Need Engineer's and Parent's Input

[nissangirl74]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/homeless- ... 03472.html

This story is about a kid going to engineering school, specifically Ketterling University. apparently in the engineering world, they're a BFD. He wasn't poor but his parents lost a crap ton of money and earning ability during the crash. He worked hard, applied for scholarships, etc. but still couldn't swing the whole bill for tuition ($37,000 annually WITHOUT room and board). His mom worked two jobs too to help build up his fund. His solution was to give up housing 6 months out of the year (he has housing when he works. Details are in the link, but relies heavily on the generosity of others). In the article, his mother said that she and her husband had really hoped that her son would pick an in-state school. He didn't, hence the roughly $150,000 bill for a four year degree.

To the engineers, is your profession in such high demand that you really NEED to go to a "prestigious" school in order to gain employment? Could he have gotten would he needed at an in-state school or is this school worth the bill?

To the parents, what would you tell your child? Would you insist that they go to a school that is affordable and would have been less stress on him or would you say, if that's what you want, go ahead but you could end up with a degree that doesn't mean much more than the one you could have received in state?

[Bubba1]

Bex, there is no single right answer for your questions as everyone has their own unique situations and varying attitudes toward finances and higher education.

Ketterling indeed has a good reputation. Although $37K is a lot of money to you and me, that's actually considered reasonable compared to their northeastern counterparts. I believe Ketterling's numero uno in the country for Mechanical Engineering.

As far as colleges go, there has always been debate about the value of private vs state college education. IMHO there are some minor advantages for those that attend a top tier private school, especially with a technical discipline like engineering, but that benefit is limited for just getting started. 10 years after graduation, let's face it, recruiters are more interested in your work experience than where you went to college. Bottom line is, success is much more determined by the student themselves than the school they attended. For example, both my brother and I attended a private university. We both knew upfront it was a burden for our parents, who spelled out clearly their willingness to help us attend and the limits of they could afford. My brother and I knew it would have been an easier time financially if we chose state schools, but we both wanted to go to that particular school. So we each paid the difference between what our parents said they could give us and the rest of the costs on our own. My brother did it via scholarships and grants. I did it by working multiple side jobs. Both of us went on to long careers within our majors (his was civil engineering, I was biz management). When it was my older sister's turn, my father's business had a temporary bad spell so he could not afford as much for tuition for her first choice which was private. She ended up at her 2nd choice, a state school. She loved her experience at that state school and went on to a long, successful career in her major (special ed). She was never bitter about not going to her first choice and her career worked out quite well.

Fast forward a few decades and now my son is in college. Like most parents, I too was rooting for him to attend a state school from a financial perspective. Heck, a 4 year (PA) state school degree now costs just a tad more than one year at a private school. Mine ended up at a private school, which is fine. Obviously we all want to give our children the best education possible and their first choice, but we must realistic when it comes to affording it. If the child is determined to attend a school beyond what's affordable to the parents , my suggestion for the parent(s) is to simply to sit down with the child, and lay out reality. And together try to find a way to make it work. Maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't. That's reality. But if the child is motivated enough, they'll find a way. There are many ways to get into college besides scholarships/grants or going deep into debt or going homeless. For example, one could look into programs where you do 2 years at a community college, then transfer into their first choice school after sophomore year, which would make it much more affordable. other ideas include the GI bill, or working for a college. I have a relative who got a job at a PA state school just so his kids could get free tuition at any PA state school. Pretty dang smart.

[nissangirl74]

For example, one could look into programs where you do 2 years at a community college, then transfer into their first choice school after sophomore year, which would make it much more affordable.

It amazes me why more people don't do this. By getting my RN through a community college (and my bachelor's via a concurrent program), I'm saving about $30,000 over the closest 4 year university's tuition. That's a lot of house payments.

I have a relative who got a job at a PA state school just so his kids could get free tuition at any PA state school. Pretty dang smart.

That's brilliant

[Bubba1]

It amazes me why more people don't do this. By getting my RN through a community college (and my bachelor's via a concurrent program), I'm saving about $30,000 over the closest 4 year university's tuition. That's a lot of house payments.

