my comments on 248/240 s13 cam swap

Information on the naturally-aspirated KA24E and KA24DE engines.
User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (p0onsta)

Postby alkemyst » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:59 pm

p0onsta wrote:Sorry, double post. but after driving the new setup for 2 days, I've come to the conclusion that 248(-2.5)/232 is indeed slower all over the place, until it goes past 5k. None of the dips in power that were noticed by others in 248/232 were there, but the nicer top end was. I really miss my bottom end though, so next I will try 248(+2.5)/232 and hopefully it will do what 240/232 does, only better: power all over the rev range.

Has there been any others who've tried this? Is anybody reading this thread anymore? DJPantsSpecR? BigVinnie?

Modified by p0onsta at 8:17 PM 3/19/2008
It's all been done and posted.

search a bit, zerothread/199832

there is a lot of information out there on this.


User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (alkemyst)

Postby alkemyst » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:33 pm

one thing I'd love to find out though is adj. timing gears/setting up the 248's for +2.5 degrees on a 1998 with the single row timing chain setup.

P0onsta, the +2.5 on the 248 is the way to go, definitely not retarding. There was one dude that retarded his cams to something like -7.5 I think and made great power...no one else seems to have duplicated that.

User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (alkemyst)

Postby alkemyst » Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:08 pm

I have verified that even the 1998's have a double row timing chain and clock the S13 cams 4 teeth CCW just like any other. You *SHOULD* push the oil galley plug in more, but I don't think it's a requirement (JWT told me on their cams it doesn't matter, may have been incorrect though).

I will say if you do this, make sure you double check the exhaust cam even if you don't touch it...mine was off a tooth. This causes a bad idle.


stinger3007
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:32 pm
Car: 89 240sx hatchback, with ka-24de motorswap five speed

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby stinger3007 » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Alright guys, i got a question i'm sure i have a 91 KA-24DE motor in my 89 hatch it's a 5 speed. I have a jim wolf adapter filter with intake tube and 3" catback exhaust stock header system to cat. suspension and everything of that sort is modified "Upgraded"I drift the hell out of my car, the bottom end is okay, but could be btter and the top end sucks by comparison to my last motor, and i don't seem to have the power my last motor had... i'm looking to get that power back with this motor. i do daily drive my car and i have solid mounts so it vibrates enough now. i already did my alternator swap, thanks much for that now my twin electric fans don't kill my power so bad. My question is what cam swap should i run... i've noticed the entire power band of this motor is less then that of my last i did no cam swaps in either motor yet and i think thats where my power problem is... any help would be great. thanks!

User avatar
Neejay
Posts: 2256
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (alkemyst)

Postby Neejay » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:33 am

Anyone with the 248/232 cam swap: What is your timing set to? I ****ed mine up and had to pay to get it running/reset/etc. and he said it's at 15 degrees.

User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (Neejay)

Postby alkemyst » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:36 am

Neejay wrote:Anyone with the 248/232 cam swap: What is your timing set to? I ****ed mine up and had to pay to get it running/reset/etc. and he said it's at 15 degrees.
Distributor timing is 20BTDC...I didn't touch it from stock.

For the 248 cam I did advance it +2.5 with cam gears.

User avatar
Neejay
Posts: 2256
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (alkemyst)

Postby Neejay » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:00 pm

alkemyst wrote:
Distributor timing is 20BTDC...I didn't touch it from stock.

For the 248 cam I did advance it +2.5 with cam gears.
Gotcha...so it should be 20BTDC regardless? hmm...

Is there any ill effect to running 15? Other than hurt performance?

User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (Neejay)

Postby alkemyst » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:39 pm

Neejay wrote:Gotcha...so it should be 20BTDC regardless? hmm...

Is there any ill effect to running 15? Other than hurt performance?
That would be it. Factory spec is actually 20BTDC +/- 2 degrees (18-22).

Is there any reason the mechanic didn't just advance it to stock range?

User avatar
Neejay
Posts: 2256
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (alkemyst)

Postby Neejay » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:43 pm

alkemyst wrote:
That would be it. Factory spec is actually 20BTDC +/- 2 degrees (18-22).

