NA Build?

[Manaran]

Hey I got a 96 240sx and am just looking at my options. If I were to go NA I was trying to look at general hp gain. I am also trying to stay street legal in fairfax, VA so keep that in mind. -Intake: 5hp-headers: 10hp-exhaust: 10hp-JWT chip: 20hp

leaving me at around 200 HP probably a little bit less is this correct? I don't know much so just let me know.

Thank you

[chrismo240sx]

dude, um going NA is fine, but where are you coming up with those numbers from? The JWT ECU doesnt add 20hp To help you out, i have an all motor setup basically on my Ka with the JWT ECU ( all bolt-ons except cams) and there is no way i got 20hp from the ECU.

Basically that 200hp goal you were talking about.....maybe, maybe at the crank if youre lucky. But with just those simple little bolt-ons (I/H/E/ECU).....i'd say arund 160 to the wheels.

I never had my car dynoed yet, but if i had to venture a guess....id say i have around 165-175 whp.

Hope that helps!

[Manaran]

OO, I'm just thinking of numbers my bmw got when i had it. Also looking at chips for other cars since not much is given on 240sx chips.

[Ajax]

The thing to remember about performance gains is that they do not add up like you'd like them to. An intake is going to show peak gains in a different spot in the powerband than an ecu tune will. Likewise with cams vs header. Those mods together may get you 150whp.No one on NICO has shown a true 200whp NA KA on pump gas- not saying it isn't possible or even doesn't exist, but no one has shown one.

[glitched]

200whp not gonna happen on a budget.

I remember a thread on another forum of dyno proof of 200 crank hp. that basically centered around letting the ka breath, intake header exhaust and dyno tunning with a "chip" and timing changes

[Manaran]

Alright well thanks all, suppose I'll just start saving for a turbo, gotta get an LSD and suspension first, as well as fix the evil speedometer. The no abs is a bit bothersome to, but i guess i can pump away but I've never used a non abs on a track and it worries me a bit.

[-RJ-]

haha there you go, boost is the only way to go. I wanted to go all motor with my kade but when i did research about it, i can get almost 300whp on turbo than getting 170 whp with all motor.

If your motor is in good shape, you can get a t3/t4 turbo and get around 230whp on a stock motor at 8 lbs.

[Iceman00]

Boost is for bishez.The KA needs a real intake manifold, and Cams to make top end power. JWT or Crower V3's would do the trick.

Greaser on Freshalloy made a 210whp on a All motor KA, so it can be done.

[Ajax]

Boost is for bishez.The KA needs a real intake manifold, and Cams to make top end power. JWT or Crower V3's would do the trick.

Greaser on Freshalloy made a 210whp on a All motor KA, so it can be done.

link? does he have a dyno? what sort of engine management?

[-RJ-]

Boost is for bishez.The KA needs a real intake manifold, and Cams to make top end power. JWT or Crower V3's would do the trick.

Greaser on Freshalloy made a 210whp on a All motor KA, so it can be done.

but why would you want 210whp when you can have 400whp?

[Ajax]

but why would you want 210whp when you can have 400whp?

Because some people don't feel the need to compensate for other inadequacies? But seriously, I'm not sure what would be the point of 400hp in a car under 3000lbs, unless you put it on the track. This question has popped up every now and again- why shoot for 200 when you can do twice that for cheaper. And people say "to be different" or "because I don't like turbo".But honestly, if I can hit 180 whp with matching torque and responsiveness of NA, I'll be very happy with the results. I already have to be a little cautious on take off- I can't imagine what driving would be like in this car with more than double that.I don't know. I'm at work and probably shouldn't have opened this can of worms, I guess I just hate the turbo trolling.

[ss82480]

I'm with Ajax, while staying NA is "different", quite honestly I love the torque and responsive feel of the KA. It just seems that everyone these days are so quick to say "turbo that sumbish!" Unless you actually track your car, theres really not much need for say more than 150-200 at the wheels for this small car. All of this is simply my opinion of course.

