Negative Camber

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Ok I got my alignmnet yetserday and I went along my merry way and I noticed itmstill pulled to the right. So i brought it back to the shop and they put it back on the rack and tried to figure out what was wrong seems the drivers side is -2 degress of camber. I know this is not adjustable, but what would most likely cause this? Does this sound like bent upper links? This side has always worn the inside edge of tires now I know why.

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

The Camber spec is negative 0.7 degrees maximum [design center] and equal [within 0.2 degrees side to side].Worn upper links usually produce an extra 0.5-0.6 degrees if not changed every 30-40,000 miles, you probably have a bent THIRD LINK which connects the upper link to the KINGPIN and HUB.

Pretty common with a curb hit or accident.Actually the upper link is stronger [except for rubber bushings] than many components so a hit force just bends something else....a really good smack can bend the shock tower inward an 1/8-1/3"............a 2 degree minus 0.7 or 1.3 degree excessive is about 0.30" too much inward .

Start with a new upper link then measure the camber and decide which structure you are going to replace [bend , shim ]!

Pretty normal to replace the traverse link, third link, upper link and the rest of components on high mileage Q.

When you get everything EXACTLY in the middle od spec the car will drive quite different.As even 0.3 camber difference is enough to make the car lead to one side......precision alignment and precision parts replacement is the name of the game.

Excessive camber places excessive stress on the wheel bearing and increases your stopping distance since the contact patch is not rectangular but trapezoid.

http://www.truckalign.com.au/History/hist12.html

The one thing you have to decide is what to do about road camber since the alignment machine is flat and different lanes are tapered in different ways. Also always put your eqivalent weight in the drivers seat during the alignment so it will at least give you pleasure when you are alone in the car!

Post by **Professor_Mike** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

There are update tension rods available to compensate for drift to right providing everything is in spec.

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Well I got me a new upper link and a third link gonna put them on tonight and see how that pans out. If my camber goes back into spec then Ill be toe out right?

Post by **maxnix** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

PM, is there a change in part no. or a particular service bulletin that references this update? When did it occur?

I ask because I have a very gentle drift to the right when aligned and steering rack adjusted. 34K on a 1995 Q45t with new upper links, so we can't figure why it has this tendency.

Seems like the Q front end likes to follow any crown for sure.

Brian

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

What adjustment can be done to the rack? and can the DIY do it or is this easier for the dealer?

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Well I just replaced the upper link and the 3rd link and it still leans alot and pulls to the right but not as badly. What else can I do? Should I get a new transverse link? would that cause nagative camber?

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Draw the suspension to visualize, anything that is not within 1/32". The traverse arm usually get compressed inward moving the camber more positive, you would need to examine the bushing deflection direction to be sureIf you have replaced the upper link and the third link then you have to examine the strut tower and measure the ride height [for a sagged spring].....the shock upper rubber doughnut and gas charge are minor usually increasing camber 0.2 degrees at most.A 1" front lowering will increase negative camber 0.8 degrees!

An old time alignment specialist will figure something out if it means tweaking the tower with a ram [usually a few shims are all that needed.

What is the current camber [with you sitting in drivers seat] after all the new parts?

It took me 5 alignments to get mine perfect [-0.7 both sides] changing a piece at a time then I had 1/4" shims under the drivers side upper link mount. Then I lowered the springs and it has stayed [-1.5 +-0.1] for the past 3 years [of course new upper links are needed every 30k] but those returns it to normal each time.

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Ok Ill give it a try ill goto the alignment shop today and see how much its still off. Everyhting is brand new except for the spring and the lower link and tension rod. I was thinking shims too Ill just have to find someone to help me out here in denver. I was considering the adjustable links from stillen. What if they sent me parts for a active car would that make a difference I thought all that stuff was the same.

I might as well just order a new spring, but i wouold have to order both because one would ride a little higher do to the other being old right?

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

It takes 10 minutes to install shims between the 4 bolts and the rear upper link mount with the wheel off and upper link off.Measure the amount of exposed thread sticking out from each of 4 nuts, that tells you the maximum shim thickness possible all around. Start with something like 0.2 " [reduces by 0.8 degrees] as you are pretty close at 2 degrees.

Generally speaking 1/8" [0.125"] shimming equals 0.5 degrees

I'm telling you a 50-60 ish alignment tech can touch the car blindfolded and guess the right shim thickness but you must know exactly how much you want to correct....simple trig.

The factory SPECIAL caster rod [tension rod] is designed to equialize the Caster not the Camber.http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf20044.htm

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

I just got back from the shop (not a alignment shop just a shop with a machine) and now Im -2.8 ( they would not let me sit in the car) is my upper link bad, even though its brand new. When I get home Im gonna swap in my old one and see what that changes and/ or look for some shims. Im gonna have to get the level and the ol protractor and do it my self since Im having such a hard time. arg!

I just checked part numbers and they are all the same from 90-96 for all models so that cant be the problem.

They think its the steering knuckle should i get my old one repressed and try that too?