It clearly makes the most sense economically. The primary downside, which I think is more of a factor for a teen than a parent, is their missing out on the first two years of the college "experience" away from home. Many community college students end up living with mom/dad while attending. The allure of living on my own away at college was a very strong motivator for me when I was in high school. Hard to place a value on that.

[Looneybomber]

My .02 as an engineering student. Of the employers I've talked to, they don't care what school you go to and don't even care much about your GPA so long as it's not bad. I've heard it said before a few times - having a 4.0 and NOTHING else to put on your resume isn't that impressive. They're looking for an employee, not a computer. Many recruiters, HR folks, and even higher ups (Senior VP, COO, etc) have told me it's better to have a >3.0 GPA, be active in clubs/organizations, and have experience/internships than to have a 4.0 and nothing else.

So to answer your question, unless you're looking for an elite, prestigious job, a state university is good enough.

My .02 as a parent. I would advise against my kids going to a stupid expensive school. A state university is expensive enough. I would also recommend they join the military for some tuition assistance. In 2013, I pocketed 4 or 5k AFTER paying for all of my school related expenses. Essentially, I get paid to go to school. It doesn't cover my housing, but as an adult, I need to live somewhere regardless if I am a student or not, so I don't factor that in.

[Kompresshun]

Kristen was smart and went to a local college for all of her BSN, so it really saved her a ton of money. Then she's going to a state school for her masters degree, but it still isn't cheap. It's costing us around $60,000, but it'll be well worth it in the end and she'll likely be getting reimbursed for it but even if she doesn't, we'll be able to pay it off fairly quick.

It's funny though, because her dad pushed her to go to a local school to save money. Her younger sisters aren't getting the same treatment and of course they won't listen nor will their dad to Kristen about it either. One of them is planning to go to a private school to get a 2 year nursing degree, which is a complete waste of money all around since hospitals are hiring BSN(4yr RN's) as a priority over the 2 year programs. My in-laws are like know-it-all teenagers though and don't take advice very well from anyone(younger or older), yet they'll complain like crazy about how they're spending to much money after it's too late. You can't fix stupid, but you can certainly sit back and laugh your a** off when they realize their mistake after it's too late.

In my opinion, unless you're intending to do something very specialized, there is no reason to waste money on an expensive school. Save your money, go to a state school, and try to find as much tuition assistance and reimbursements you can to help pay for it. It's out there, you just have to look for it and sometimes have to work a little harder for it.

[AZhitman]

The primary downside, which I think is more of a factor for a teen than a parent, is their missing out on the first two years of the college "experience" away from home.

I see that as a plus.

I'm convinced, most 17-19 year olds aren't mature enough to be out there on their own... I wasn't (even though I was working F/T and had stellar grades).

There's a reason lots of students are on the "5 or 6 year plan."

[Bubba1]

The primary downside, which I think is more of a factor for a teen than a parent, is their missing out on the first two years of the college "experience" away from home.

I see that as a plus.

I'm convinced, most 17-19 year olds aren't mature enough to be out there on their own... I wasn't (even though I was working F/T and had stellar grades).

There's a reason lots of students are on the "5 or 6 year plan."

I agree many 17-19 yr olds are not mature enough to be on their own, BUT I'm not sure I see see how they can better learn to be self sufficient without living away from mom/dad. And living away from the nest in a relatively insulated environment like a college campus is a pretty good way.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

To the engineers, is your profession in such high demand that you really NEED to go to a "prestigious" school in order to gain employment?

No.

I know plenty of dumbass engineers and really sharp engineers that came from the same school. I also know some (although not many) MIT scholars/grads that really can't apply anything they know to the real world, which most employers aren't interested in.

If you're going to go to an out of state school and rack up that much debt, you might as well go whole hog and do MIT. Otherwise, just do in-state.