And to the OP I have intake/header(straight pipe)/exhaust, underdrive pulley, lightweight flywheel, cold air intake, BC stage 2 cams, tuned SAFC(for what thats worth) also running z32 fuel filter with advanced timing. I am pushing right about 160whp on an s13, with the torque numbers just a pinch higher.

[Iceman00]

link? does he have a dyno? what sort of engine management?

Yeah, he had a Dyno. It was about 207whp and 200+wtq. Awesome. Check Freshalloy for "greaser" in the KA forums.

From what I remember, it was SOHC pistons, Intake, Custom header, Exhaust, BC v3's, And AEM EMS. He also had ITB, but tested a intake manifold with good results.

Xcessive offers a KA manifold that will wake up the top end, though you will lose low end.

[480sx]

Greaser on Freshalloy made a 210whp on a All motor KA, so it can be done.

He also droped like 5 grand+ doing it. AEM EMS, race gas, ITB's, just a stupid amount of work and money for... 200 hp..... You can do a 1500 dollar budget turbo build and hit 250ish hp with no problems.

N/A ka is a waist unless your doing a FCW crank build. The ka doesnt want to make power up top because of its half weighted crank.

[Iceman00]

He also droped like 5 grand+ doing it. AEM EMS, race gas, ITB's, just a stupid amount of work and money for... 200 hp..... You can do a 1500 dollar budget turbo build and hit 250ish hp with no problems.

N/A ka is a waist unless your doing a FCW crank build. The ka doesnt want to make power up top because of its half weighted crank.

Lets be honest here, you don't have to drop the coin he did to get close, and you know it.

[Ajax]

Okay, there it is. pump gas recorded 182 hp at the wheels. I've seen a few threads on getting 200hp with 100 octane or better. Everyone needs to keep this in mind!I'll be getting that Xcessive manifold this winter, and will try a few plenum sizes to see what difference we can make with that.

[480sx]

Lets be honest here, you don't have to drop the coin he did to get close, and you know it.

I am being honest here dude. You DO have to drop that kind of money. A KA with bolt ons isnt going to get you even 170 hp.

What you guys dont understand is this is NOT a freaken honda. The motor was not built to rev high. It was not designed with a fully counterweighted crank. It has a half counterweighted crank. Basically, what this means is that when the engine is at high rpm operation, crank vibrations and harmonics are really harsh. This eats your power up exponentially as you go up the RPM range. On every Ka dyno you can see this. Your TQ starts to take a serious dive after 5500 rpms, and your hp doesnt climb anywhere nearly as sharply as it would on a FCW motor. (honda, DSM, w/e)

Out of the 100's of Ka24De N/A builds, this is ONE GUY thats got over 200 hp. Everyone else has fallen far short of the 200 hp goal. The idea that your going to be able to duplicate his results without spending as much money as he has is absurd.

If you want to go for a N/A build, i would suggest a SOHC as it has much more room for a more aggressive cam.

Or, get a 1600+ dollar FCW crank for a Ka24de and rock on with your bad N/A self. Build a 10k rev limit head, and hit 300 hp with race gas and high comp pistons.

[Iceman00]

I am being honest here dude. You DO have to drop that kind of money. A KA with bolt ons isnt going to get you even 170 hp.

What you guys dont understand is this is NOT a freaken honda. The motor was not built to rev high. It was not designed with a fully counterweighted crank. It has a half counterweighted crank. Basically, what this means is that when the engine is at high rpm operation, crank vibrations and harmonics are really harsh. This eats your power up exponentially as you go up the RPM range. On every Ka dyno you can see this. Your TQ starts to take a serious dive after 5500 rpms, and your hp doesnt climb anywhere nearly as sharply as it would on a FCW motor. (honda, DSM, w/e)

Out of the 100's of Ka24De N/A builds, this is ONE GUY thats got over 200 hp. Everyone else has fallen far short of the 200 hp goal. The idea that your going to be able to duplicate his results without spending as much money as he has is absurd.

If you want to go for a N/A build, i would suggest a SOHC as it has much more room for a more aggressive cam.

Or, get a 1600+ dollar FCW crank for a Ka24de and rock on with your bad N/A self. Build a 10k rev limit head, and hit 300 hp with race gas and high comp pistons.