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

What do you mean they wouldn't let you sit in your car, you are obviously using an ignorant alignment shop who doesn't understand what they are doing! If they don't know your weight will change the camber up to 0.4 degrees! Hopefully you abused them verbally in front of all the other customers

2.8 degrees is more than you can shim [2.8-0.7= 2.1 or a little more than 1/2" worth, the bolts are not long enough to fully lock the nuts.

Find a frame shop [ask a body shop for a recommendation] section BF 157 [service manual] shows that the distance between the shock tower bolts side to side is 1,085 and 1,089 mm - have all the dozen critical measurements checked. They have special lasers and adjustable rods for this work .Fairly common or the factory wouldn't have supplied all the 1,000 of numbers to rebuild the frame and body

Then they can reweld the shock tower correctly or just bend it back into place.

Somebody had a wreck and didn't fix it properly!

Post by **maxnix** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Oohhh! I'm glad Q45tech endorses spontaneous verbal feedback for poorly or ignorantly performed services.

My last occasion was at the post office yesterday.

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Yeah I told them that and they looked at me funny, like how does this kid know what he is talking about. I have a appointment on tuesday with a frame shop to check everyhting for me (they are a very reputable shop in denver). The shop was mad at me anyways guess I was useing thier time to much I told him i would pay for the time for my car to be on the machine I just need the specs!!!! The the guy tried to tell me there is no shims availble and that he thinks its the steering knuckle.

I am still gonna try my old upper link and see, but I guess we will really find out whats wrong after tuesday.

on my service history at about 70k 1999 they had they same proble and just replaced everyhting and I guess they thought it was fixed hopefully its just a bent shock tower.

I was also noticing on my sheet that my caster is alos out of spec its 4.6 degrees for both wheels. SAI is 9.3 on the right and 5.5 on the left. included angel is 2.6 on the left and 8.5 on the right. I know what caster is what is all these other ones that are out of spec. Should I take the car to a different place and have it checked there?

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Ok I just replaced the upper link and it seemed to have helped with my camber I bet i am back to -2 but I do not know because I dont have a alignment rack at my house, but it seems to ride better and I dont need as much force to keep the car straight so hopefully tomarrow ill be able to get the car on the rack for somemore info and see if im right.

So maybe Im getting closer maybe i had a bad upper link or I got sent a used one.

Post by **rod_ontario** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

I applaud you for your tenacity DenverQ!What was the resolution to your bearing problem?(Some interesting reading in this thread.)

Rod

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Thanks Im just determined to get this car to the way it should be. And its kinda hard because Denver doesnt have many good shops so I have to use this club and play it by ear. Now if i only had a reason togo to atlanta I would be set and it would be fun to see how much HP and how fun it is to drive at sea level. :ylsuper

about the bearing well Im pretty sure the shop pressed it backwards so I went out and found a junk Q and took the whole steering knuckle from it and I am going back to the machine shop showing them the scematic and demanding my money back, if that doesnt work Ill just dispute it with Visa (credit cards are great!!!)

Post by **Chally** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Just a question, are the tyres worn?

We have had problems where the tyres were worn & even though the alignment was perfect, it would still pull to one side.

The way we figured if this was causing the problem, was by swapping the front tyres from side to side & taking it for a run. If it ran straight, then the problem was in the tyres.

Tyres will wear to the alignment & when it's changed, the tyres may be running on the ridge, so to speek.

I know it's Not correct practice, and it won't hurt anything for the test drive, but it shows up the problem & may lead to purchase of a couple of new tyres.

Post by **Professor_Mike** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Maxnix, I will get the tension rod #s.

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Thanks for the suggestion Chally but I already tried that. The tired are brand new. The alignment guys thaught that was the case but I had to argue with them to put it back on the rack. Thats when we discovered the -2 camber

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Before you buy a car you MUST have the aligment checked, even on adjustable front ends the adjustments may be bottomed out to try to get it close in an accident repair. You must make sure everything is in the middle of the factory range.

Body shops just make it look good to the average unknowlegable owner. You need documentation [every 6 months] so you can fight with your insurance company to get it returned to before the accident!

Frame shops take total loss cars and bend them back to close, an unsellable car can be brought back [and its value tripled] and the title laundered by flipping thru a few states!

I'll bet there are half dozen shops in Denver that deal with the trade not necessarily the public.....these experts are the ones you want to use. What about shops that build race cars.

Find a old man single alignment shop with beat up old equipment!The dirtier the better you have to watch out for flashy new production shops!

The Q suspension is very simple!

Post by **OLU40** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

You think you had problems, check out my ongoing saga in Alignment/Problems.

Post by **Chally** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Quote »Find a old man single alignment shop with beat up old equipment! The dirtier the better you have to watch out for flashy new production shops![/quote]Funny you should say that, we used to have an old Hunter Light aligner, & we were considered the best place to come to for alignments, above the guys who had the latest gizmos. We NEVER had any probs with tyres wearing.

I'm always arguing with the blokes with the latest machines, as they never check the Runout of the front rims etc & try & tell me that the macine does it automatically. (yeah right, the machine is so smart that it can tell if you have a bent rim without giving the wheel a spin???)

