I've been struggling with what to buy for my suspension upgrade.
The only part I'm 100% sold on is the Koni Sport shocks (AKA Koni Yellow's). These should be about $520 shipped.
I'm thinking of upgrading to a pilllowball strut mount for both the front and rear, but I've yet to confirm that there's one that will work with the Koni's.
I'm going to get new dust boots for both front and rear. My front's are definitely torn, and the rears are probably deteriorating. These are probably gonna run around $120 total for OE...ouch.
I'm also still struggling with which springs to get. I'm not really interested in excessive lowering, but I want a stiffer than stock LINEAR spring. I've been curious about KGMM springs, but haven't found anyone who sells them in the states.
So, my questions...
1) Has anyone had experience pairing Koni Sport's with pillowball mounts? In the Cusco thread, Auto-X 240has pointed out that the Cusco rear plates don't work with the Koni's. I have a feeling that the JIC plates won't work either.
2) Any experience with KGMM springs? Does anyone know where to get them?
My Planned Suspension Setup - Redux
Just get some better bushings for the rear top mounts...that's what I did. Ground-Control will send them to you for free. I used Tein PBM's (b/c of price) on the fronts. I am using KYB Buzz Spec struts btw (I returned my Koni's b/c of the rear adjustment issue).
Have you thought about using a Ground Control setup? They have linear springs and you can order them to whatever s/r's you want. Height adjustable means the ability to corner balance as well.
As for the boots, make sure your factory boots fit under the aftermarket springs before spending all that money. I know on my setup, they don't and I've heard of them not fitting on other people's setups as well. Good luck.
Have you thought about using a Ground Control setup? They have linear springs and you can order them to whatever s/r's you want. Height adjustable means the ability to corner balance as well.
As for the boots, make sure your factory boots fit under the aftermarket springs before spending all that money. I know on my setup, they don't and I've heard of them not fitting on other people's setups as well. Good luck.
The GC's are sleeves with custom Eibach springs, right?
I'm not really sold on sleeve coilovers. Also, I notice that the GC camber plates require modification of the strut tower, which I don't really feel comfortable with.
I *could* get some TEIN HA's + the Tein PBM's, but I don't really need the height adjustability of a true coilover. I've also heard of some corrosion problems with the HA's, and we get terrible winters in PA.
I've sent an email to Tein, so I'll be curious to see if they email me any info on the Tein mounts and compatibility with OE and other aftermarket struts.
As for springs, I'm looking for something with approx. 1.5" drop and stiffer than stock spring rate. I'd imagine that a spring that was too stiff could easily lead to loss of control on a bumpy road.
I'm not really sold on sleeve coilovers. Also, I notice that the GC camber plates require modification of the strut tower, which I don't really feel comfortable with.
I *could* get some TEIN HA's + the Tein PBM's, but I don't really need the height adjustability of a true coilover. I've also heard of some corrosion problems with the HA's, and we get terrible winters in PA.
I've sent an email to Tein, so I'll be curious to see if they email me any info on the Tein mounts and compatibility with OE and other aftermarket struts.
As for springs, I'm looking for something with approx. 1.5" drop and stiffer than stock spring rate. I'd imagine that a spring that was too stiff could easily lead to loss of control on a bumpy road.
-
Auto-X 240
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:58 am
- Car: SCCA autocross
- Contact:
H&R makes a spring for 240s that lower the car 1.5-2 inches. They're a high quality spring. You are right that a stiff spring can cause you to bounce around a lot on a bumpy road but a lowering spring like these or Eibachs and Tein are not that stiff. If you want some more info on different brands of springs send me a PM or an email and I'll try to answer all of your questions.
I believe the ones on Tirerack are KYB boots. Has anyone ever compared them to the OE boots?
BTW, I'm now leaning towards the Koni Sport's teamed up with some sort of pillowball mounts and some Suspension Techniques springs.
The ST springs are a fairly stiff, linear-rate spring. The drop on an S13 is supposed to be around 1.3". maybe a bit more. They seem to be just what I'm looking for.