Completely false. Greaser Made this mch power on 3 things.Manifold: he used ITBCams: More aggressive than JWT and V2'sTuning: The EMS, and tuning time is what made this cost a lot.

He also had a mild porting job, SOHC pistons (Which he changed to 10.5:1 forged, because the SOHC ones had blowby issues)

You could duplicate his build, and get close with Half the money he spent, and for the Record, my Jwt powered KA redlined at 7000rpm, the same as Greaser's build. No issues. I agree though, a FCW crank would make a world of difference.

[480sx]

It doesnt even really seem like you know that much about his build man. It sounds like your just bandwagoning on a thread/idea you skimmed over and you think 200 hp is easy to get out of a N/A ka.

Im no expert on his build either, dont get me wrong. Find his build thread and link it so i can take a look again. IIRC, he had a fully built race head. He also had to try time and time again to break the 200 HP mark.

Almost every ka redlines at 7000, i never said there would be any problems. If you dyno it though, you will see what im talking about. TQ takes a hard dive after 5500 RPMs, and HP doesnt climb nearly as quick as it would with a honda. This is your crank vibrations/harmonics robbing power from the engine.

Also, were talking about Dyno HP which is kinda just an abstract number. Every dyno measures hp differently, and is really just a tuning tool. Real HP is measured by trap times+weight of the car at the strip.

Please find these other 200 hp N/A ka build threads and link them to this thread.

[Ajax]

Also, were talking about Dyno HP which is kinda just an abstract number. Every dyno measures hp differently, and is really just a tuning tool. Real HP is measured by trap times+weight of the car at the strip.

What?Dyno is the basic measuring tool for hp and torque. Times and speeds at the strip are affected by too many variables such as tires and gearing, wind, elevation, driver experience (or lack thereof). Not that they don't have value, mind you, but its just not a good way to judge the quality of an engine by itself. Some dynos measure differently than others, yes, but there are only a few types and they generally will give similar results between same models- Most dynojets will be comparable to each other. Clayton is the only one I can think of that gives statistically different numbersYes Greaser spent a lot of time on the dyno and went through several iterations of intake setups (I really just skimmed the thread- he used ITBs and 100 octane) and tuninghttp://forums.nicoclub.com/showthread.php?t=186114I'm looking for the other thread I read yesterday.There it is:sho...24190I obviously should have stayed out of this whole thing; I see that now.

[Ajax]

Ahh crap, those links don't work do they. I fail. I'll try to fix that.

[Ajax]

sho...24190What the..? why does NICO change the forum name? Internet owns me.

Here, I'll type it:http://formus.nicoclub.com/sho...24190

Nope it did it again. well I'm at a loss.I found the thread by googling "greaser_ ka"then went to the boardtracker link, and clicked on 200rwhp na ka- that should get you an 8page thread.

[Ajax]

Just found out on the other na thread- no linking to competing forums. So its not the internet as a whole that owned me, just NICO.I think a lot of the same info on that FA thread has been discussed on NICO as well FYI.

[Iceman00]

There is a guy on the 240sx Forums with a N/A build on pump gas, crower V3's and damn amazing head work, running Emanage Ultimate, as well as excessive's Intake manifold

Last I heard, without tuning the cams, he was at 187whp. When he gets the cam timing dailed in, expect over 200whp easy.

And greaser didn't even have a race head port job. I kept up with his project, every thread of it.

[Ajax]

I'm looking for some decent gains with the intake. I'm only running AFC NEO, but I've got a lot of internals done. AMS built the engine.

[liquid_cool]

Boost is for bishez.The KA needs a real intake manifold, and Cams to make top end power. JWT or Crower V3's would do the trick.

Greaser on Freshalloy made a 210whp on a All motor KA, so it can be done.