Good luck DenverQ :ylsuper

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

OK I just got back from the frame shopand my shock tower is bent in slightly 1.5 degrees they are gonna fix it for 178 and that includes a 4 wheel alignment. yes Dennis the place was dirty and they were about 50 years old so i think they should do a sweet job. Ill keep you all posted to what happens and hopefully ill be in spec and the car will handle and ride much better. They said it needs the crossmember slotted what does that mean?

PS what besides tire balance would cause steering wheel vibration at highway speeds?

Post by **DAEDALUS** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

It sounds like they're going to machine in some adjustability into the crossmember by slotting the fastener holes. They'll slot the holes in line with the direction of the adjustability required. I'm not sure why they need adjustability if they're going to straighten the frame, but it sounds like they know what they're doing. I hope this will be the end to your alignment nightmare.

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

I not sure I like their solution, they are proposing to move the bottom out vs moving the top out. The slotting can slip vs a just right round hole.Have then shim the top as much as possible [0.5-0.7 degrees] then the lower slot can be smaller! The caster and SAI will change with their method as will the toe since that side is now [0.3-0.6" longer].

But for $178 you won't find anyone to unweld and reposition the shock tower {$~~~500 or so}

The Stillen adjustable upper links have a +- 4.0 degree range....the correct mid priced way to correct problems beyond the ability of shims....... With of course increased harshness from the urethane vs rubber bushings.

Glad I was correct but after seeing hundreds of bent ones it's easy.

One of the reasons the 97 and up Q have a front/rear strut tower brace is to strengthen the shock towers...they know they are using metal that is too thin [like all cars].

A strut tower brace might protect [by opposing the force better] than just thicker metal.

Give the old guy an Excellant bottle of whiskey and discuss the solutions before you settle on the slotting!

"besides tire balance would cause steering wheel vibration at highway speeds" Does the vibration increase with speeds 65,70,75,80 mph or is it worse 63-73 mph? Does it show up again at 125-135 mph How is it at 150-155 [just kidding]

Tires with more than 5-7 pounds of radial force [out of round won't really show on a normal balancer]!.............bent wheels, warped rotors, warped hubs, locking lug nuts that weigh enough [10 grams more than the other 4 standard lug nuts].Sloppy bushings worn enough to let vibrations build and not be damped!.......loose /worn pinion in rack...improper load force adjustment.

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

I was looking at the work sheet the tech filled out and noticed that the toe is .5 doesnt say - or + and that camber is 1.5 for left and 1 for right. Im thinking of getting some shims (where do you get shims) what about washers? and shim the .7 off the left and I should be in spec right? I would need a .2 in shim /washer for that right? and should I do anyhting with the right side? I was thinking shim it myself then get the alignment for 48.75. Save some $$$ dont mess up anyhting what you guys think?

Just talked to the shop and they said that theyre gonna slot the strut bolt holes to move the top of the strut out to bring it into spec. Is this the same thing your talking about dennis?

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

THAT is even more stupid and dangerous as they are showing too much ignorance of the upper link design .....slotting the struts only works with McPearson strut designs won't do a thing as the upper link control the camber!

I have seen too many slots on Q where hacks tried and failed to fix the caster and camber.If it's bent you replace it or rebend it back into the correct position NO slotting PLEASE! It weakens the already marginal metal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The extra threads on the 4 upper link rear mount are there to allow a small amount of fine triming [SHIMS-WASHERS] if the metal work was off before it leaves the factory.

Before you select the shim thickness bone up on your trig.25.5" [side bisected at the hub] with a 89.3 degree angle, 0.7 degree angle but with 2.5 camber [87.5 and 2.5]........remember the traverse arm bisects the middle of the 25.5" .

0.181508344408888531084848040058081" is the correct shim thickness for 0.8 degree correction.....sine of angle [0.0139621803391452716219113876967755] times 13"

Post by **DenverQ** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

Yeah it sounded fishy to me. They must think its regular strut setup. Guess Im off to find a more competant shop Unless I can shim it myself. The place I took it too now said its only -1.5 since i switched stuff around so -.7 so i would still be out by .1 right?

The Firestone next to my house has a lifetime alignment for 129 so Ill just have to experiment myself and then keep getting alignments till its right. or i could do it myselfhttp://www.pelicanparts.com/te...n.htm

Thanks alot for your help Dennis!!!!

Now the other question is do I call the shop and try to argue with them or just leave it alone

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:17 am

If you are going to the trouble make it PERFECT, in fact I would set it to negative 0.5 degrees so it gets more perfect after a few thousand miles........neg. 1.4 is the upper maximum negative camber 0.700000000000000000000000000000000 is the desired but then again that was for the oem tires. So less robust tires might need more but as we know they can't stand it without destroying their inner edge.

So trade off 0.5 mph in the slalom [1.4 degrees] for an improved 4-6 feet stopping distance with 0.5 to 0.7 negative and allow the tires to not get hernias and hemorages.

Negative Camber

Negative Camber

New stuff

Updated tension rods

Steering Rack adjustment

Aw man

Double Bummer

Instant Verbal Ratings

U better believe it

Interesting

Thanks

Finally

interesting note

Very Interesting

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