[laxands13]

My .02 as a current engineering student - There's no NEED to go to a prestigious school to gain employment, everyone needs engineers and if you can graduate with an engineering degree you will be able to find a job. I was lucky enough to grow up in Georgia with the HOPE scholarship and get accepted to Georgia Tech. Although I can't speak for other engineering schools, I can tell you that what separates Georgia Tech as a school from most other schools is the way employment is encouraged. Only about 37% (somewhere around there, can't remember specific number) of students graduate in 4 years. That's because work-study programs are heavily, heavily encouraged and recruited extremely well. It's almost an expectation from the administration and people around you to get a job. When you have a job, you don't attend school that semester. Do you need to have worked in college to get a job when you graduate? Not at all. But from most employers I've spoken with and heard talk (and I'm sure everyone knows), if you have the choice between hiring someone with experience and someone without, the decision is already made.

I guess my point, in summary, is that the "prestigiousness" doesn't matter but the school's attitude toward working AND getting an education does. The chance to work during semesters will allow your student to save some money prior to graduation or help pay their way through; even if all they pay is rent and food, that saves you a good chunk that you can put back toward their tuition.

[OriginalWheelman]

I cant personally speak for engineering, but my wife's story has some relevance here.

She has an Anthropology degree from a state school.
She got a job working in a research position at a special needs school. Here she started working on the IT side, doing a lot of data work.
While working that job she took 2 years of courses in Comp Sci, and has not finished a degree.
She took that work exp, and the 2 years of school and got a job as a Systems administrator.
While working on that job she studied software engineering on her own time.
After working that job for a year she was able to take an internal job posting for a Developer II position, and has been working at that for almost a year.

So, with a BS in Anthropology my wife is making a great living as a Developer, and she is now looking at 6 figure jobs. If they mention her degree at all, it is usually to ask how she ended up in IT with a Humanities degree.

Conculsion? Education is s***. Work exp is what matters. All they care about is that she has a degree, not what it is in.

[Z Car Barbie]

What I don't understand is why he doesn't apply for financial aid and a GradPlus loan in his own name. Perhaps his parents are still claiming him as a dependant for income tax purposes and they're still living above the minimal baseline for maximum student financial aid, even with their monetary set-back. Anyway, the opportunity is there for him if he just knew the proper route. I would know - been there, done that.

[szh]

I'm convinced, most 17-19 year olds aren't mature enough to be out there on their own... I wasn't (even though I was working F/T and had stellar grades).

Could be, but sometimes people don't learn to swim till they are thrown into the deep end of the pool.

As long as you are there to prevent them from totally drowning (watching and checking in from a distance in the case of a college away from home), this can work.

I left home to go to college just after I turned 18 and haven't looked back ... I doubt my experience was that unique, as lots of kids still do that.

Yes, I made my mistakes, but I also learned from them.

Z

[Looneybomber]

So, with a BS in Anthropology my wife is making a great living as a Developer, and she is now looking at 6 figure jobs. If they mention her degree at all, it is usually to ask how she ended up in IT with a Humanities degree.

Conculsion? Education is bullsh*t. Work exp is what matters. All they care about is that she has a degree, not what it is in.

While I won't say education is BS, I will say numerous jobs require "a bachelors degree" just so they know you're trainable. That just devalues a degree and I've talked about this for years. This is why so many schools are "diploma mills" just pumping out degrees as fast as they can, while racking in the money!

In the engineering field, they normally require a degree in that associated field (aerospace, mechanical, electrical, etc...) because four years of education does give you an idea of how things work. That said, your place of employment will train you for your job, but will require you to have at least some understanding due to formal education. It should also be said that a bachelors in engineering is a professional level degree. In order to be a Professional Engineer (PE) you need your 4 yr BS, pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE exam), spend 4 yrs working with a PE, and pass the Principles and Practice of Engineering exam. Nearly all other professions require a graduate or post graduate degree (PhD, MD, JD, etc...) in order to be a professional.

Software is a different animal and is more like a foreign language. You can learn a foreign language on your own by using Rosetta Stone and moving to that country, just like software languages can be learned by using Eclipse and writing your own programs with help from Google.

[OriginalWheelman]

I agree with you that engineering is a different animal. However, it's not impossible to learn something technical if you want to learn it and have the internet. Case and point I was discussing the finer points of string theory with a PhD for about half an hour, at which point he asked me where I went to school. When I told him "Google" he got pretty upset.