I've emailed Tein about the pillowball mounts. They probably won't be able to tell me if they'll fit Koni shocks, but it's worth a try. It sounds like Cusco and JIC won't fit on the front and rear (the Cusco will work on the fronts).
BTW, I'm now leaning towards the Koni Sport's teamed up with some sort of pillowball mounts and some Suspension Techniques springs.
The ST springs are a fairly stiff, linear-rate spring. The drop on an S13 is supposed to be around 1.3". maybe a bit more. They seem to be just what I'm looking for.
I've emailed Tein about the pillowball mounts. They probably won't be able to tell me if they'll fit Koni shocks, but it's worth a try. It sounds like Cusco and JIC won't fit on the front and rear (the Cusco will work on the fronts).
They will tell you that they won't fit anything but Tein dampers if they respond at all. For the front though, you should be OK. If I were you, I'd stop worrying about the rears and get those bushings from GC I was talking about.
What don't you like about Ground-Control coilovers? You'd be suprised how many race-cars run GC's with custom valved Konis and other shocks. The GC's give you the option of changing spring rates cheaply and easily and the option of corner balance. But I wouldn't reccomend their Camber Plates; they cost too much money. Teins are the cheapest...I got mine for $160.
What don't you like about Ground-Control coilovers? You'd be suprised how many race-cars run GC's with custom valved Konis and other shocks. The GC's give you the option of changing spring rates cheaply and easily and the option of corner balance. But I wouldn't reccomend their Camber Plates; they cost too much money. Teins are the cheapest...I got mine for $160.
-
Auto-X 240
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:58 am
- Car: SCCA autocross
- Contact:
I'm not so sure that the GC's are right for me for a few reasons. I'm not particularly comfortable with the concept of the sleeve coilover. I'm sure the GC setup is good, but I'm still somehow wary of it. It's probably not a logical thing, but I can't shake it.Dori Dori wrote:They will tell you that they won't fit anything but Tein dampers if they respond at all.
Heh...yeah, I'd imagine they'd rather have me buy a nice set of Tein coilovers to go with those affordable mounts.They've yet to return my email.
What don't you like about Ground-Control coilovers? You'd be suprised how many race-cars run GC's with custom valved Konis and other shocks.
I'm also not really sure that I would make use of the adjustability of a coilover. For a bit more than the cost of the Koni's and GC's, I could get a set of Tein's. Realistically, I probably won't ever get a chance to run my car at the track. For a street setup, I just don't see myself adjusting ride height very often.
This is a tough decision for me. I definitely want to improve the handling of my car, but I also want to keep this thing streetable. As poor as the roads are in PA, I could easily myself and my car's chassis to pieces with a setup that's too stiff. I've got an OK budget for this (approx. $1000-1200), so I want to dit right.
I really appreciate all the input you guys have given me. It makes me proud to be a NICO member. There's definitely something to be said for informative, well-written and flame-free posts!
Well, I've definately spent more on my setup than the cost of some coilovers and for a little more, I could have purchased more expensive coilovers (the money wasn't an issue for me). I wanted something that doesn't come along with any Japanese coilover I've ever tested...comfort.
IMHO, while springs do play a large role in ride comfort, dampening plays an equally if not larger role in it. I had a set of Tein RA's on my last car. The ride was just too rough. I have friends with setups like HA's and Jic's, and they were all too rough. Until I rode in a car with g/c's and Koni's, I never thought the dampers were the issue, I thought it was the high spring rates.
My girlfriends car has g/c's and Koni's...her spring rates are only slightly lower than my RA's were, but her ride is so much better. Lower the settings on the struts and the ride acually changes...something that didn't happen on the RA's; they seemed to always be uber-stiff. Raise the level of the Koni's though and the car's track-ready! That's why I originally bought the Konis...until you mentioned to me how the rears adjust (I think it was you...thanks if it was).
