New member: my review of M35H after 2 years

Forum for Infiniti M37, M56 M35h Hybrid and Q70 owners.
belleth
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:09 am
Car: 2012 M35H

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HI everyone, I'm a new member to the board but have been following loosely for a couple of years.

As you might know, Infiniti is retiring the q70 hybrid so I figured it would be a good time to give back to the community by posting my review.

About 3 years ago I started a search for a new car. I was driving a tuned GTI at the time and really liked it, but it was time to "grow up" a bit.

my "wants" in no particular ranking were as follows:
- car with decent power
- something reliable
- large sedan
- luxury and techie
- reasonable cost within my budget
- newer/low mileage

runner ups ended up being things like E class, 5 series, GS350 and eventually Infiniti M. I will leave aside the decision process and how I ended up with the M35H (it was a way to over analyzed process) but that's the car I decided I wanted. I liked the feel of it, the comfort, the power and potential options I could get. I set on a search for fully loaded 2012/2013 M35H. it took 8 months, but i ended up with 2012 M35H with 18k miles on it, bought in July 2016.

Main things that lead me to the hybrid - power and fuel economy. Now, this is not a prius, and I wasn't expecting 30+ mpg, but since I'm at 52k miles today, that slight advantage over M37/M56 makes sense in my book, although m56 was a runner up. I got the Tech and Deluxe packages.

Things that sealed the deal:
ability to get Infiniti Elite warranty (got a great deal on it for 6 years until 108k miles) relative reliability of inifiniti in general and my likeness of the car. (18k miles on odometer was definitely a bonus :)).

gas mileage: I have been tracking my mileage since day 1. one thing I will tell you is that my onboard computer says 27.7, it is not so. my 2 year average is 26.2 and I drive 50% city 50% highway. To me this makes sense, as i did drive M37 for a couple of weeks before and my average was 18.7, I can only imagine what I would get in M56 :). I do drive a bit spirited, nothing crazy, but in the MPG department, the car is well worth it to me. In all fairness, on a long trips, cruising on a highway I would get 32+, so that is definitely a plus. When I bought the car, driving from NC to NJ, I got 33.6mpg average on that trip (per Fuelly.com). I average about 20% of mileage on electric power only.

Performance: I like it. The car definitely has it's pick up and is no slouch. if you are interested in actual numbers, please google it, but the car can be driven hard at times. The car is RWD, which is a first for me, but i see the appeal coming from a FWD car. Living in NJ - i had no problems in the 2 past winters. Just used common sense. Also the traction control is very aggressive and will keep you in line even if you try to loose the back a bit. Turned off traction control once in the rain, it was a fun drive, but won't do it again :) The car is big and heavy and drives like it, but has more than enough power to handle itself. If driving in a lot of snow is a must, just get snow tires.

Interior: Bose system is very good (was one of the wants - good sound system), very quite, great highway cruiser. I do have the seat warmer issue when the temperature differential is too large between exterior and interior, but I think this is common thing on M's in general. I like the look and quality of the interior and get many compliments.

Service/warranty: had 0 warranty claims to date. service is very reasonably priced, i.e. I was expecting MB/BMW type of rates, but nope. I do basic things myself (filters, brakes) but always take it to dealer for oil changes (FYI i do synthetic every 5k in place of conventional oil every 3750) and other fluids (differential/radiator/brake fluid). I do have an honest service advisor and he takes care of me at times so that's a plus.

abrupt transmission changes: some review sites will mention that there is an abrupt change at times when you go from electric to gas, yeah, I'd say it's true, but nothing to "really" complain about and I wouldn't worry about if you are considering the car.

I can't really think of any true "negatives" except for the small trunk, but we have an SUV as a second car, thus it's not an issue I would consider for my situation.

If any of you are considering an M in general, I think they are great cars, especially if you shop around and try to get the elite protection, even when buying the car outside of infiniti dealer (was my case). To me hybrid made total sense for the price and what I got. Do I think it's worth the premium brand new? - probably not to me, but in a used market, M's (just like 5s and E classes) take a beating and if you find a car with good history, it will be an enjoyable purchase. It was actually the reliability/maintenance costs that drove me away from 5s and E class when outside of warranty. GS350 was too new, there weren't many used ones in a similar price range, since they only came out in 2013, but I actually liked the way M drove better when compared at the time. Extended warranty took the burden of "what if" out of the equation. I'm pretty sure that engine/tranny are solid, but with all the electronics in the car... who knows. and unlike many other warranties, infiniti actually covers it (even the GPS screen).

