Need Help Fighting RedLight Ticket

[skydragoness]

Ok, my mom was driving in town, (wilmington) last year around august. Well one month later she received a ticket with 2 photos of her car going through a red light and a fine of $75. My mom told me that the light was yellow and she didn't have time to stop so she kept going and guessed that maybe the light turned red as she went under it. Well, the first photo shows my mom's Camry right on the crosswalk line, and the 2nd photo shows her halfway thru the intersection. So i told her about the articles from that editor in SCC about Red Light Tickets and how they are time-fixed and such. I told my mom to fight the ticket on the basis that she didn't have time to safely stop (on the line) when the light was yellow, as she explained, if she did she would have been in the middle of the intersection if she had stopped for the yellow light.

Also, the Red light time is listed at 0.1 seconds, not even a second! and yellow light time as 4.0 seconds.

Her court date is this Friday (whoa, took 'em a while), i told her that we should photocopy those articles from SCC, but i was thinking...what other information should she bring? Or ask for??

Any insight would be appreciated

[SWIFT_DRIFT]

Instead of photocopying it from SCC you should find the actual articles SCC used and get copies of those. Just a bit more professional to have the actual data instead of second hand reprint out of a magazine.

[PalmerWMD]

Actually if teh redlight time is lsited as 0.1 secondsit just about proves that it couldn't have been red yet when she looked at it.

As long as its still yellow its legal in almost all states, that u can take the light if u feel it safe.

Fred...

[skydragoness]

I know! It's blatantly clear to me that the camera took the pic as soon as the light turned red, BUT my mom was already going through the intersection because it was yellow when she approached the intersection. But is that much an argument there? Seems like i need to back it up with some data about how much space it takes for a car to come to a complete stop or specifically a 98' Camry to stop ---and in how many feet. that would do it

[APEXi240]

Also you have the right to confront and examine your accuser. Since you cannot cross-examine a camera the judge will throw it out. Plead not guilty, you'll have plenty of time to prepare for your (mom's) case.

[skydragoness]

So when my mom goes to court this Friday, all she has to say is "not guilty"? And the judge will throw it out?

[DAEDALUS]

What is the speed limit on that street? You can assume she was going that speed, make an assumption on the acceleration of a "safe" stop (say, 1/2g?), and then back-calculate whether she could have stopped in the given distance based on the time allowed. It has been done successfully. Not often. The traffic engineers should have done their job right, but hey, it's no secret that traffic engineers aren't the most experienced engineers working for the state.

[DAEDALUS]

Can you explain what the red light time of .1 seconds means? I assume the light was yellow for 4 seconds before going red.It's often pointless to argue against automated ticketing. The state probably spent millions of dollars qualifying and certifying the systems for accuracy.My understanding is that there are 2 triggers in the road. The first trigger is armed only if the light is red. If it is crossed, then it counts as a violation (1st pic?). The second trigger is what confirms the violation (2nd pic?). I think maybe the .1 sec is how long it took to go from 1 trigger to the next. This probably doesn't help at all, but is it .1 or .100? Could it be .051 seconds? Or .149 seconds?

[APEXi240]

So when my mom goes to court this Friday, all she has to say is "not guilty"? And the judge will throw it out?

No, if you plead not guilty they will give you another court date, if you plead guilty or talk to the prosecuter you will be in and out in one night.

[Stoneage_Turbo]

whats the average reaction time of a human ? comapred to the redlight time?

bad part is i could judt hear the judge say " yellow means slow down "

if the light goes yellow as you hit the solid white stripe before the light then at the speed limit you will pass thru the light before it turns red , solid white line indicates the safe stopping distance from said speedlimit from the time the light turns yellow , if it turns yellow before you get to the solid white your screwed ...at least this is what im told

now , since they took the time to install this little system , whos to say they didnt monkey with the light and its times , cops in the town in florida im from have cordless screwdrivers and signs so they can change the speedlimit from 45 to 25 as highschool lets out , they do this 2 times a year , got me once , ususly brings down 25-30 cars everytime they do it , tired to fight it , didnt have the time and the judge was in on it anyway .....swaer they should change the name of the town to "hazzrd county"

[skydragoness]

hmm, unfortunately my mom has the ticket in her purse (and is at work now) i should've posted the photos taken so you guys could have a look-see

i think probably the speed limit on the road was 25mph

[skydragoness]

ok, i talked to her recently and she said the road there was actually had a 35mph speed limit, so at that speed how much distance would it take for the car to stop safely (on the line?)

apparently this means you have to stop at yellow light before the crosswalk, no matter, what. Even though the driver's ed definition of a yellow light is: 'proceed with caution'

this is starting to remind me of that Simpson's episode where Lisa and her Council of Nerds mandated that Springfield's traffic lights only have red' and yellow lights, to speed up traffic--lol

[skydragoness]

Also Daedulus, or Professor Fink, hehehe

the 1st pic had the car going over the line of the crosswalkthe 2nd pic had the car not even halfway into the intersectionbut both pictures had a big black square (black and white pictures too) that covered up the traffic light so you could'n't see whether or not the light was yellow in the first pic and red in the 2nd. How's that for accuracy? There was also a third pic, but that was just of the license plate...

