NA KA24DE Build

[unahanaretsu]

Just some questions I've had after reading a lot of the helpful threads out there on building up a KA. This is gonna be dropped into a datsun 510. My goal is to take it up to 200 CRANK. I know it is seriously hard to get the car up to 200 wheels with an NA build, thats why I'm shooting for crank hp. Inspiration comes from this thread

http://www.club240.com/forums/...30440

Wanted this to be a weekend track car but DD so I'm not gonna turbo it. I love keeping things basic and not adding more things on. Also want to be a little different and keep good mpg

Picked up a engine, compression check was good, about 90k on motor, you think I should do a rebuild on the lower and upper block and replace the seals? I know the pistons and crank can hold up a lot but should I rebuild it for my hp goals? 3 angle valve job and new camshaft needed?

I know the basic things, KN air filter, but can I get away with a stock intake manifold. I heard new ones arn't good bang for buck

It needs headers to get a better curve, but should I go with DC headers or OBX headers. Which give a bigger boost in HP and cooling.

Is there a cheap alternative to a JWT ECU.

What size injectors do you think I should run.

I'm also thinking about getting an aluminum pully, heard those really help, same with taking off the fan, but is there anything else I should do to the car. I really dont want to throw on ITB's or anything.

What stage clutch should I get. Thinking about getting a spec clutch and flywheel along with c's shortshifter. Do I need a 6 puck or will my hp goals not need it and I can downgrade.

Thanks for all the help guys!
Modified by unahanaretsu at 1:08 AM 8/16/2009

[unahanaretsu]

Bump for some help?

[Wc240]

if you can, id take the intake mani and get it just a lil ported, you can do a lot to the stock one and no, the aftermarket ones available right now arent that good.id say DC due to proven craftsmanship and gains. and id get the ceramic coated one.for injectors your gonna have to do some math, but you shouldnt really need bigger ones for your goals.JWT isnt that good unless you just want one tune. there are cheap reprogramables/piggybacks out thereyou dont need a 6 puck. any decent, just above oem should sufice. personally, ill never use anything other than ACT

[Bigvinnie]

If your HP goals are going to be greater than 170WHP, I would recommend getting larger injectors. Upgrading to the sr20det 370cc injectors are the better route for injectors. Then there are more alternative sources of fuel such as E85, and also standard gasoline.

For ECU tuning I would go with a NISTUNE daughter board for OBD1 16bit ecu's. SAFC's are O.K but then you would either need ecu talk, or a few dyno runs to determine if teh engine is making any good power.The Nistune board you would want is a Type 3 board for s13 KA24de's. http://www.nistune.com/

If you are eventually going turbo stick to a 3" exhaust.


Modified by Bigvinnie at 11:05 AM 8/15/2009

[unahanaretsu]

Thanks for all the info!

After reading a lot of articles on the ka24de I heard that air filters actually dirty your oil more and sticking with the oem is better. Is that true? Logic for me says buying something for 200 bucks while the preformance gains are minimal at best really is a waste of my time.

Back to my previous questions,

1. You guys still think I should rebuild the engine and put in a camshaft and new rods and stuff?

2. I think ill stick with the stock intake mani and filter.

3. I think ill go with DC headers too. Heard many good reviews on them.

4. Nistunes sound good but what about bikirom? JWT is way to expensive.

5. My friend tells me to run 550 injectors but that sounds like a huge waste of fuel and is not needed. My goals are to hit it up to 200 now so are 370 enough?

6. I've heard some mixed reviews on ACT clutches like slipping and such.

7. Forgot to tell you guys I was going to get a 2.25-2.5 Exhaust. I really don't want to turbo and deal with sticking in more parts.

7. Any other pearls of wisdom that i should get in order to free up some ponies?

[chrismo240sx]

depending on the condition of the motor, unless your going for crazy amounts of horsepower, you should be okay without a rebuild for the build you want, although a frsh rebuild wouldnt hurt.

Stock intake manifold is okay, and DC header is a good route to go with...i have OBX and they work fine, but to each his own...

