On Sunday, during the Phoenix All-Nissan Meet, I was fortunate enough to meet a gentleman with a Consult II who was eager to conduct some tests and show its capabilities. I readily volunteered my car, and spent a couple hours learning how the Consult works and what it can do.
Here are the results:
POWERBALANCE DIAG RESULT:1) 231 rpm2) 1523) 1424) 1195) 856) 987) 948) 89
CMPS - RPM (POS) 1329 rpmCOOLANT TEMP 183F (was running for 30 minutes)
DATA MONITOR:MONITOR - NO DTCCMPS-RPM(POS) 975rpmMAS AIR/FL SE 1.29vCOOLANT TEMP 183FO2 Sensor (1) 0.03vO2 Sensor (B2) 0.05vnote: O2 sensor voltage did NOT fluctuate during running test - I assume this means they need replacing(?)M/R F/C MNT - leanM/R F/C MTN-R - leanA/F ALPHA R - 110%A/F ALPHA - 107%
TPS - 0.38VSTARTSIGNAL - OFFCLSD THL POS - ONA/C SIG - OFFP/N POSI SW - ONPW/ST SIGNAL - OFFINJ PULSE - 2.1 msecIGN TIMING - 10BTDCIACV - AAC/V - 10%
My biggest concerns (given my limited knowledge) are the timing (10 BTDC, what the heck is that all about?) and the powerbalance results (more injectr problems?). Anything else I should be concerned with here? Any and all advice is appreciated. I want to be well-informed when I take it to the dealer.
Thanks guys!
Need help with diagnostic results...
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
POWERBALANCE DIAG RESULT:1) 231 rpm2) 1523) 1424) 1195) 856) 987) 948) 89
CMPS - RPM (POS) 1329 rpm
A 146 rpm variance is significant, in that one would expect none or 12-25 rpm at most, BUT you often need to do the test 2-3 times to let things settle down or AVERAGE the result.
As to TPS 0.44 VDC at idle and more than 4.0 volts wot [4.4 ideally] is perfect....... 21 steps from idle to WOT resolves into the ecu reading throttle position within 5%.
The ignition timing is a calculated value not a real value. In that the ecu assumes the CAS is set at 15 degrees and adjust the number accordingly..........idle speed seems a little too high [975?]........must set the CAS [with a timing light at 675 rpm to 15] and check again.
What one wants to do with a Consult is Data log all the [important] parameters when running from 3500 to 7,000 rpm WOT IN FIRST GEAR. Then graph each 1/100 of a second [or rpms in 250 rpm increments] against inj pulse, timing, and MAF voltage.............to see how well things are at WOT and real load.............idle doesn't show you much.
A MAF graph vs rpm can tell you torque or HP within 5-8% if the power balance is close to perfect and you know the injested air temperature and you see the ignition advance curve at 4,000>6,000>7,000.
X amount of air with y amount of fuel, starting the burn z degrees before TDBC.................obviously worn rings or low compression will degrade the power but not as much as you think. As long as you are not blowing blue smoke [aka "low oil consumption in 3,000 miles"].
CMPS - RPM (POS) 1329 rpm
A 146 rpm variance is significant, in that one would expect none or 12-25 rpm at most, BUT you often need to do the test 2-3 times to let things settle down or AVERAGE the result.
As to TPS 0.44 VDC at idle and more than 4.0 volts wot [4.4 ideally] is perfect....... 21 steps from idle to WOT resolves into the ecu reading throttle position within 5%.
The ignition timing is a calculated value not a real value. In that the ecu assumes the CAS is set at 15 degrees and adjust the number accordingly..........idle speed seems a little too high [975?]........must set the CAS [with a timing light at 675 rpm to 15] and check again.
What one wants to do with a Consult is Data log all the [important] parameters when running from 3500 to 7,000 rpm WOT IN FIRST GEAR. Then graph each 1/100 of a second [or rpms in 250 rpm increments] against inj pulse, timing, and MAF voltage.............to see how well things are at WOT and real load.............idle doesn't show you much.
A MAF graph vs rpm can tell you torque or HP within 5-8% if the power balance is close to perfect and you know the injested air temperature and you see the ignition advance curve at 4,000>6,000>7,000.
X amount of air with y amount of fuel, starting the burn z degrees before TDBC.................obviously worn rings or low compression will degrade the power but not as much as you think. As long as you are not blowing blue smoke [aka "low oil consumption in 3,000 miles"].