Was I too dedicated to my search? - yes. in general, don't know many people that will spend months researching cars and many different aspects of what you want/need and then have a nationwide search going for 8 months to find a needle in a haystack, but I'm very happy with my end result. (they sold something like 1200+ cars in 2012/2013 in hybrid trim, much less with tech and deluxe package).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. If anyone has any questions about the M, especially hybrid, I will be more than happy to discuss. I know there are not many owners out there with hybrids and some information specific to hybrids is limited.


EdBwoy
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Welcome to the forum, well the posting side of things.

Thank you very much for the detailed review of it. I know there has been quite some interest expressed regarding the hybrid on the Facebook group but info and feedback from real world owners is scant.

I know "hybrid" is traditionally associated with crazy fuel economy, but it seems performance or luxo-performance vehicles are increasingly incorporating these into their lineups, and I doubt it's purely for MPGs. :poke:
Regarding gas mileage, I infer that you drive in Sport Mode most times, correct? It is unbelievable how aggressive that mode is. It keeps my M56 in 5th gear in situations where Standard Mode has me in 7th. I don't know the details of the improvement we'd expect to see, but I bet there's something to be gained if you so desire.
We had a member that shared his calculators in this thread.


All in all, I think the M35h is very underrated. The ideal sport model for people that want M56 performance but can't find an M56 sport. On paper, it delivers almost-M56 performance with a better appetite for fuel.
"Ideal" is a gross overstatement. If finding an M56 is rare, a M35h is beyond rare. Let alone a fully loaded one.
I am the guy who wants my car, with ALL the available features at MY price, so shopping for months isn't strange at all to me.
Congratulations.



belleth wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:50 am
... I will leave aside the decision process and how I ended up with the M35H (it was a way to over analyzed process) but that's the car I decided I wanted...
Will you share this some day? Even if it's done privately. I am usually curious about the workings behind the scenes that drive critical decisions.

belleth
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:09 am
Car: 2012 M35H

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in regards to the sport/normal/eco.

I will quote some review article "infiniti takes eco mode seriously" - very true. I'm 95% in normal mode nowadays. rarely put it in sport and don't use eco at all. I spent maybe 2 months driving in eco, and i strongly encourage it. It really taught me the "sweet spots" of car behavior. I admit it is a weird feeling when the gas pedal is fighting back but the drive becomes mellow and restrained. After returning back to normal i realized i drive the car softer, and really know when to push it if needs to be. i can't really say that i saw a drastic gas mileage difference in eco vs normal, and just don't use it anymore. Sport mode is fun, but not needed 99% of the time, unless you want to "play". Totally agree with 7th vs 5th gear :) and if on a highway, and need an extra quick push, I just drop it in manual, since it defaults to 5th, but that's rare. That's my take on the whole eco/normal/sport. Sport really opens it up via higher shifting points, but foremost, to me it's a comfortable cruiser.

Decisions, decisions, decisions.

so here is a summary of how I arrived to M. I knew that for my next car i wanted a "boat", i.e. i wanted a large sedan. Given that I was not considering new cars and wanted a luxury one, the choice is somewhat limited. cars considered: A6, 5 series, gs350, E-class, Jag XJ, M37/56. At this point I started looking at review articles comparing the cars. Honestly, XJ dropped off pretty quickly due to history of the brand and relative perception of reliability. NOTE: Any statements I make in regards to reliability, maintenance, etc. are my personal opinions or experiences. I know people that owned XJs and were extremely happy, but for my decision making on the cars, it was my perception of the brands and conclusions I made based on reviews etc.