[Get240DiZzY]

Everything in springfirld went to hell after the "Council of Nerds" took over. IMO if the red light time is .1 seconds, then you have a pretty good chance at winning, but I'm not all that familiar with the court system.

[sapix @ RHIT]

I'd assume around a one second reaction time. This isn't that quick, but most people aren't very quick to react to things.

So assume 35 mph or 51.3 ft/s. Lets see, a safe stoping speed is1/2 g, thats 16ft/s^2 so from here we calculate that comes out to be about 3.2 seconds to stop, add on the 1 second reaction time, thats over 4.0 seconds. Thats also a distance of 82 feet... that seems like a lot of distance, I think I screwed up somewhere. If someone feels like doing the calculations too feel free to correct me, I'm just bored between classes so I thought I'd do it.

[DAEDALUS]

Find out when those pics are taken relative to the lights. If the car's front wheels were past the line when the light turned red, that may have triggered the sensor, but would be a legal crossing in many states (front wheels past the line during light change). --first chance at getting off.I got the same results for stopping distance, so there might be further chance here. I think the weakest link in this argument is the 1/2g assumption as being the greatest "safest" deceleration. I think a 1-sec reaction time is a standard assumption for traffic calcs. Was the road wet? That might help (or it could hurt--"you should have been driving slower"). IF you can convince the judge that anything more than 1/2g would be unsafe, then it's a strong argument that 4 seconds is not enough time to come to a complete and safe stop from 35mph.Silly question, but do any of the pictures clearly show the driver's face? If the face isn't clearly recognizable, then that alone would be grounds for dismissal in many states.

[90Q45blue]

What you have to understand when it comes to traffic violations such as this and speeding is that 80 percent of the battle is won by just showing up. 99.9 percent of people just pay the tickets so that's how they make their money. With the .1 second difference it's very easy to argue. Also, how many tickets has you mom had? If it's under 3 in the past 2 years, try going to talk to the prosecutor before the court hearing and see if he will amend the ticket to "inattentive driving" for just 20 dollars (on average) more, this violation is not a county/state code but a city-only code. This means that your insurance will never know and even if they did, they couldn't do anything about it because they are required to use county/state codes for determining penalties. But bottom-line is show up and plead your case, be VERY VERY VERY respectful to the judge and you'll probably walk away scott free.

One a side note, here's a joke for you:

A man in Colorado received a letter in the mail with a picture of his car speeding along the interstate with a ticket for $130. Frustrated with the new system but keeping his sense of humor, he mailed the police another letter with a picture of $130 dollars in cash. Three days later, the man received another letter from the police department with a picture of handcuffs. The man then paid the ticket.

Nick

[skydragoness]

Well, my mom went to court today, turns out she has to pay it anyway. She said she was one of 6 there, she said "as soon as you walk in your guilty, and they don't want to hear anything you have to say, they saw the article i had (the scc i lent her) and the judge said: OBJECTION!" My mom brought up some good points about the 0.1 second, and how the system doesn't work according to how people's perception of speed, stopping in the right amount of time, and phsyics. Some other guy she said that was there said something about how he hates this new system, and blah blah blah..

oh well, it was worth a shotDELAWARE IS EVIL

[groundhogday1976]

Has anyone seen those clear license plate covers that supposedly keep the cameras from "seeing" the plate numbers? I wonder if those work, although we don't have cameras here...

[DAEDALUS]

I think they do work, but they are almost certainly illegal, and I'd rather play it a little safer at the lights than get pulled over every month. The cover is just a polarized surface, kind of like a venitian blind. As long as you're at least a certain angle from looking straigt at the plate (perpendicular sight vector), neither you nor any camera can read the plate. But again, they're too obvious and I wouldn't risk it with the cops. They're very cheap to manufacture; I can't believe people are paying $60 or more for them.

[skydragoness]

that's something i'm considering on getting, for my car and my mom's-- highly illegal if your'e caught with one i'm sure, but i guess it would be a good rule of thumb to take it off before going to the inspection lane probably. probably a scam too, and doesn't do anything

[Blazin Hondas]

I know its late, but for future reference, In Cali if your on the Crosswalk line.. the limit line at the time the light changes, you can leagally proced thru the intersection. And to combat the cameras, and the cops I have a rotating licence plate. Its cool. I flip the switch and It turns over, on a color matched plate so it looks clean when its fliped. Duno if thats illeagal, but its cool.

[BadQ45t]

What a minute, Mr. Blazin, are you serious about the rotating plates??? If your not serious, than fine, but if you really are how the heck did you so that?