wouldnt have posted that article if it wasnt!!

Known IssuesABS does not necessarily provide a shorter stopping distance. It won't stop you on a dime, either. Its primary advantage: It allows a driver to continue to maintain steering control and avoid skidding while stopping. Still, there have been issues with ABS. Safety officials expected to see immediate results in real-world crash data as ABS became more prevalent on new vehicles.But at least two studies in the 1990s, performed in the U.S. by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, showed little overall difference in crash rates between cars with ABS and those without them.A later NHTSA study, which included a wider sample of vehicles and was released in 2000, stated ABS "appears to be beneficial in preventing pedestrian crashes, rollovers, run-off-road crashes and frontal crashes with another moving vehicle."

I think thats pretty credible information dont you think? NHTSA and IIHS? What about the Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) If you cant trust these guys than who can you trust?

As in driving an ABS vehicle properly, I know I can. Press hard as you can and steer, thats pretty much it, but with CBS, I use a combonation of Hand brake, Brake and gas....believe it or not, I can control my Versa with CB's better than the ABS sunfire I had.....and both of them are similar towards tire condition and so forth. If ABS were the great invention they are supposed to be, im sure alot of vehicles would have it standard, but how many of them today have it standard? Yeah, my thoughts exactly. More CBS than ABS

[Rex]

Let me ask for anyone that stumbles across this thread and doesn't "know" the Versa is FWD ... Is the consensus here that the go on the front or on the drive wheels?

[07Vsdn]

ideally, the manufacturers suggest replacing all four tires. in real life they know a lot of people don't rotate their tires and or can't afford/need all four tires so they only buy two. in that case they say always put the two new tires on the rear, regardless of which ones are being replaced, to prevent oversteer regardless of whether the car is fwd or rwd.

i have one more link/quote from "police fleet manager" september 2007 issue, representatives from goodyear and bridgestone/firestone said at the 2007 police expo:

"Second, when you put just two new tires on a car, put them on the rear. Under slippery conditions, better tires on the rear prevent oversteer, even in FWD cars. "

http://www.hendonpub.com/publi...nager/

[Knightro2]

I've always heard new tires go on the rear no matter what. But I've never made that make sense in my head for FWD vehicles. Since the 2 front wheels are really doing everything and the rear wheels are just rolling along it would make sense for the 2 new tires to go on the front.

But there are other brilliant minds out there that have researched this and since it has been said again and again I guess I agree with them. Just still seems stupid.

[07Vsdn]

"Oversteer" is avoided by knowing how to drive. A good driver is not in need of ABS either.Higher tread tires ALWAYS go on the front of my car. It won't be long till they are even with the back.It time all this crap will become manditory, at that time we can all drive like idiots and hope all the rules save us.

i would say that "knowing how to drive" includes knowing that no one is perfect and that no one can control their environment and what OTHER people do (hence the term "defensive driving"). let me be the first to pat you on your back that you "know how to drive"... so what about the other few million people you have to share the road with?

in regards to ABS, it is scientifically proven to shorten stopping distances in most situations compared to non-ABS equipped cars. good for you if you think you will never be the cause of an accident but what happens if you are the other, innocent, party involved? that is to say, what if someone pulls out in front of you on a snowy road where ABS would have made the difference? if i had a wife and kids i wouldn't let my arrogance and self-rightousness get in the way of their safety and health.

i'm sorry, sir, but there are some things machines and computers can do better then you. i can't compete with my wife's battery-operated-boyfriend. big deal, it's not a reflection on me. it's a superier design!

do you tell your passengers that they "don't need no stinkin" seatbelts and airbags when they ride with you because you "know how to drive"?

any two-year-old could point out the fatal flaw in your narcissistic world view, "what about drunk drivers, daddy?"

simple fact is that understeer is easier to control and recover from then oversteer.

allow me to quote another poster:

"Average driver run good tires in the rear.Superman-complex drivers run good tires in the front.Smart drivers run good tires all around. "
Modified by 07Vsdn at 11:52 AM 1/26/2009

[SuperTurbo]

Actually.... howcome no one mention about the spare tires?? LOL

Shouldn't you trash that spare tire, and buy a new one every single 2-3 yr?

This topic suddenly makes me remember a guy get 4 brand new full size spare tires from junk yard, and put it on his civic

[randyshemin@comcast.]

Actually.... howcome no one mention about the spare tires?? LOL

Shouldn't you trash that spare tire, and buy a new one every single 2-3 yr?

This topic suddenly makes me remember a guy get 4 brand new full size spare tires from junk yard, and put it on his civic

In reality, tires should not be used if they are 6 years old or older, even if they are "brand new" and never installed.

Here's one site that bears that out, but there are many others:http://nhtsa.com/portal/site/s...8RCRD

Video from ABC News:http://www.truveo.com/Aged-Tir...25407

[fjwagner]

I found that in the winter on icy and snowy roads, although yes the stop and release the ABS motor is kickin in and helping, I just cant see the big difference. I wouldnt have posted that article if it wasnt!!

Known IssuesABS does not necessarily provide a shorter stopping distance. It won't stop you on a dime, either. Its primary advantage: It allows a driver to continue to maintain steering control and avoid skidding while stopping.

As in driving an ABS vehicle properly, I know I can. Press hard as you can and steer, thats pretty much it, but with CBS, I use a combonation of Hand brake, Brake and gas....believe it or not, I can control my Versa with CB's better than the ABS sunfire I had.....and both of them are similar towards tire condition and so forth. If ABS were the great invention they are supposed to be, im sure alot of vehicles would have it standard, but how many of them today have it standard? Yeah, my thoughts exactly. More CBS than ABS

The ability to steer while hard braking is a tremendous safety feature. The flaw in the studies is that it is not the ABS brakes, but lack of training in use of those brakes that is driving the results. I venture to say that the study results would change if a higher percentage of people actually knew what ABS was. Much easier than your hand brake, brake and gas technique.