I fear that my KYB Buzz specs will be just as stiff as coilover dampers though. The fact that the box was littered with 'For Circuit Use' and that they are short stroke worries me. I bought them b/c normal KYB AGX's don't tend to do well with drops lower than 1~1.5" and b/c of the bump-stop issue w/ lowered s13's (the Buzz specs have a shorter shock body). I should be installing them this weekend, so I'll post a review if I do.
One last thing, I like you was never very fond of coilover sleeves. The concept never really sat right with me either, even though I had no experiance with them. Until I spent a little time at the race tracks and I saw what people were running that is. I was shocked at the number of GC users. I would have guessed that everyone (especially b/c of all the money most of these guys have) had some kind of exotic coilovers, but many of them were simply running re-valved, custom, or just regular off the shelf struts with a set of g/c sleeves/springs! I was really sold when I spent some time at a local race team/shop called speed source where a friend of mine worked and I saw their car's suspension setups consisted of custom struts and g/c's! We are talking couple hundred thousand dollar race car Porsche GT3's here! And these guys win a lot of races!
Anyway, I'm rambling now. Hope my opinions didn't make your decision any tougher. :pface
IMHO, while springs do play a large role in ride comfort, dampening plays an equally if not larger role in it. I had a set of Tein RA's on my last car. The ride was just too rough. I have friends with setups like HA's and Jic's, and they were all too rough. Until I rode in a car with g/c's and Koni's, I never thought the dampers were the issue, I thought it was the high spring rates.
My girlfriends car has g/c's and Koni's...her spring rates are only slightly lower than my RA's were, but her ride is so much better. Lower the settings on the struts and the ride acually changes...something that didn't happen on the RA's; they seemed to always be uber-stiff. Raise the level of the Koni's though and the car's track-ready! That's why I originally bought the Konis...until you mentioned to me how the rears adjust (I think it was you...thanks if it was).
I fear that my KYB Buzz specs will be just as stiff as coilover dampers though. The fact that the box was littered with 'For Circuit Use' and that they are short stroke worries me. I bought them b/c normal KYB AGX's don't tend to do well with drops lower than 1~1.5" and b/c of the bump-stop issue w/ lowered s13's (the Buzz specs have a shorter shock body). I should be installing them this weekend, so I'll post a review if I do.
One last thing, I like you was never very fond of coilover sleeves. The concept never really sat right with me either, even though I had no experiance with them. Until I spent a little time at the race tracks and I saw what people were running that is. I was shocked at the number of GC users. I would have guessed that everyone (especially b/c of all the money most of these guys have) had some kind of exotic coilovers, but many of them were simply running re-valved, custom, or just regular off the shelf struts with a set of g/c sleeves/springs! I was really sold when I spent some time at a local race team/shop called speed source where a friend of mine worked and I saw their car's suspension setups consisted of custom struts and g/c's! We are talking couple hundred thousand dollar race car Porsche GT3's here! And these guys win a lot of races!
Anyway, I'm rambling now. Hope my opinions didn't make your decision any tougher. :pface
-
Auto-X 240
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:58 am
- Car: SCCA autocross
- Contact:
Badmojo, if you don't think you'll ever want to change your ride height then don't waste your money on a set of teins or whatever else. From what you are saying I think that the springs Teins come with will be too stiff for your liking. The suspension techniques springs you've mentioned as well as H&R and Eibach will all suit what you want, a lowered stance and a comfortable ride.
I live around New Orleans. Believe me there are no worse roads in the country than here. Everything sinks here because there is no bedrock, only sediment from the river. Anyway, get the softer spring setups and the konis and you'll probably be happy. Unless of course you do try some performance driving like at an autocross, for example. Then you will want the ability to adjust ride height and a stiffer spring. I've ridden in a car with JIC FLT-A2's and it felt good to me. But I can't see paying that kind of money for a shock that is only rebound adjustable. Most any of these off the shelf coilover setups feel comfortable to me since my springs are 500lb front and 375lb rear.
Are you sure you'll never want to try something like autocross with your car? It's the cheapest and most fun way I know of safely finding the limits of your car and your ability.