I cant tell you about nistunes, as i have not done any research on them or have experience, but i do have a JWT ECU "upgrade" and i can honestly say i didnt notice any gains over stock ECU. So i would recomend something else other than JWT unless your gonna tune the JWT ECU with an SAFC or somehting. I have yet to do so...

370 injectors should be just fine for only 200hp

As for exhaust, i would recomend 2.5 in exhaust for N/A. I have one and it works great, made my our very own from NICO...Greg at BRM Exhaust. Great sound/tone and performance, and the welds/fitments were good.

Hope this helps!!

Vinnie... any more advise u can give me on the nistune? Is it any better than the JWT upgrade or should i just buy an AFC and dyno tune my car with the JWT ECU?

[unahanaretsu]

I don't think I need to rebuild the engine but ill probably clean the intake manifold for carbon and ill go full gaskets, hone and ring, valve seats and seals, and I think ill have a reliable engine that wont break down after that. Thanks for all your help guys!

[Bigvinnie]

Vinnie... any more advise u can give me on the nistune? Is it any better than the JWT upgrade or should i just buy an AFC and dyno tune my car with the JWT ECU?

I was originally going to go the route of the Calum board, willem rom burner, and tuner pro R/T.

SAFC is junk and you would need either ecu talk or hours on the dyno with wideband to know where you are at making power. I simply owned an SAFC to experiment with the stock ecu's potential. It's bound by so many limitations that it is over priced for just being a fuel converter, and there are dangers to it that people don't realize since the ignition and fuel maps are bound to each other which can be dangerous to the engine under significant load. Lieing to the ecu under it's specific load and changing it's fuel is also changing it's ignition, and because I don't know what that exact timing value is makes it dangerous to tune with. I think slight tuning with an safc is fine, but what I was doing to tune was going way beyond when I was +50 on fuel.

I had also thought about bikirom, but I had a friend that owned it for his KA-t, there were suppose to be updates to biki that esentially was going to make it a better hardware/software package and nothing happened. I don't like the interface for biki and you have to disconnect it to tune it. I use to recomend biki assuming that alot of issues would of been addressed and corrected as discussed at the biki forums. It seems that the developer has stopped trying to address some issues with the biki interface. I don't even know if you can still buy a biki board, but they retailed for $300.

After alot of thought the NISTUNE seems to be the way to go. Now I don't know for sure if PLMS designed the NISTUNE or if it is just a collaboration between the two companies (or if it is one in the same), but PLMS is known for designing boards for dualchip set daughter boards. For the price you can't beat it, it's sold in australia for $440 AUS, which when you convert it over costs roughly $369 USD. It by far doesn't come close to the AEM EMS which has a much higher resolution and much easier user inter face.You can't beat the price of the NISTUNE where as in comparison the AEM EMS will cost over $1000 to own.

Personal opinion is that, I would be willing to spend less for slightly less resolution. I think for anyone beginning ecu tuning it's better to keep it simple and start cheap and easy, then invest into something more expensive like the AEM EMS. I'm a beginner and probably will be for the next few years there is alot to learn.


Modified by Bigvinnie at 7:09 AM 8/12/2009

[unahanaretsu]

I totally understand the way you think bigvinnie. It exponentially gets more expensive to get higher end parts that do relatively only a little bit better than a decently priced part with decent power. I've been reading a few topics and people change out their cams a lot when going for a NA build. Are the stock cams really that bad? Spending 400 bucks on some BC cams seem insane to me

[Bigvinnie]

I totally understand the way you think bigvinnie. It exponentially gets more expensive to get higher end parts that do relatively only a little bit better than a decently priced part with decent power. I've been reading a few topics and people change out their cams a lot when going for a NA build. Are the stock cams really that bad? Spending 400 bucks on some BC cams seem insane to me

Well how hard do you want your engine to work?Or ask your self how efficient do you want your engine to be?I believe that the stock 240/248 CAMS are good for 180WHP NA with stock valves, possibly 200WHP with over sized valves and head work, and every possible bolt on omaginable. There's only so much lift that allows for so much NATURAL velocity and swirl, that the engine would just start to drown on it's own rich A/Frs after that.Definitely after market cams are a decent way to make power with ecu tuning in mind, and it's cheaper than machining and installing larger valves to the head, so that makes cam selections by far the easiest and faster method of increasing power. Gains on cams aren't as significant as they could be just by cam swapping. When ever the lobes and duration of the cams are changed your essentially changing the rate of time that air enters in to and exits out of the engine, this means it is best to change ignition and fuel maps so that they are consistent in making the best power.