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AZhitman
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Dennis - Are the WOT and loaded tests something that can be done through the Consult II or is there a need for a chassis dyno and a steady foot on the throttle?
BTW, the powerbalance tst was done 3x and the resuts were all VERY similar to what I posted. Is this indicative of an injector problem or something else? New plugs were installed less than 10K ago.
Sorry for my ignorance, but where does the 975 rpm idle speed come from? I'll have the timing re-set and new readings taken.
As always, thanks for your wisdom. BTW, I bought a service manual (1991) and am about 1/4 of the way into it. I'm reading thoroughly and taking notes - I have a newfound respect for those who operate within this realm daily.
BTW, the powerbalance tst was done 3x and the resuts were all VERY similar to what I posted. Is this indicative of an injector problem or something else? New plugs were installed less than 10K ago.
Sorry for my ignorance, but where does the 975 rpm idle speed come from? I'll have the timing re-set and new readings taken.
As always, thanks for your wisdom. BTW, I bought a service manual (1991) and am about 1/4 of the way into it. I'm reading thoroughly and taking notes - I have a newfound respect for those who operate within this realm daily.
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
The Consult has a 3 second memory which can be set up to monitor 4-6 parameters continuously so you set things up and floor the car, then when you hit 3000-3500 rpm [in 1st] you hit record button/screen and hopefully if the car accelerates correctly you have every 1/100 of a second data that can be scrolled and sampled and written down as appropriate because 3 x 100= 300 x a foot [300'] is a lot of paper.
A detailed analysis of the important parameters stablized every 100- 250 rpms is enough data.
Some day I'll discuss the equation necessary to translate the MAF voltage to grams per second of air flow which can be approximated to 1.2 HP per gram per second. 255 gms would be 310-325 HP.................255 steps is the max resolution.
All you need to know now is somewhere from 5800-6,000 to 6900 rpm the MAF should hit 4.40 volts or greater vs 1.2 at idle. Obviously a hot day would decrease this some but the equation is very exponential so lots of difference between 4.30, 4.40, and 4.44 volts.
A detailed analysis of the important parameters stablized every 100- 250 rpms is enough data.
Some day I'll discuss the equation necessary to translate the MAF voltage to grams per second of air flow which can be approximated to 1.2 HP per gram per second. 255 gms would be 310-325 HP.................255 steps is the max resolution.
All you need to know now is somewhere from 5800-6,000 to 6900 rpm the MAF should hit 4.40 volts or greater vs 1.2 at idle. Obviously a hot day would decrease this some but the equation is very exponential so lots of difference between 4.30, 4.40, and 4.44 volts.
I need a consult!
Am I the only one, or does it seem to everyone that for us DIYers, when it comes to reallying nailing the engine electronics, we're pretty much up a creek without a Consult.
Too bad these things cost as much as a new set of injectors!
The local Nissan dealership asks $40 for a PBT. How many of these do I need to get done in order to warrant one?
Dan
Too bad these things cost as much as a new set of injectors!
The local Nissan dealership asks $40 for a PBT. How many of these do I need to get done in order to warrant one?
Dan
Voltages for a lot of sensors can be read straight from the back of the ECU with the car on or running. Not as easy as plugging in a Consult, but not too hard either. No manual PBT though as far as I know.Is it true that a Consult costs as much as a new set of injectors? I would have thought they'd be much more than that.
DAEDALUS wrote:Is it true that a Consult costs as much as a new set of injectors? I would have thought they'd be much more than that.
I've actaully seen consult 1's on ebay about every other month for $300 - $400. They are pretty rare, limited mostly to dealership closings or upgrading.
However $400 is much less than a set of injectors. Even a early consult would keep me happy for months.
dan
Okay, I think perhaps my point's been a little muddled.
When it comes the engine control electronics - ecu + everything else. There are times when even the most dyed in the wool DIYer needs to go to a shop, cause they, by virtue of working on dozens of cars, can afford specialized equipment that is a little outside our grasp.
And sure... there's a wee bit o' DIYer at work on my part looking for the angle where I can have my cake and eat it too, all for under $2K. Rats!
There is a parallel thread
http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....21481
it's pretty much finished now, but in it you can clearly see how much extra work and time is required to diagnose an idle problem without the equipment Nissan intended.
dan
When it comes the engine control electronics - ecu + everything else. There are times when even the most dyed in the wool DIYer needs to go to a shop, cause they, by virtue of working on dozens of cars, can afford specialized equipment that is a little outside our grasp.
And sure... there's a wee bit o' DIYer at work on my part looking for the angle where I can have my cake and eat it too, all for under $2K. Rats!