I live around New Orleans. Believe me there are no worse roads in the country than here. Everything sinks here because there is no bedrock, only sediment from the river. Anyway, get the softer spring setups and the konis and you'll probably be happy. Unless of course you do try some performance driving like at an autocross, for example. Then you will want the ability to adjust ride height and a stiffer spring. I've ridden in a car with JIC FLT-A2's and it felt good to me. But I can't see paying that kind of money for a shock that is only rebound adjustable. Most any of these off the shelf coilover setups feel comfortable to me since my springs are 500lb front and 375lb rear.
Are you sure you'll never want to try something like autocross with your car? It's the cheapest and most fun way I know of safely finding the limits of your car and your ability.
I was the one who mentioned that the rear Koni Sport's can't be adjusted while still on the car. For me, this isn't going to be much of an issue. I plan on adjusting the Koni's a few times until I get the proper amount of dampering for my springs.Dori Dori wrote:Lower the settings on the struts and the ride acually changes...something that didn't happen on the RA's; they seemed to always be uber-stiff. Raise the level of the Koni's though and the car's track-ready! That's why I originally bought the Konis...until you mentioned to me how the rears adjust (I think it was you...thanks if it was).
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Auto-X 240 "]Badmojo, if you don't think you'll ever want to change your ride height then don't waste your money on a set of teins or whatever else.
I can't see myself auto-x'ing in the near future, and I probably won't have much need to change my ride height. I still can't shake my feelings about the GC (despite the evidence of their quality) and I do agree that a quality coilover would be a waste of money.
It feels like a quality shock/spring combo would serve me better than entry level coilovers.
I *was* thinking some more about the Suspension Techniques springs, and they do seem a bit soft. Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what Dori Dori mentioned, a quality damper like the Koni Sport should be able to handle a much higher spring rate. I recall reading that the Koni's can at least handle in the 450-500 lb/in.
As far as stiffer springs go, do you have any experience with RS-R springs? The RS-R Race springs are 279 lb/in front and 251 lb/in rear. They only have one rate listed, so they *appear* to be linear. The advertised drop is 35mm front and 30mm rear. It looks like RS-R is going to be selling their products in the US again, but I'm not sure if anyone is carrying them yet. Perhaps I'll ask around here on NICO.
BTW, my girlfriend and I love visiting New Orleans. We try to get there every other year. We've got friends in the area and always have a great time. Now that you mention it, the roads there *were* kinda rotten.
I can't see myself auto-x'ing in the near future, and I probably won't have much need to change my ride height. I still can't shake my feelings about the GC (despite the evidence of their quality) and I do agree that a quality coilover would be a waste of money.
It feels like a quality shock/spring combo would serve me better than entry level coilovers.
I *was* thinking some more about the Suspension Techniques springs, and they do seem a bit soft. Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what Dori Dori mentioned, a quality damper like the Koni Sport should be able to handle a much higher spring rate. I recall reading that the Koni's can at least handle in the 450-500 lb/in.
As far as stiffer springs go, do you have any experience with RS-R springs? The RS-R Race springs are 279 lb/in front and 251 lb/in rear. They only have one rate listed, so they *appear* to be linear. The advertised drop is 35mm front and 30mm rear. It looks like RS-R is going to be selling their products in the US again, but I'm not sure if anyone is carrying them yet. Perhaps I'll ask around here on NICO.
BTW, my girlfriend and I love visiting New Orleans. We try to get there every other year. We've got friends in the area and always have a great time. Now that you mention it, the roads there *were* kinda rotten.
I am an advocate for height adjustment b/c of the ability to corner balance. Since that's not important to you, forget about the GC's or any other coilover. That's their entire purpose for existance.
The problem though is that you want really stiff, linear springs. Try contacting the companies that supply linear springs for our car and ask if you can order custom spring rates. All your problems will be solved if just one of them can. If not, you may be stuck looking into GC's or other coilovers.
The problem though is that you want really stiff, linear springs. Try contacting the companies that supply linear springs for our car and ask if you can order custom spring rates. All your problems will be solved if just one of them can. If not, you may be stuck looking into GC's or other coilovers.