I took my 16 year old son to a high performance driving school for teens where they were taught car control and that included use of ABS at high speed while maneuvering. Three months later, that skill kept him out of an accident. He learned and he applied. The study reaches the wrong conclusion in my mind.

For outstanding drivers like you, ABS may not add much. For the masses it certainly does.

PS: we lived in Norway for a number of years and ABS was a distinct advantage on snow and ice.

Modified by fjwagner at 6:47 PM 1/26/2009
Modified by fjwagner at 6:49 PM 1/26/2009

[themadscientist]

I want my best feet controlling direction. Understeer puts you through a guardrail, oversteer puts you into the fun zone!

Sorry couldn't find any pictures of a Versa drifting.

[fjwagner]

you obviously missed this thread

zerothread?id=396517

[sooner4x4]

To understand why new tires should go on the rear when replacing just two of the tires, you first have to accept two basic facts:

1. General well understood principles of physics must apply.2. It is assumed the new tires grip the road surface better.

If the two tires on the rear of the car do not grip the road as good as the front tires (lower coefficient of friction), and all the tires loose traction, the rear tires will be going faster than the front tires. This will cause the rear of the car to go faster than the front of the car, some will call this oversteer, in an extreme case, it is called spinning out.

Some may remember the earliest days of antilock brakes. On many cars the antilock brakes just worked on the rear wheels (2 wheel ABS). Again this was because if you lost traction you didn't want the rear wheels to lock up and not the front, because when tires lock up, there is a lower coefficient of friction. Skidding tires have a lower coefficient of friction and go faster than tires that are still gripping.

Tonight we are having a major ice storm here. I have seen many examples of bad driving and loss of control. ABS will not fix bad driving, but it greatly improves safety on icy roads. I have driven all kinds of cars on ice and ABS is a major help. To all of the ABS non-believers out there, there is also a group called the flat earth society, those who still believe the earth is flat.

[MinisterofDOOM]

With my Maxima (FWD and relatively gutless), I'd want my best tires in front without any question.With the Q (RWD and not remotely gutless), I want my best tires in back where they'll keep things in check.I perfer replacing 4 tires at a time, though. I want to be able to depend on both ends of my car equally, regardless of drivetrain format.

Understeer puts you through a guardrail, oversteer puts you into the fun zone!

Best summary possible.

Also, most cars have a front-wheel brake bias. I want my good tires doing the braking.

For the record, ABS can get bent. I've never had a situation where I found myself thinking "gee, I wish I had ABS to help me stop." Not on dry pavement, not on wet pavement, not in snow, not in mud, not on ice. I'll take USER error over EQUIPMENT error any day, thanks. At least I'm 100% in control of the former.

simple fact is that understeer is easier to control and recover from then oversteer.

I disagree. Oversteer can be corrected MUCH more easily than understeer. If you're understeering, braking won't help (indeed, it may well have been part of the cause) and accelerating won't help (you are trying to make the turn and not end up in the curb/guardrail right?). What will?Oversteer, on the other hand, is much more manageable. You can steer out of it. If you're rwd you can modulate throttle to gain traction. If you're FWD you can modulate braking to gain traction.

Understeer is LOSS OF STEERING TRACTION. That is very bad. About as bad as things can get in an automobile.Oversteer is a loss of rear traction. At worst, you loose acceleration capability. You retain steering traction, which means you retain the capability to recover. Steer out of it. Try steering out of understeer. It probably means steering INTO an obstacle.

[sKyWaLkeR512]

If you somehow cause oversteer in a FWD car without trying(i.e. pulling the e-brake to try to drift) then you get an award. It's difficult to induce oversteer in a car that doesn't send any power to the rear wheels.

Although I say I'd agree with you....my hatch will lose its back end if i whip it hard enough. (not to say that it doesn't regain traction almost immediately BECAUSE it has no power to the back wheels) but I had it happen when I whipped out of the way of someone rear ending someone in front of me. Just saying that this is one of those times where if someone put the new tires up front and the balding ones in the back could have resulted in something more tragic than just sliding a few feet.

[lordthygod]

*new tires go on the front in a fwd you need far more traction from the front tires, you have to steer, do most of your braking, and all of your aceleration

at this point i dont even know what ive written below so... if you can keep it stright have fun

*inducing oversteer isnt that much harder in a front wheel drive than it is in a rwd, you just have to be more aware of the weight transitions, and be able to to think ahead farther. to drift in a fwd all you have to do is speed towards the corner, you'll prolly wanna down shift alil ahead of where you would in a rwd, lose alil speed as you slowly move towards to outside, (you'll lose alil bit of time as yoru losing speed earier, not much you were just overspeeding just a sec ago and not actaully braking till later than the rwd, still kinda on the gas jsut enough to keep the weight where you want it)...(just before the turn in)start a slow turn in/let off gas completely(just enough to shift the weight)brake(hard and fast but only enough to start the weight transition to the front, as your doing so let up just a hair on your turn in, not really but enough to bring that hair of slack between directional changes) let off the brake, as you do turn in (prolly as fast as you can), you'll feel where the car is supposed to go(get on the gas 1/3-1/2 how far you want to rotate(as you do let up on turn in, when just before/as understeer turn in a hair more and you can pretty much hold the weight of the car where it is by slight modulations of thottle and steering(generaly you'll let off the gas/turn out just a deg or so, basicly so they equal each other out, then turn back in that deg to induce more oversteer,

[fjwagner]

*new tires go on the front at this point i dont even know what ive written below so... if you can keep it stright have fun

You are right!!!! I do not think I will go out and try that tonight.