Iceman makes a point...as far as cheep..its not gona happen..im trying a ka24de N/A build myself...its been nothing but an adventure in finding deals..it can be done thou.....there is an article about a ka24de that was 190ish at the wheels..and then converted to turbo with over 700+ whp..scary....before you turbo man..think about your gaol for the car...are you a drag racer?...then just get headstuds and spray!..cheep hsp!...are you a drifter..you dont need super hps for drifting..just a love for it...or do you touge?..you might want a turbo there for straits and after the corrner..there is alot to think about...allso tuning a cars motor you have to consider what rpm range your tuning for?...low..low to mid..mid to high..high end?..the possibilitys are endless...stay N/A for now..figure out what style you prefer..then upgrade for power later.

thats my advice. Liquid_coolhttp://www.myspace.com/liquid_cool_ka24de

[Bigvinnie]

He also droped like 5 grand+ doing it. AEM EMS, race gas, ITB's, just a stupid amount of work and money for... 200 hp.....

If you ask me Greaser was into boosting engines and his concept of head porting was a bit on the excessive side for intake velocity. His engine would of probably made better numbers with just a slight 1 mm port increase to the head. Instead of porting and extruding the crap out of it.(My Personal Opinion)

You don't need an AEM EMS to make that kind of power, you also don't need race gas. It won't cost $5000. You could probably get away with a 200WHP set up for roughly 3 grand and very little head work needed.

N/A ka is a waist unless your doing a FCW crank build. The ka doesnt want to make power up top because of its half weighted crank.

The KA engine does O.K though. I've made my stock block rev happy to 6500RPM peak power rather than the stock peak power of 5800 rpm just by changing to the N60 MAF and changing the K value that the ecu will think it responds to under load.Sure a lighter fully counter weighted crank would be better harmonically for that happy rev place and additional HP to about 7000 maybe 8000peak, but me like most people that do NA KA's are just frugal, cheap SOB's .

[Bigvinnie]

Also, were talking about Dyno HP which is kinda just an abstract number. Every dyno measures hp differently, and is really just a tuning tool. Real HP is measured by trap times+weight of the car at the strip.

Dyno tuning isn't abstract . Dyno tuning machines use an equation to give a statistical average that is based off the 5200/5200 RPM cross over. In reality does any engine truely make a torque and HP crossover at exactly 5200/5200 RPM... NO but it is a guidline to put an engine measurement within the realm to satifactory tune an engine and show comparisons from losses and gains.If it was abstract there simply wouldn't be any type of mathmatical equation to follow, it would just be all over ther place, well like an abstract painting....

The only variable that I could see as being abstract is drive train degredation losses which are in accurate from car to car.

[Ajax]

Thanks Vinnie!Did you see the engine in person, or just follow the threads? I don't remember where Greaser is from.

[Bigvinnie]

I followed the threads. I also replied. I got nothing but bashing in that thread from guys that are boost heads... They may be book smart and build good turboed engines, but to tell you the truth they don't know sh#t about basic flow characteristics on velocity.

Greaser ported his head a little more than he needed to which probably cut down on power. With out proper velocity to the cylinders the engine only starves itself as it consumes more fuel on larger injectors, causing more of a choking effect to the cylinder chambers. He could of left the head alone used larger lift and duration cams, possibly even larger valves and would of had better results than that port work he did...

High compression doesn't mean that you should increase port sizes further than what OEM stock sizes has to offer. The design was meant to take care of 2.4 liter displacement, not compression. Velocity flow rates barely change under high compression, infact there less velocity if the cams remain in stock OEM placement because higher compression decreases cc's, so to port the crap out of a head makes no sence to me.. In all; this would mean just more retard to cams where stock placement would be rather than modify and porting a head more than it should be. Since now you need to increase volumetric cylinder efficiency to the highest point of the cam lift and it's duration. Alot of people think that higher compression equals more power with porting wich is just blatant and false information.... Now if his KA could have reved to 10,000 RPM, then I would see why it would be important to port and extrude more than what stock diameter sizes have to offer because then you are multiplying RPM to liter displacement which is what is required for larger diameter port and extruded sizes from stock.

I've helped on a few builds that were just minor.... Let me say this to make it clear MINOR port and polish within 1mm increments and made better numbers on less compression than greasers build...

Forums are all hype man........


Modified by Bigvinnie at 11:17 PM 9/9/2008