I may hold off on the custom wound springs if I can find some more information on the RS*R "race" springs. The spring rates appear to be pretty high (approaching that of the Tein HA's) and the drop isn't too much. I'm gonna send them an email and find out if they are linear rated springs, or if they're just showing the highest rate of a progressive spring.Dori Dori wrote:The problem though is that you want really stiff, linear springs. Try contacting the companies that supply linear springs for our car and ask if you can order custom spring rates.
So, as it stands I've got...
1) 4 Koni Sport dampers for ~ $5202) Tein Front Camber Adjustable PBM for ~ $1503) RS*R Springs - cost unknown.4) If the boots fit with the springs, that'll be another $120 for OE. The KYB's would be much less.
Grand Total will probably be ~ $1000. That leaves a bit of money for bushings and possibly strut tower bars later.
That *seems* like it will suit my needs, but I could be missing something. Finding those springs could be tough, but I can wait a bit.
Dori Dori wrote:They will tell you that they won't fit anything but Tein dampers if they respond at all.
For anyone who's interested, I got a response from Tein today. They basically said the the Tein pillowball upper mounts will fit the Koni's as long as the top of the shock is equivalent to the OE units.
Since the Koni Sport's will fit the OE mounts, I'd assume that both front and rear Tein PBM's will fit the Koni's.
I'm pleasantly surpised by Tein USA's response.
BadMojo wrote:...I'm also not really sure that I would make use of the adjustability of a coilover. For a bit more than the cost of the Koni's and GC's, I could get a set of Tein's. Realistically, I probably won't ever get a chance to run my car at the track. For a street setup, I just don't see myself adjusting ride height very often.
I too am in the market for a suspension for my street driven, S13. The Tein's are directed toward a drift driver, with the utmost in car control needs. Drift suspensions are stiff, and very non-pliable for the utmost in flat, controlable slides.
The Ground Controls on the other hand, especially when setup with a suitable spring and adjustable strut will offer the suspension travel that is required for street driving.
You mention that you're not going to be going to the track much, and not adjusting the ride height frequently. If that's the case, why are you even looking at the Tein's when GCs and some Koni's will get the job done? Not to mention, they can also be corner weighted. Sort of like getting the ride height adjusted, there is no reason to constantly corner weight it. Just get it done once, and enjoy the benefits of having a truly well balanced suspension setup.
edit: As a side note, I saw that you asked about kgmm springs. I have a set of them on my S13 right now, along with some Bilstein struts. I believe that at least one of the struts is blown, because of the high spring rate and rather severe drop. I never drove the car at stock ride height, but by eyeball... it looks like it's been dropped on the plus side of 2 inches.
As far as predictability goes though, they are very stiff and make for no-surprise oversteer. They're much too stiff for the stock spring perches, but on a coil-over tube, they might provide enough dampening with the increased shock travel.
This thread is reaching epic proportions. I hope it's useful for someone other than me.Phax wrote:I too am in the market for a suspension for my street driven, S13. The Tein's are directed toward a drift driver, with the utmost in car control needs. Drift suspensions are stiff, and very non-pliable for the utmost in flat, controlable slides.
I'm not sure that the Tein's are directed towards drift drivers in any way but marketing. From what I've read (and maybe someone who's used them can confirm), the spring rate on the lower end Tein's is high, but the damping isn't quite what it should be. The lower end models seem like they would be fine for street use, but I've seen people complain about them for track use.
I know the HE's were specifically marketed towards drifters, but again, it sounds like mostly advertising-speak to me.
Anyway, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't quite feel "right" about sleeve coilovers and I don't really see any ~$1200 coilovers that I like. The only other choice is a good shock/spring combo. Since Koni says the Sport's will be able to handle the RS-R springs, I should be able to adjust them to be reasonably comfortable. Of course, I have no illusions as to the "comfort" of a 5 kg/mm spring compared to stock. I'd imagine that I'll have to trim the front bump-stops a bit to keep from hittin' em on bumpy roads.
-
Auto-X 240
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:58 am
- Car: SCCA autocross
- Contact: