My super stealthy Super 60

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silverkaturbo
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:00 pm
Car: 91 Nissan 240sx

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I don't post on here very much but I just thought I'd share what I've accomplished so far over the summer especially since ill prob be needing some assistance in the weeks to come. I recently had what I thought to be a timing chain nightmare when attempting a cam swap but finally figured out i had just had the dizzy off a little. But then after gettin it running my afr's were jumping between really rich and really lean leading me to think somethin with the cams was still off so I put stockers back in to find out is was just a bad o2 sensor. Got that straightened out just in time to smoke the second turbo I've had on this thing. First one was a ruptured wastegate vacuum line overboosting my t25. But this one Im fairly certain it was a result of the oil i neglected to change for waaay to long; i guess ball bearings dont like that...

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Since I had to tear it apart, upgrading was a must but options were limited to use with my bottom mount ssac with a s14 t28. I didnt have the money for a new manifold and downpipe but I did have enough for a couple flanges so bottom mount t3 it is. Id seen it done before and there was plenty of room for what I needed, although fitting the wastegate somewhere was a pita.

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Yes, that is a Bob the Builder toothbrush^. But what is more important is what i used it to clean up. I just trolled ebay for something used, cheap, not too worn out aaand t3 flanged 250-300 whp capable and ended up with this t3 super 60 with the .48 exh a/r. Turbonetics claims theyre good for 300-325 max up to 22 psi (seems scary), so yea its still on the small side but I was anxious and had to settle for something with my budget. No shaft play, but did look a little dirty/oily on the exhaust side but I was assured it was good and didnt smoke... but either it or my motor is starting to smoke now. I'm bettin on my stock 220,000 mi motor though since it does it at idle too.

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I wish I would have taken more pics in the process, but basically I just really revamped my ebay mani. I cut between the runners and pounded more weld onto the existing joints. Then I cut the t2 flange off. This gave acess to the collector of the mani where I cut the hole for the new external gate. I ported out as much as I could in there, that stainless just seemed unbelievably tough. ThenI welded a very small extension just to get a good angle for the gate, and then finished with the new t3 flange. Prob not the best placement since my bmc is now kinda surrounded with heaters, but Im runnin out of room down there. The first pic shows my little heat shield that kind of cradles it now trying to cope with it.

And now after ALL of this my car is smokin like a biatch and I got some wicked rattles getting worse. i think its timing chain slack; it comes from that area and only does it at 2.5-3k anywhere else its silent, but like I said 220k with the last 20k or so boosted; so I'm impressed thus far to say the least. But I have recently acquired something to take care of all of this... :woot:
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The goal is to get as much done before classes start since I will only have some weekends to spend with it after. So more to come...


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WDRacing
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Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
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I also wish you had taken more pics...

Let us know how she does.

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silverkaturbo
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:00 pm
Car: 91 Nissan 240sx

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Bad news... Wouldn't you know it just as soon as Im starting to feel comfortable and trusting of this new setup and post it all up on here, the turbo is not doin so hot. Yea I took a chance and bought it used and i thought it would be ok since it had almost no shaft play, but it started smokin worse and now its toast after logging about 1000 miles on it at 8psi. I was hopin no fins touched so i could rebuild it myself and not need it balanced cuz I didnt want to have to pay to ship this weight out somewhwere and although there are a few reputable diesel shops nearby, I doubt anyplace around north central indiana provides this turbo balancing service; but I got it pulled out and there was definite contact. It was a blast while it lasted though. 8psi from this had noticeably more kick to it than the 10 from my t28 and spools almost as quickly too.

Camera's not the best but you can see where the scrapes are
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And on the turbine side there are visible "cleaner" spots
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And since it will be a couple weeks til I have the funds to put into this and the spare motor I just got, Im just havin my buddy cut a t3 and a 5bolt flange flange since he has access to a plasma cutter and ill tie it all up with some flex pipe and turn down the injectors for now.

But since I know im going to need this rebalanced and now I have a straight t3 and also a t4 layin around, Im considering maybe a diy hybrid.

Maybe Im just pissin in the wind here but awhile back I got this Airesearch (garrett) to4b turbo made for international. I looked up the part number and confirmed that it is used on all sorts of different diesels. Tag says its a T04B25. Sure, it has an exhaust housing so big that it will haunt the nightmares of your children with a 1.15 a/r, but the cold side is a/r .60 which i believe is similar to my super 60's cold side. Says m10 near the compressor outlet too, not sure what that means. And It does have a little shaft play, but the fins are all in good shape on it unlike my super 60. And a little lag doesn't bother me too much so long as the payoff is decent. So do you think it would be worth the trying out this t4 compressor wheel, housing, backing plate on my t3. Or should i just go for a straight rebuild and try to find a new 60 trim wheel on the t3? Also how critical is slight contact on the exhaust side; still useable???

t4 on the left
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Also, since its back out now, here are some more of the manifold. This time im prob gonna add some support rods from the runners to the collector since I meant to do that before, just forgot the first time around. Also gonna blast and hi temp powder coat it to match the intake mani i just did for my spare. Ill post some pics of my spare motor torn down later.
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WDRacing
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Thanks for posting up the new pics of the modified manifold. Sorry about the turbo, was it getting enough oil?

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silverkaturbo
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:00 pm
Car: 91 Nissan 240sx

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Im pretty sure it had enough oil. It was getting enough to smoke out my exhaust while in boost. And Im using the JGS oil line kit with the same .063 restrictor that i used on my t25 for 2 years of daily driving with no issues. I just went with what the jgs website said which stated if your oil is any more than 50psi (mine read a little over 60 if I remember right) under load to use it. Maybe this turbo needed more? Or maybe it was just already on its way out when I bought it.

My pressure sending unit is on my oil filter sandwich block right next to the feed for the turbo, so shouldnt that give an accurate reading for what psi the turbo is seeing?? Cuz I really dont want to ruin it again after I rebuild it.

Any thoughts on using this t04b cold side with my t3 hot side???
I tore them apart and everything bolts up fine.

So I thought about rockin it like this and just grabbing one of the nicer rebuild kits with the 360* thrust bearing and sending it out to get balanced. I found this place, gpopshop, that does it for $65. Seems kinda steep and I still need to call a couple diesel shops around here to see if they can do it, but shipping wont be as bad as I thought since they say they just need the wheels, shaft, and thrust parts. Worth a shot? Or waste of time?
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WDRacing
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DIY hybrid setup....sounds good to me brah.

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JDizzle
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Slight contact is no good, imagine what kind of damage is going ensue when it's spinning at 75,000 rpm's. I would recommend purchasing a new turbo or repairing the Turbonetics turbo. Please do not try to do a home rebuild, send it off to a professional. Most people think you can simply swap in a parts kit, get it balanced and you're good to go. There are tolerances and clearances that also need to be check. Although I hate turbochargers.com's owner, his employee Mark (turbo rebuilder) knows his s***. Give them a call, they are direct with Turbonetics and might be able to repair your turbo on the cheap.

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uber240times2
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Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:16 pm
Car: 1989 240sx hatch
2003 350z
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I don't care about anything right now other than seeing that Bob the builder toothbrush. I cannot find it, and it is angering me to an extreme amount. :mad:

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WDRacing
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JDizzle wrote:Slight contact is no good, imagine what kind of damage is going ensue when it's spinning at 75,000 rpm's. I would recommend purchasing a new turbo or repairing the Turbonetics turbo. Please do not try to do a home rebuild, send it off to a professional. Most people think you can simply swap in a parts kit, get it balanced and you're good to go. There are tolerances and clearances that also need to be check. Although I hate turbochargers.com's owner, his employee Mark (turbo rebuilder) knows his s***. Give them a call, they are direct with Turbonetics and might be able to repair your turbo on the cheap.
Um, as far as parts that can be assembled wrong where tolerances are concerned...there are really none. I have rebuilt several and not even had them balanced. Balancing is the huge player because it's the vibration that kills the bushings or ball bearings. I've simply installed the parts according to index marks made prior to removal and have had lots of success.

I wouldn't use a compressor wheel that has made contact with anything, but I'd swap out the bushings without thinking twice. If it's getting balanced then I see no problem at all with a DIY rebuild. It's no more intense of a job then say rebuilding the motor. Yeah it's easier to send it to a shop but people do it themselves all the time. When done correctly, there will be no issue. For the price of a rebuild you can damn near buy a new turbo.

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JDizzle
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Car: 1995 Nissan 240SX

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There are tolerances and clearances that need to be checked. For example, in an engine that has spun a rod bearing. Would you not have the crank machined and use oversize bearings?

When a turbo fails like this, it's usually only because of a couple of reason. Lack of lubrication or contaminated oil are two of the most common. Either one will damage the turbine shaft. Lack of lubrication (bluing on shaft) generally leads to you warping the shaft and it's no longer 100% straight but you can machine them to be straight again. Oil contamination will scare or scratch the shaft but that can also be machined. Both cases you will need to go with over size bearings.

The piston rings (seals) have a gap that needs to be checked just like the piston rings in an engine. If the gap is too big then you will have oil leaking. Each turbo has a different tolerance that you can check with a feeler gauge.

If you've rebuilt turbos without checking these and it worked, consider yourself lucky.

Balancing is also key when you replace key components like the turbine shaft or compressor wheel. If you're just swapping in new bearing you can get away with marking the parts so they go back together in the exact same orientation they were in.

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WDRacing
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JDizzle wrote:There are tolerances and clearances that need to be checked. For example, in an engine that has spun a rod bearing. Would you not have the crank machined and use oversize bearings?

When a turbo fails like this, it's usually only because of a couple of reason. Lack of lubrication or contaminated oil are two of the most common. Either one will damage the turbine shaft. Lack of lubrication (bluing on shaft) generally leads to you warping the shaft and it's no longer 100% straight but you can machine them to be straight again. Oil contamination will scare or scratch the shaft but that can also be machined. Both cases you will need to go with over size bearings.

The piston rings (seals) have a gap that needs to be checked just like the piston rings in an engine. If the gap is too big then you will have oil leaking. Each turbo has a different tolerance that you can check with a feeler gauge.

If you've rebuilt turbos without checking these and it worked, consider yourself lucky.

Balancing is also key when you replace key components like the turbine shaft or compressor wheel. If you're just swapping in new bearing you can get away with marking the parts so they go back together in the exact same orientation they were in.
You're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. You see things in black and white, where I see everything as a various shade of gray. Not that I need to qualify my statements, but I do have 13 years of experience in rotating objects. I was a helicopter mechanic in the USAF and have used all sorts of vibration analysis software and hardware. I've had balancing specific training and can tune everything from gearboxes to rotor heads.

What I meant when I said things can be rebuilt is that once they're inspected you can rebuild the turbo and then have it balanced. After said balancing the turbo will work great for quit a bit less money. If I take apart a turbo and things are worn I replace them. I've had probably 25 turbo's taken apart in my time tooling around and none has any shaft warpage. Some had been scored and some had been over temped but none have been warped. I'm betting anything that has been warped has exploded and doesn't even have the exhaust wheel attached anymore.

Also, if a shaft is warped, it's tossed not machined.

I hold DIY people to a high standard. Not every Joe Blow can rebuild a motor correctly or take apart a turbo and reassemble it. It takes skill and knowledge. But not alot and most decent mechanics could easily do it with the proper tools and a couple junkyard turbo's to practice on. I cut my teeth on turbo's over in Japan, so burnt up turbo's were lying around. Taking one apart without having to worry about putting it back together makes it easy to learn ;) Point being, if you don't know what you're doing then don't do it. Everything you mentioned that requires checking is right online. When I say something can be done, I don't mean to say any waterhead can rebuild something that spins at 300,000 rpm.

A digital caliper is cheap at harbor freight btw, makes it real easy to spec things out. If it's damaged buy a new one, if it's not then rebuild it. It's a personal choice whether you're going to rebuild it yourself or send it in. I'm a DIY guy and I love taking things apart and fixing them myself. I've learned a ton by using this method. Yes I've been burned on more then one occasion, but knowledge is power. In the end it may take a little longer but the job always gets done.

WD

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silverkaturbo
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:00 pm
Car: 91 Nissan 240sx

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Well I got the t3 turbine shaft pulled today and it doesnt look as good as I was hoping either. A couple bent fins and there is some bluing on the shaft, but ONLY where the bearings ride. So def not enough to warp a shaft of that size, but still prob not a good idea to use due to the fins. So I guess it must have been an oiling issue and Ill try it without the restrictor next time. :gotme

Paying someone else for a rebuild is out of the question though. Especially when they advertise prices starting at $275 for basic bearings and seals only! I didnt even pay that much for the entire turbo in the first place. Ive always seen it as "If someone else can do it, so can I with the right info" as long as no special tools are needed (balancing, boring, machining).

This really really blows since I just set this mani up for this turbo and the downpipe I made was to match this goofy big 5 bolt style outlet flange so I'd really like to stick with this exhaust side. I really didnt want to drop more than 300 into the turbo part of this motor again so its either rebuild, or try ro find another used replacement I guess. Unless you know of any screamin deals right now for somethin new and trustworthy???

So I've been trolling for a new turbine/shaft for cheap with little success. I'm assuming any T3 shaft will work if the wheel is the same diameter as the old one, right? Thanks for all your input guys.

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silverkaturbo
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:00 pm
Car: 91 Nissan 240sx

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Well i found this and thought about using it since I know that the turbine will be the correct size for the housing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... MEWAX%3AIT

This way I dont have to be guessing buying a new turbine alone hoping its the right fit and wont have to risk buying a used t3 just for parts to find that it might have chewed up fins too. Its got a larger ar but I think im okay with the tradeoffs. Then I can put a rebuild on what I got with the t4 cold side and I found someone that can balance it for me pretty cheap. So maybe I can get away with rebuilding this thing for around $250. Sound like a good alternative??

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silverkaturbo
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:00 pm
Car: 91 Nissan 240sx

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So I scrapped the idea of rebuilding one of the turbos I already have since it would cost about the same amount as just buyin another turbo. So heres the new goods.

Its a Master Power (i guess its better than chinese ebay) T3/T4 60 trim .63 a/r stage 3. Dude said it had normal shaft play for a used turbo, but I honestly cant feel any at all and its a lot cleaner than the last used turbo I bought so Im thinkin I got a good one this time.

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And some Bosch 50 lb injectors

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Also got a z32 maf but i prob not gonna even worry about upgrading the injectors and maf part of it til I got it running solid with the rebuilt motor and stuff from my old setup


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