Personally I don't like Brian Crower cams it just has easy written all over it. Using the same lobe and duration for intake and exhaust says to me that there wasn't a lot of R&D performed, but that the cam will work as a powerful midrange cam. I like cams that took a significant amount of time on R&D. Thats why I would rather spend the extra money on PDM racing cams over the Brian Crower brand.The difference is that the Brian crower cams are probably good for up to 200WHP with no head work and 220whp with head work. The PDM cams in the same way will make 200WHP with head work probably 220whp as well. the only true difference is where the power is placed on the power band. A brian crower cam with stock MAF will make peak power at 5800RPM, while the PDM cams with stock maf will make peak power to 6100RPM.Now lets say you replace the stock maf with an N60 diameter equivalent MAF. Now the brian crower cams will probably make peak power to 6100RPM while the PDM racing cams will make peak power at 6600RPM.

Wouldn't you want that power in the rev range where you could most often use it? I would. Since the KA isn't a high rever like an inline six engine I would prefer to keep as much of my power up at the top of the RPM range since in most tournaments most power and shifting points (UP SHIFTS) are between 5500 to 6500RPM. Even when downshifting to the 3000 to 4000RPM range you would want more fluid linearity with the power, rather than a sudden drop in peak power.


Modified by Bigvinnie at 11:12 AM 8/15/2009

[unahanaretsu]

Well considering my goals, 180 whp is already enough to it it considering 15% loss ect ect.

Already dropped in the ka into the 510. The thing is there is barely any room to fit the electronic fan inside. The engine is so close to the firewall and there is almost no space to put it. Will putting the fan on the outside of radiator be less beneficial or will it not matter.

[Bigvinnie]

Well considering my goals, 180 whp is already enough to it it considering 15% loss ect ect.

Already dropped in the ka into the 510. The thing is there is barely any room to fit the electronic fan inside. The engine is so close to the firewall and there is almost no space to put it. Will putting the fan on the outside of radiator be less beneficial or will it not matter.

You are infact supose to use a pusher fan on the 510. What Efan set up are you using?

[unahanaretsu]

Just this summit racing fan. It's reversible. Isn't it less efficient to place the fan on the outside though? Studies have shown something like 80% is lost in efficiency. With all my mods listed I think I can go ahead and order the parts and see what it hits on the dyno. The flywheel and clutch and shortshifter alone are super expensive. Almost as much as a headers, gaskets, injectors, ecu, pully, and radiator put together. If I'm really not happy (175 at the wheels keep my fingers crossed) then I guess I have to go the route and start to do a lot of nit picky stuff. In your honest opinion do you think it can hit 175whp with the these things:

Gasket kit for reliability3 Angle Vaulve JobDC headersNistune ECU370 injectors from a sr20Summit Racing radiatorElectric FansAllumium pully2.5 dynomax ExhaustSpec Flywheel and stage 2 clutch

P.S.

I guess I'm really slow but I just now noticed the creator of the thread I got inspiration from is you Bigvinnie lol.

Also if I cant hit my goals on the dyno ill probably go with cam shaft, new bearings and arp bolts, crank scrapers, and a head job port polish. Hopuflly I dont have to drop all that money though I really dont want to do a lot of internal work. It's a b**** and a whole lot of money. Also when you dynoed bigvinnie did you use 96 octane gas?
Modified by unahanaretsu at 1:19 AM 8/16/2009

[Bigvinnie]

Just this summit racing fan. It's reversible. Isn't it less efficient to place the fan on the outside though? Studies have shown something like 80% is lost in efficiency. With all my mods listed I think I can go ahead and order the parts and see what it hits on the dyno. The flywheel and clutch and shortshifter alone are super expensive. Almost as much as a headers, gaskets, injectors, ecu, pully, and radiator put together. If I'm really not happy (175 at the wheels keep my fingers crossed) then I guess I have to go the route and start to do a lot of nit picky stuff. In your honest opinion do you think it can hit 175whp with the these things:

Gasket kit for reliability3 Angle Vaulve JobDC headersNistune ECU370 injectors from a sr20Summit Racing radiatorElectric FansAllumium pully2.5 dynomax ExhaustSpec Flywheel and stage 2 clutch

P.S.

I guess I'm really slow but I just now noticed the creator of the thread I got inspiration from is you Bigvinnie lol.

Also if I cant hit my goals on the dyno ill probably go with cam shaft, new bearings and arp bolts, crank scrapers, and a head job port polish. Hopuflly I dont have to drop all that money though I really dont want to do a lot of internal work. It's a b**** and a whole lot of money. Also when you dynoed bigvinnie did you use 96 octane gas?

Modified by unahanaretsu at 1:19 AM 8/16/2009

You do lose efficiency having a pusher fan in the front but I don't think it is anywhere near 80%, and if you are using a thermostatic switch like you should be using, the Efan should be kicking on around 170~180* anyway.Don't waste your time on a three angle valve job for the KA it actually doesn't yield high numbers.Don't buy the ARP head bolts either there is a bad batch of these floating around because they are using chinese steel in place of the american steel. Stick with the OEM head bolts or go through MCmaster-CARR to find these bolts.I would get an aluminum flywheel over a crank pulley. Infact I would not change out the stock pulley just because it is meant to dampen the crank harmonics while an aftermarket aluminum one doesn't.Now as far as exhaust I actually regret not going with a 3 inch exhaust, I think it held back on some HP possibly 1 or 2 more HP to the wheels.In order to break $170 WHP on lower octane you will want to get a larger MAF, nake sure that you use either the G70 OBD2 MAF, or the N60 MAF (ECU tune required for the G70 and N60 if you are using a nistune stage 3 OBD1 ecu. Also on a dyno test that I performed my engine yeilded 3 more whp using iridium spark plugs over the stock platinums or coppers. Reason for this is because iridium plugs reduce fouling, this is from having the shortest electrod tips when compared to platinum or copper, and you don't have to gap them. They are also the coldest plugs to use and last for roughly 60,000 to 80,000 miles. Also iridium generates more spark on less amps than the platinums or coppers do. So there is no need to upgrade to an MSD ignition system.I think using the NISTUNE ecu and a good bin file you shouldne' have a problem reacign your goals of 175whp on 96 octane.

[DaniMike]

This is just a suggestion, but if you are going to be putting in new rings, why not go with higher comp. pistons? Or SOHC pistons? Just putting it out there, Good Luck!!

[chrismo240sx]

Hey Vinnie, i have a JWT ecu "upgrade" for my ka with the stock MAF. If i were to buy an N60 MAF would i need a tune or would the ECU adjust itself... and would there be any performance gains?

Current setup:

AEM IntakeOBX HeaderPulleyE-fan2.5 in Exhaust (BRM!!!)JWT ECU

[Bigvinnie]

JWT would have to retune it for $100. Yes there should be gains, and a higher rev range. But if it's JWT don't count to much on seeing any serious gains.

[unahanaretsu]

sohc pistons = higher compression = more fuel wasted no? This is just a car that is used for some spirited driving maybe weekend autox. I really want to keep Reliability and mpg first.

To big vinnie sorry i posted that wrong, its only 80% as efficient to use a pusher fan than a puller fan.

Colder plugs sound fantastic ill probably switch that and changing MAF sounds good too. I've ordered the gasket kit, headers, ecu board, and injectors, saving some money for the transmission stuff. Hopefully this car will hit the ground and run in about a months time. I seriously appreciate all your help bigvinnie. Lol I understand you must get like 20 questions like this a day.

[Bigvinnie]

sohc pistons = higher compression = more fuel wasted no? This is just a car that is used for some spirited driving maybe weekend autox. I really want to keep Reliability and mpg first.

I don't want to get to much on the subject so I will try to make it quick and to the point.

With high compression there are several factors that are involved that have to be calculated in order to make good HP numbers.

First problem is susceptibility to knock and ping. Cylinder temperature rises because air becomes hotter as it is being compressed. This hot effect can cause lower octanes to to pre-ignite, or auto ignite to early, also causes spark plugs to run hotter. Higher Octanes used for high compression doesn't necessarily mean that the engine will promote healthier HP numbers either. If the engine is constantly battling high EGT's then the engine could be fighting parasitic losses.

Then you have squish and quench area's both of these areas have been calculated by Nissan to be as efficient as possible. Changing the squish, or the quench drastically alters the efficiency of swirl, and atomization. The reason why the KA's DOHC piston is designed the way it is, is so that it has the most efficiency in the downward stroke for swirl. Changing this effect will alter the way the engine atomizes fuel to air within the short amount of time a mixture can occur before the power stroke occurs, there is still atomization occurring slightly after TDC in the compression stroke, and after ignition.

Now when adjusting squish and quench to increase high compression it is altering volumetric cc's of the cylinder chamber. A slightly lower CR engine would be more efficient than a higher compression ratio engine of the same boreXstroke because it has better use of cylinder chamber cc's. CAM timing and ignition timing for this reason becomes much more critical for higher compression engines.

You can manipulate cylinder pressure via high Octane rated at higher Kj's. Most standard street gasoline octane is rated at 44Kj because of ethanol blending. Ethanol you have to use more of it to make the same power approximately one third more, in order to equal more power than gasoline.So dilution of street fuel gasoline octanes that use ethanol will increase power. toulene and xylene although highly dangerous will infact dillute the percentage of ethanol and increase HP, since it's KJ is higher than that of gasoline and ethanol.Sunoco high octane 110 octane blend, and torco, are also good methods of diluting ethanol from the "street mixture" .Then there is the method of just setting up the engine to run purely on E85, a 9.5:1compression engine will run on E85 it's been an old fallacy to think that E85 is only meant for high compression engines. Using a gasoline wide band you would want your A/Fr calibrated around a 10.6:1 for stoich, standard gasoline on a wide band is 14.7:1 for stoich. There is slightly more power and cylinder pressure from ethanol when it is properly calibrated at 10.6:1, when compared to gasoline, it's properties have a low egt as well so a lot of power can be made using E85.

Not to mention higher compression usually demands more injector pulse width.

So in this case unless you have the blueprints to a GT3 KA I would leave the engine the way it is, unless you are an extremely good engineer that understands all of these principles involved to even mess with higher compression. Theres to many things at work from squish and quench, to atomization, to ignition timing, cam timing and fuel. I would seriously leave the engine the way it is unless you really know what you are doing.


Modified by Bigvinnie at 9:50 AM 8/19/2009

[unahanaretsu]

let me change that then

sohc pistons = higher compression = bigger headache

and 9.5:1 is already pretty high in itself

[Bigvinnie]

let me change that then

sohc pistons = higher compression = bigger headache

and 9.5:1 is already pretty high in itself

It's more than just a headache. If the engine is only going to yeild 10more whp on avg. Its not worth it, because it cost more to rebuild and add these pistons. It's the most expensive replacement for the least amount of yield.

CAMS are easyECU tuning is moderateBolt ons are even easy like larger TBEach of these instruments to tune are both cheaper, and less time consuming than dropping in a set of pistons that will probably only yield 10 more whp.

I mean in all reality its cheaper to mill a head to raise compression slightly then it is to drop in new pistons.

Now if your HP goals are for 30 to 40more wheel HP and the engine has been designed around the new compression characteristics then its worth it. If the KA won't make as much power as an F22c using high compression sohc pistons it isn't worth it.
Modified by Bigvinnie at 3:33 PM 8/19/2009