[Looneybomber]

I agree with you that engineering is a different animal. However, it's not impossible to learn something technical if you want to learn it and have the internet. Case and point I was discussing the finer points of string theory with a PhD for about half an hour, at which point he asked me where I went to school. When I told him "Google" he got pretty upset.

With the printed and digital material today, along with tech schools, a person can learn a LOT. There are multiple ways to get from A to B, with "B" being that ability to "do". I think the only benefit to getting a BS vs getting certs at a tech school is the understanding of "why" something works instead of just accepting that it does work. It's useless to know the math (calc and differential equations) and understand phase angles in power systems if you're a residential electrician, but would be crucial if you were designing transformers or revamping smart grids.

That brings up a great point. I talked at length with a Kiewit employee just a month ago; hates his job. His biggest complaint was that he got his BS in mech E, racked up 60k in loans and yet does the same thing as the guys that went to a 2 yr tech school, then worked as an apprentice for 2 yrs. Both went from point A to point B. The only difference is the tech school guys have nearly no debt and make basically the same as he does. In this case, it wasn't even the difference between a prestigious school vs. state school, it's university vs. tech school!

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I feel like I could have compressed my engineering schooling into 2 years if they dropped the colossal amount of crap that you really don't need.

[alphapig]

My law school tuition is 42,000 per year. And it's not a top school or anything

Bar exam itself costs $700, moral character evaluation costs $500, and bar exam prep (good luck passing without it) ranges from $1,200 - $5,000.

And no job guarantee in any sense.

So could be worse I guess

[nissangirl74]

My law school tuition is 42,000 per year. And it's not a top school or anything

Bar exam itself costs $700, moral character evaluation costs $500, and bar exam prep (good luck passing without it) ranges from $1,200 - $5,000.

And no job guarantee in any sense.

So could be worse I guess

Damn man

[Bubba1]

My law school tuition is 42,000 per year. And it's not a top school or anything

Bar exam itself costs $700, moral character evaluation costs $500, and bar exam prep (good luck passing without it) ranges from $1,200 - $5,000.

And no job guarantee in any sense.

So could be worse I guess

Gee, I thought in many cases the terms "moral character" and "lawyer" are contradictory.... (j/k)

[Looneybomber]

My law school tuition is 42,000 per year. And it's not a top school or anything

My roommate went to pharmacy school. He paid 8100/semester and they raised tuition to 10k/semester. I thought that was bad! He had a 6 fig job waiting for him when he got done.

[krash]

Well I'm still a student, but everyone I've talked to (professors, employers, graduates) all seem to say that where you get your undergrad from doesn't really matter too much. If you're doing grad school and getting your masters, then thats when you'd want to shell out some cash and go to a more prestigious school.

I go to University of Memphis, not particularly known for being the most prestigious school. But, my experience here I'm pretty sure would trump the experience I would have had at a school like University of Maryland. Its a smaller school, so its a lot easier to get involved.

I've been here a year and I just became President of our schools SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) chapter. I'm going out and getting sponsors for our team, networking, learning things about the industry that you dont learn in class, actually applying engineering knowledge. That looks way better on a resume that a 4.0 from a top dollar school.

....and its like 12,000 a year at the most.

[Bubba1]

I suspect if you ask someone who graduated from one of those expensive private schools about the value of a degree from that type of institution compared to others, the answer might differ from someone that did not.

There are benefits to attending those schools as well as drawbacks. The drawbacks obviously include cost. But the benefits include a more challenging curriculum, which attracts recruiters, for example. That's one of the reasons you'll find starting salaries for graduates tend to average higher at those schools. How do I know? I have a friend who used to do college recruiting. But, Is attending one of those schools required to get a good job? Of course not.

Bottom line is that the value of a college education, whether state or private, is what you make of it. And as far as whether a private or state school is best for you (or your child), the answer will be different for everyone.

[EazyBreazy]

It is my understanding that if it's an ABET accredited school, to graduate you have to pass the FE(Fundementals of Engineering Exam) to graduate ensuring that all engineering students have the same basic knowledge after graduation regardless of where they go. I'll be taking it in the fall and or the spring semesters coming up.

Well I'm still a student, but everyone I've talked to (professors, employers, graduates) all seem to say that where you get your undergrad from doesn't really matter too much. If you're doing grad school and getting your masters, then thats when you'd want to shell out some cash and go to a more prestigious school.

I go to University of Memphis, not particularly known for being the most prestigious school. But, my experience here I'm pretty sure would trump the experience I would have had at a school like University of Maryland. Its a smaller school, so its a lot easier to get involved.

I've been here a year and I just became President of our schools SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) chapter. I'm going out and getting sponsors for our team, networking, learning things about the industry that you dont learn in class, actually applying engineering knowledge. That looks way better on a resume that a 4.0 from a top dollar school.



....and its like 12,000 a year at the most.

Krash, do yall do the Mini Baja Comp?, I'm the president of the UT Martin SAE and I don't remember seeing you guys at any of the Baja comps we've been to.

[krash]

It is my understanding that if it's an ABET accredited school, to graduate you have to pass the FE(Fundementals of Engineering Exam) to graduate ensuring that all engineering students have the same basic knowledge after graduation regardless of where they go. I'll be taking it in the fall and or the spring semesters coming up.

I think different schools do different things for ABET. In my school you don't necisarily have to pass the FE to graduate (but you do need to pass it to pass one class, which technically I guess means you have to pass it to graduate...) but the way my school keeps their accreditation is by giving out "competency tests". Basically, in each engineering course you have 3-5 competency tests that you have to get 100% on. you have 2-3 tries on each test to get 100%. If you fail a competency and you have no more tries left then you fail the class.

Krash, do yall do the Mini Baja Comp?, I'm the president of the UT Martin SAE and I don't remember seeing you guys at any of the Baja comps we've been to.

We do! We went to Rochester, NY last year and Pittsburgh, Kansas this year.

[elwesso]

It is my understanding that if it's an ABET accredited school, to graduate you have to pass the FE(Fundementals of Engineering Exam) to graduate ensuring that all engineering students have the same basic knowledge after graduation regardless of where they go. I'll be taking it in the fall and or the spring semesters coming up.

Depends what field/school you're in... The school I went to for Mech. Eng. is ABET accredited, however we were not required to take the FE (we were encouraged).. I didn't take the FE until after I was out of college for a couple years...

I think as long as you're ABET accredited, you're golden in the engineering world. Kettering was great for a lot of folks wanting to get into the big 3..

In Indiana, there's 3 really big engineering schools.. Purdue, Tri-state (Trine), and Rose-Hulman. Purdue is obviously the biggest and the cheapest, Tri-state is second (I think about 30k/year), and rose is about $50k per year... In many cases, I've heard employers say they prefer Trine grads over Rose-Hulman grads because they're more turn-key, have better writing and speaking skills, and more hands-on oriented, rather than basically preparing you to go to grad school.

For me, I think the added value of going to Trine (a school of 1200 people), I got a lot more individual attention, and professors were there to teach, not to do research. Compared to a place like Purdue, which those professors are really only teach because they have to.... Depends what kind of person you are, at Purdue it's basically "sink or swim", because you'll get very little assistance from professors and you have to figure out things on your own.

I think for engineering it doesn't make a lot of difference, since engineers are always in such high demand you'll be able to get a job no matter where you go (within reason). I think for jobs that are a little more common, like people with business degrees for example, a better institution may offer more leverage than someone from another place. If they have the same accreditation, you can assume they have AT LEAST the same level of knowledge (might be more)...

[dgms240]

To the engineers, is your profession in such high demand that you really NEED to go to a "prestigious" school in order to gain employment? Could he have gotten would he needed at an in-state school or is this school worth the bill?

In short, the answer is NO.

I have a AS in Civil Engineering and a BS in Mechanical Engineering. I had zero help from my parents or family and had to take out loans for everything. I went to a local technical school for the civil degree and a state school that was originally part of GA Tech for the mechanical degree. That being said, I was able to get a great job right out of school and the loans I have to pay back are less than half of what was quoted for that "prestigious" school. Approximately $60k including interest for both schools (tuition,fees,room and board,etc).