Back to the search. A6, 5 series, GS350 and M. I started looking in 2015, based on that year I wanted a "newer" body style, which pushed the A6 to 2012+ and GS350 2013+. I don't remember much about BWM and E class in regards to what the situation was with refreshes so no comment here. There are quite a few articles comparing luxury cars of that class, and they were very helpful. Also the usnews car reviews were great, looked at consumer reports as well. Between the 5 cars, I don't think there is a "bad" choice. From a reliability perspective, I think Japs will lead, but I don't think any of them are awful. If anything A6 is very highly ranked in many tests that compare 2012/2013 models.

Going back to my wants: I knew the style of car, now come the options. I wanted everything I could get in all of them. The issue I found (BMW is prime example) is that things come a la carte, and it's pain to siphon through all the listings to find what you want. To give you an example, I knew I wanted an upgraded sound system, 4/5 brands make it an option in any trim, with Infiniti, it's part of the package, makes is simple to search:). I knew I wanted sportier seats, similar situation, and that's the big things, left aside are things like lane departure etc.

I think it's easier to move forward if I talk about each car.

E-class: drove it, liked it, nothing to cry home about. It was a comfortable drive, E350 was smooth and decent power but that was it to me. I had no hesitations in regards to reliability, to me maintenance was the issue. My mother owned an MB, each trip to the dealer was "fun" with their "scheduled A, B, C, D" services. As I do like to bring my car to a dealer for minor things (oil changes mostly), long term costs would've been higher IMHO. Knowing that it's a MB, if anything breaks, it will be expensive as well. So really, the combination of bored drive and potential long term costs, kinda removed it from the run-in. E550 would've been my choice though - but there goes MPGs :)

5-Series: LOVED IT. I'll be honest with you, I loved the way 5 Series felt - like a tank. In all fairness, 528 was underpowered for me, 535 was nice. The drive felt exactly what I wanted, drove the 550 once and it was a monster :). Now the complications. We are still dealing with a car that is high maintenance. BMW makes performance sedans, you want it to perform - maintain it!!! It's true about any car, but I find it with BMWs to be a must. And there are things that you should do on those cars regularly that you wouldn't do to a camry, even the service manual call for those items to be replaced. I can't say that it scared me though, it's worth it. The thing that made it a pain are all the "options" I did not want the basic seats, contour seats are amazing... but good luck looking for one, another needle in a haystack, also the price. By the time you find it, you are 10k over the regular price of a "basic" 5. I did seriously consider 535 diesel, but it was too new (i think it came out in 2013).

A6: my dad had/has 2013. Have a lot of experience with that car. the 3.0 is an amazing engine (and easily tunable :):)) Finding a Prestige with B&O sound system wasn't too much of a chore, it was the seats. The basic seats in an A6 are ok, I would've been searching for the one with sport seats option. Dad had a few quirks with the car, nothing major, few things done under warranty, but mostly because my dad had one, I wanted something different, even though it pretty much tops the performance aspect when we are talking about 6 cylinder versions of cars in question. Did look at an S4 manual, great car, but with all the bells and whistles was in high 30s/low 40s due to a refresh years I was looking at. Financially it didn't make sense to me. With more choices, read lesser price, might've been the one, although on a smaller size.

GS350: drove the gas and hybrid versions. Hybrid has the CVT, and since my wife already had an RX450h, was used to the feeling, but just doesn't "feel" fast. Could've easily gone with a gas only, stellar reliability history the issue was the year. 2013 was the new model year, hybrids were impossible to find and regular GS, most where basic and only a few out there due to "age" of the model, driving the price a bit up due to limited supply. Only rarely did I see mark levinson sound system.

This brings us to M: I actually never drove the hybrid nor considered it, only the M37 and M56. To me M56 was a tad front heavy. M37 is totally fine power wise (not an A6 though :)). M35h came into the picture because of how highly ranked it was by usnews reports. It was really the web research that lead me to this as an option. I'm pretty sure I didn't know they even existed, and let's be honest, "Guinness record holder" (although already dethroned by q50 hybrid) grabs your attention doesn't it? I found a q50 hybrid and that car was FUN. I knew it was faster, lighter and smaller then M35h, so M35h looked like a decent choice that I should consider. Q50 hybrid did have a "weird" disconnected feeling in the steering wheel (electric steering i believe). Nothing to really complain about, but need to get used to it.

I found out about m35h only through searching for cars in it's class. I was intrigued by "performance" hybrid vs a conventional one. I started looking at other hybrids and heavily ended up comparing m35h and gs450h. This is where it gets interesting. Things like "best used car sound systems" highlight the M (the bose). Things like "aftermarket warranty" brought infiniti to the top as well.

Warranty: 3 local dealers would not budge from a list price of 3k+ for the Elite protection with 100$ deductible. Through Infiniti forums found out about another dealer that will work with you via email, couple of emails and i had quotes of 2100 for cars under 20k and something like 2300 for cars under 30k mileage.

Through out the search I had excel spreadsheets setup for "cost of gas" and initial investment. basically I priced out all the cars on average, added expected MPG vs miles driven and cost of gas at different time points (3-6 years). Looked at some basic maintenance costs, but not in depth.

At the end of it, I was between 2 cars: GS450h and M35h. Both pretty rare, but M35h was topping the list. Aside from the fact that initial cost was lower, I had 2012/2013 to pick from (wanted to stay away from 2011) vs only 2013 for GS, I had an opportunity to buy the Elite protection no matter where I bought the car, and I still to this day like the body lines on it. What lexus had going for it, was newer tech (i.e. GPS, interior looked more modern), but M is good too. I guess percieved reliability was on par to me, maybe Lexus was higher. As far as maintnance costs, I'm actually pleasantly surprised that lexus is fair (given wife's RX450h)

I put a nationwide search via cargurus, became an expert of how to figure out from pictures if the car has tech and deluxe packages :), and ~6 months later had the car. There was one close call at month 2 (white on white 2013) but the dealer wanted a bit much for it (in my book). Ended up finding the car in Charlotte NC at a "big box" dealer, had it transferred to Raleigh and flew down to get it. Note: that was the first time I actually drove the M35h :) Before I flew down, I was able to get history of the car from a local dealer, I knew the car sat in a showroom for 2-3 years and had only 3k miles on it before somebody bought it in Arizona (might have the wrong state, it's been too long). That person had it for 1-2 years (can't remember) and the car had 18900 miles when I got it. For whatever reason the hybrid battery was replaced at 2k miles as well as 12V battery. I attribute it to the car sitting in the showroom. But that's it as far as repairs go. I think there was 1 recall for something since I had it. I had to replace a tire sensor, but that's because the selling dealer broke it when replacing tires and duct taped it to the rim...

Regrets: about the car - none. Just a note about car seraches... When I was looking at the car in Raleigh, they had a Panamera hybrid parked right next to it. I've never considered a Porsche, thinking it was price prohibitive, however, what they wanted for it was not "a lot more" and the car had 40k miles on it. I guess I wasn't too diligent on comparable hybrids. Have I known that I could find a Panamera in mid 30s, I might've considered it:) but that would require a whole new set of research to compare Panamera vs M35h :) Which at the time, and possibly today, M35h would've still won.

I had the luxury of time to do this, I didn't "need" a car, I just wanted a car, the GTI I had at the time had 80k miles on it and was in spectacular condition.

Thanks for your interest in my crazy search.

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Dicemoney6
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Car: 1990 Infiniti Q45 *sold*
2003 Infiniti M45 *Sold*
2012 Infiniti M56

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I finally got my M56s that I have wanted for a while. After initially getting around 18 or 19 mpg, everytime I reset mt mpg it is always at around 16 mpg. I dont drive it hard, because of that I have been looking into selling my M56s and getting a M35h. As far as the performance goes, I keep reading that its comparable. So it is just as fast as the 56? Wanna know what kind of loss in power I will be taking and if I will even really notice it? And as far as your concern with the Panamera hybrid vs the M Hybrid, you must have never seen this video lol....
https://youtu.be/IVrvYuP7D-Y

belleth
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Car: 2012 M35H

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Dicemoney6 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:13 pm
I finally got my M56s that I have wanted for a while. After initially getting around 18 or 19 mpg, everytime I reset mt mpg it is always at around 16 mpg. I dont drive it hard, because of that I have been looking into selling my M56s and getting a M35h. As far as the performance goes, I keep reading that its comparable. So it is just as fast as the 56? Wanna know what kind of loss in power I will be taking and if I will even really notice it? And as far as your concern with the Panamera hybrid vs the M Hybrid, you must have never seen this video lol....
https://youtu.be/IVrvYuP7D-Y
Thanks for the video. Haven't seen it before, but also never considered the Panamera in the initial search.

As far as your dilemma:
1) I didn't drive M56 and M35h back to back, so can't give you a true objective measure. I do remember M56 felt front heavy, while M35h actually has almost perfect weight distribution between front and back :). I would say that performance difference is minor in day to day operations. M35h is supposed to be faster till 35MPH and looses a fraction of a second 0-60, so I would say you will be happy with it. How often do we actually hit the top end on our cars? I don't think you should be too concerned with it.

2) Do you need the trunk space? this could be a deal breaker for some. the M35h trunk is small.

3) not sure if your current M56 is awd, but m35h is RWD, not sure if that is a deal breaker. I'm in NJ and have no hesitations with it.

4) Probably the most important point - perceived savings at the pump. If you are interested in details of calculations, you can let me know, but basically it goes as follows: assuming 16MPG in M56 (your number) and 26MPG in M35h (my current 2 year average), you will save close to a $1000 dollars at the pump every 10000 miles you drive (i used $4 per gallon as an assumption). So, how long are you planning on driving the car? if you plan on keeping the car for 60k miles, you will end up saving close to 6 grand, but how long will it take you to get there? on average people drive 12k miles per year, so that is savings of 6 grand over the 5 year period. You should consider the "cost" of switching. Without knowing what you paid for your car and how much an M35h will cost you it is hard to judge. Basically if it's an event swap, it's a no brainer (money wise), however, if you bought the car for $20000, now will only get $14000 for it and M35h will cost you $22000, you are out 8 grand in the swap, which means at $4 per gallon you could drive your M56 for 80k miles and it will be a wash. To each is own, and maybe M35h will have less miles, newer year, better condition etc. these things should be considered as well if you are planning a swap. Unfortunately cars are depreciating assets and you almost always loose (collector cars aside).

Overall, I think if you will make the switch because it makes sense in your situation, you will not regret it, just have to look at pros and cons.

as a side note, since you are looking at a used one. make sure to test the 12V battery in the M35h, dealer wanted $700+ for one and had to be special ordered. Mine ended up being fine and i'm still driving with it, but keep that in mind. There are a couple of aftermarket options around $300.

satown210
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I had a very similar shopping story.

I haven't ever really had a nicer luxury car. I am 32 but a fan of luxo barges. I have my 4x4 Xterra for camping, towing and other needs. I had a 2001 Infiniti i30 that I got dirt cheap and loved. It was comfortable and had decent performance. Around 200K I got rid of it. Decided I wanted something a little more sporty but still nice. I got a 2009 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L with the V6 and 6-Speed manual. I had to search to find one. Owned it about a year and quickly grew tired of it. Honda apparently was trying to save money during those years as others were going bankrupt. The car was missing courtesy lights on the doors, adjustable seatbelts, electric trunk release, you got that crappy looking 1980s lever next to the seat. Stuff Honda used to put on the cars but didn't. This generation interior was clearly inferior to the 7th gen. 7th gen has better seats, gauges, and fit / finish. The car roared on the road. Tried 3 different sets of tires. 50K driver blend door broke. Power seat broke, blower motor was noisy, passenger blend door broke......then at 70k it started consuming about a quart of oil every 4000 miles. It had to go.

I looked at:

E350. Nice interior. But everything else felt "okay.' The performance, ok, the stereo ok, comfort, ok.

Bmw 3 & 5 Series. What boring cars. Great steering, but transmissions that reluctantly downshift, and everything else was so bland. The rest of the car from the engine to the interior was a cure for insomnia.

I decided for myself the only reason to own those specific cars was just for the satisfaction of saying I drive a Mercedes or a BMW. Not enough for me to want to pay the repair and maintenance costs.

I won't consider Audi, blast to drive but I've worked on way too many. Engineering is there but the quality isn't.

Lexus: The lineup is clearly geared towards older people. Seats that are super soft but not supportive. Large buttons and knobs. Very simplistic interiors. Very soothing but boring. ES blah. LS too expensive, GS can't find them used anywhere.