Is there any reason the mechanic didn't just advance it to stock range?
No idea, but I bought a timing light today and set it to 20BTDC. It seemed to be around like 16-17.

Knotmaster
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:32 pm
Car: 89 240sx
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (Neejay)

Postby Knotmaster » Wed May 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Ok i just did the 248/248 swap and im not sure if it should ideal different or not but i cant tell a difference in sound of the exhaust
Modified by Knotmaster at 11:09 AM 5/8/2008

nookie2692000
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:06 pm
Car: 2 91 coupe`s. one going 302 fully gutted street beast

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (Knotmaster)

Postby nookie2692000 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:51 am

what about doing a de head on the e block and doing a cam swap? how do you guys think that would make out for some numbers?
Modified by nookie2692000 at 8:01 AM 6/11/2008

User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (nookie2692000)

Postby alkemyst » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:37 pm

If everything was running perfectly you'd be about 4% or so higher in HP than a stock DE with the same mods due to the compression difference.

I don't know if it's truly worth the work unless you are rebuilding the motor at the same time and then I'd just stick with a DE motor and put in the E pistons if hi-comp is what you are looking for.

User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (alkemyst)

Postby alkemyst » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:25 am

bump due to dyno:



My power is crap...only thing I can point to is the 248 at +2.5 with my 232 as an exhaust cam.

I am going to try to retard it -2.5 degrees and see if I pick up power...otherwise I am throwing my 232 back in.

My car has just about every bolt-on possible...I should be very close to 150RWHP at the min. Without advancing the ignition timing 2 degs I was only making 108 at the wheels.

Nisxsz
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:47 pm
Car: 89 240 hatch w/91 kade
Contact:

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby Nisxsz » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:08 am

DjPantsSpecR wrote:Okay, all this information is EASILY found, and im pretty sure its even in this thread somewhere.

so all im gonna add is this: dont trust green and orange marks... but i havent had any problems doing so. the nunmbers are not helpful

exhaust cams (excluding 98 cams) have the pin on the cam to the left of the centerline for the first lobe. intake cams have the pin in the same centerline as the first lobe.

once you've determined if you have an intake or an exhaust cam, you can use the colors. s13s exhaust cams are orange, and intakes are green. s14 exhausts are green, and intakes are orange, so its just the opposite.

i think someone was stoned as hell when they made that decision at Nissan. so with this info, you should still be able to figure it out. the pics you show are useless, you need to look at the pin location.

As far as my intake manifold, if anyone reads this, i will soon have some access to software for my work with FSAE called Vectis. this is a simulator that uses computational fluid dynamics to model intake and exhaust manifolds. as soon as i get my **** done on the FSAE car i can model my own manis.

only problem is this will be months away, after the proto-types hav been finished. good for future designs though.
how can you differentiate a s13 cam from a s14 cam? and for the exhaust cam how far is the pin from the centerline of the first lobe? 2-3mm?

User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: (Nisxsz)

Postby alkemyst » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:49 am

Nisxsz wrote:
how can you differentiate a s13 cam from a s14 cam? and for the exhaust cam how far is the pin from the centerline of the first lobe? 2-3mm?
color method ..but the only 100% sure way if you didn't know the car they came out of is by degreeing the cams. Not for the typical shadetree mechanic.

As far as pin, what are you trying to accomplish? The intake came has the pin dead center on the first lobe the exhaust it's even close.

liquid_cool
Posts: 1701
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:02 am
Car: 1990 240sx ka24de-T swap 8.6:1cr ,duelsprings ,ti retainers,supertech pistons,K1 H-beems balanced internals ect ect.
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby liquid_cool » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:52 pm

hay man..cool post first off..really good info your puttin out there..im curious thou..did you change springs allso with that cam? and adjust for valve lift?..couse that might be where some power went to..just curious..let me know please the jucy details.

myspace.com/liquid_cool_ka24de

User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (liquid_cool)

Postby alkemyst » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:13 am

liquid_cool wrote:hay man..cool post first off..really good info your puttin out there..im curious thou..did you change springs allso with that cam? and adjust for valve lift?..couse that might be where some power went to..just curious..let me know please the jucy details.

myspace.com/liquid_cool_ka24de
springs aren't needed for a stock cam swap. Are you talking about cam bucket clearance or setting valve lift another method?