There is a parallel thread
http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....21481
it's pretty much finished now, but in it you can clearly see how much extra work and time is required to diagnose an idle problem without the equipment Nissan intended.
dan
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
You don't need to diagnose IF you practice preventative maintenance every year by cleaning everything.A rail flush, a vapor and manual plenum TB cleaning, some kind of a booster fuel additive prior to every oil change [every 90 days]...........total cost less than $300 per year.
Change the air and fuel filters every year and all the other fluids [ATF, Diff, PS, and brake] at the same time.
If it doesn't get dirty it can't cause a problem in the first place.
Change the air and fuel filters every year and all the other fluids [ATF, Diff, PS, and brake] at the same time.
If it doesn't get dirty it can't cause a problem in the first place.
Q45tech wrote:You don't need to diagnose IF you practice preventative maintenance every year by cleaning everything.A rail flush, a vapor and manual plenum TB cleaning, some kind of a booster fuel additive prior to every oil change [every 90 days]...........total cost less than $300 per year.
Change the air and fuel filters every year and all the other fluids [ATF, Diff, PS, and brake] at the same time.
If it doesn't get dirty it can't cause a problem in the first place.
gotcha. thanks.
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AZhitman
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Tgvince wrote:Hey Greg...You for got to mention your windows rolled up and down just fine and the wipers worked as well:).
LOL - No kidding - That is one seriously cool machine!
These guys were teasing me that they could make Quella "shake her groove thang" just by telling her to via the Consult...
I'm sorry Dennis, I'm still learning here - But I'm still a little fuzzy on whether the PBT results are problematic in your opinion, and whether there's a problem with the idle speed.
Also, is your opinion that the O2's require replacing if the indicated v does NOT fluctuate during the testing (both remained constant throughout, +/- 0.1v)?
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sijoko
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There is a device called a Techtom MDM-100 which lets you see the some of the ECU parameters such as water temp, injector time, O2 sensor, TPS voltage etc. It is a read only device. It plugs into the dataport on 92-95 Nissans/Infiniti.
It is not as nice as a Consult, but you can use it for most DIY work. I paid about $450 for mine about 3 years ago. I don't even know if it is still available.
It is not as nice as a Consult, but you can use it for most DIY work. I paid about $450 for mine about 3 years ago. I don't even know if it is still available.
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Q45tech
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- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
The Consult reports OK IF all cylinders contribute something!
Any rpm drop other than ZERO!
This does not mean anything other than the cylinder is not completely dead...........negative numbers are possible due to the friction of a dead cylinder being less when the fuel is shut off!
All power balances should show the exact same rpm drop, if they don't - redo the test twice and average the results.If the deviation is still more than 12-25 rpm you have problems!
Watch out for weird numbers that don't make sense..........sometimes the coolant temp varies [still warming up].....the test should wait until 3-5 minutes after you reach 176F watching that the temp doesn't continue to climb.
In practice something greater than a 25 rpm variance is feelable as an idle shake and 50-62 rpm is really noticeable.................not unusal to see Q come in with 50-75 rpm variance or even 100 rpm. 95% can be cleaned up to spec unless the rings are worn or the valves are leaking or the injector is really bad.
A cylinder has to be almost dead to notice much at high way speed...........after all each contributes only 12.5% of total power.
You could dyno the engine and it would only be 30-40 HP off [higher due to negative power to move the dead piston] and that might only affect the acceleration by 0.3-0.5 second.
Any rpm drop other than ZERO!
This does not mean anything other than the cylinder is not completely dead...........negative numbers are possible due to the friction of a dead cylinder being less when the fuel is shut off!
All power balances should show the exact same rpm drop, if they don't - redo the test twice and average the results.If the deviation is still more than 12-25 rpm you have problems!
Watch out for weird numbers that don't make sense..........sometimes the coolant temp varies [still warming up].....the test should wait until 3-5 minutes after you reach 176F watching that the temp doesn't continue to climb.
In practice something greater than a 25 rpm variance is feelable as an idle shake and 50-62 rpm is really noticeable.................not unusal to see Q come in with 50-75 rpm variance or even 100 rpm. 95% can be cleaned up to spec unless the rings are worn or the valves are leaking or the injector is really bad.
A cylinder has to be almost dead to notice much at high way speed...........after all each contributes only 12.5% of total power.
You could dyno the engine and it would only be 30-40 HP off [higher due to negative power to move the dead piston] and that might only affect the acceleration by 0.3-0.5 second.