I was looking for a G37, went and it was out on a test drive, sales lady was confused anyways and brought up an M37 that wasn't on sale sheet yet. Drove it, liked it, and flipped off my Honda and handed them the keys to it.
I have everything but the Tech package.

Wish I did more homework and knew more about the M35H. I assumed the hybrid version of the M was the slower ECO, save the crippled lizards of the world version. I later saw 0-60 runs in the M35H.....damn. V8 power with better MPG. I can't quite break 21MPG. I sit at 20.6-20.8. Pretty poor in my opinion but it does drive nice....

EdBwoy
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Ok, very admirable process. Thanks for sharing guys.

I also keep a spreadsheet for a lot of things in my life. I guess it baffled people why I kept my Jag XJ8 as long as I did. Even with premium gas, none of my other cars came as close to the true cost of fuel. 30mpg from a luxury V8 is still impressive even in 2018. Disregarding the other subjective aspects of vehicle ownership, it made so much financial sense to keep it.

I try to keep at least one spare, functional and ready car at all times. And I also switch cars a lot... Which means I am always looking around for interesting cars but I am rarely in a rush.
I have driven and or sat in a lot of nice cars, but I am always drawn to big sedans with matching powerplants. I stick with Infiniti because for the longest time Nissan provided the best bang for the buck in the used car market (reliability + performance + technology) for the respective market prices.

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Dicemoney6
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Do you guys think its worth it to get a m35h with 129k. Not sure how the reliability would be on the hybrids with higher miles but I see one for a lower price. Just checking to see if you guys think its worth or if the miles are to high

DKASM37
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Dicemoney6 wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:09 am
Do you guys think its worth it to get a m35h with 129k. Not sure how the reliability would be on the hybrids with higher miles but I see one for a lower price. Just checking to see if you guys think its worth or if the miles are to high
I personally wouldn’t go near one with 129k miles on it. From what I understand, the hybrid batteries & components aren’t cheap... My 2018 has a 10 year or 100k warranty on all hybrid components. Without a warranty like that I probably wouldn’t have bought mine and just went the 5.6 route instead.

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Dicemoney6
Posts: 59
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Car: 1990 Infiniti Q45 *sold*
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2012 Infiniti M56

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    DKASM37 wrote:
    Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:51 am
    Dicemoney6 wrote:
    Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:09 am
    Do you guys think its worth it to get a m35h with 129k. Not sure how the reliability would be on the hybrids with higher miles but I see one for a lower price. Just checking to see if you guys think its worth or if the miles are to high
    I personally wouldn’t go near one with 129k miles on it. From what I understand, the hybrid batteries & components aren’t cheap... My 2018 has a 10 year or 100k warranty on all hybrid components. Without a warranty like that I probably wouldn’t have bought mine and just went the 5.6 route instead.
    Ok cool, thanks for the feedback. Is there anything other than battery that could possibly be costly that is different from the gas versions?

    satown210
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    Well the big deal to me is the electric motor. The battery would not scare me. Batteries have a pretty well known life expectancy. Any good mechanic can replace a hybrid battery and there are businesses everywhere that can rebuild and rebalance a battery. The electric motor on the other hand is embedded into the drivetrain. A motor fault can cripple the car. I looked at a hybrid silverado, but did not like that the Silverado did not have a starter. It used the electric motor to turn the engine over. The hybrid silverado was a very limited run. I keep my vehicles to the 200k point. Didn't like the idea of having something rare and expensive and out of warranty.

    vamar75
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    Car: 2013 Infiniti M35H

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    Hi Guys,

    I am also in the process of buying Infiniti M35H but honestly speaking I am afraid of maintaining costs I might have.
    I am based in Romania and here we do not have Infiniti dealer.The car I saw is almost 100k km and made in 2013.
    Car is at a privat owner in Germany and I love it but once again I am afraid of the cost it might pop up soon with the hybrid battery.
    Do anyone know how much it will take for a replacement of the hybrid?
    Do you think that a car like this can be maintained in a country based in Europe where Infiniti is not present?
    Thank you all for your advices!


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