Nisxsz
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:47 pm
Car: 89 240 hatch w/91 kade
Contact:

Re: (alkemyst)

Postby Nisxsz » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:57 am

alkemyst wrote:
color method ..but the only 100% sure way if you didn't know the car they came out of is by degreeing the cams. Not for the typical shadetree mechanic.

As far as pin, what are you trying to accomplish? The intake came has the pin dead center on the first lobe the exhaust it's even close.
well you see i did the 248/232 cams swap. So what i have left is 240(int) and 232(int). Now should the s14 intake cam be orange? last time i checked, both of them were green. Maybe i'm trippin'EDIT: i am trippin' yea they're different colors. :P

Also. Id like to try out either 248/240 or 240/240. I got '91 kade, 4-1 pacesetter header, 3" catback, cone filter. I recall the OP said 248/240 doesnt have as much low-mid power as the 248/232. However the 240/240 has a really snappy low end, which i like. But the idle with 248/240 sounds really b.a. which i also like....****....EDIT: screw it, ima go with 240/232 and see how the low end is. I just read this whole thread...again, think. lolill post my impressions up as a reference.

thanks.

Modified by Nisxsz at 11:57 AM 7/16/2008
Modified by Nisxsz at 12:21 PM 7/16/2008

liquid_cool
Posts: 1701
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:02 am
Car: 1990 240sx ka24de-T swap 8.6:1cr ,duelsprings ,ti retainers,supertech pistons,K1 H-beems balanced internals ect ect.
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (alkemyst)

Postby liquid_cool » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:47 pm

sorry man..let me add to it a bit..i was thinking you went with a slightly larger valve lift cam..and use stock springs and retainers..i was asking if it might effect you power due to valve float at high end..im allso curious if they are larger cams did you redo the shim clearencing?or leave that stock?...couse that might effect lower end performance by slightly holding the valves open..im just wonderin man....i like to learn all i can:)..forgive my persistance.

myspace.com/liquid_cool_ka24de

Nisxsz
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:47 pm
Car: 89 240 hatch w/91 kade
Contact:

Re: (Nisxsz)

Postby Nisxsz » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:25 pm

240/232 cams:

1. good low rpm pull, nice sound...2. no pull after 4k. wtf mate?3. i dont like very much

what do you guys think i should do next? i did 248/232. i like that better than 240/232.

thanks.

Bigvinnie
Posts: 1079
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:07 am
Car: 2004 Nissan Frontier desert Runner, 2014 Nissan Titan
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (alkemyst)

Postby Bigvinnie » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:01 pm

alkemyst wrote:bump due to dyno:



My power is crap...only thing I can point to is the 248 at +2.5 with my 232 as an exhaust cam.

I am going to try to retard it -2.5 degrees and see if I pick up power...otherwise I am throwing my 232 back in.

My car has just about every bolt-on possible...I should be very close to 150RWHP at the min. Without advancing the ignition timing 2 degs I was only making 108 at the wheels.
So did you retard the cam yet????

User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (Bigvinnie)

Postby alkemyst » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:13 am

Yeah, posted in another thread though about it. Much better feeling. Need to re-dyno (probably next weekend)

I went with 5 degrees advance (25BTDC)...need to make sure it's not pulling timing at higher rpms though. I only run 93 octane, but it's like 100+ here at times (s. florida)

User avatar
Neejay
Posts: 2256
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (alkemyst)

Postby Neejay » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:11 am

alkemyst wrote:Yeah, posted in another thread though about it. Much better feeling. Need to re-dyno (probably next weekend)

I went with 5 degrees advance (25BTDC)...need to make sure it's not pulling timing at higher rpms though. I only run 93 octane, but it's like 100+ here at times (s. florida)
Yeah, that's my problem. You can actually see the timing moving when trying to time it. And around like 4k rpms, you can actually feel the timing being pulled (like all sound and no go, until after 5k rpms). But I don't know if my problem is my knock sensor code or not.

Maybe I should advance timing? s13 with 248/232 cams

Bigvinnie
Posts: 1079
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:07 am
Car: 2004 Nissan Frontier desert Runner, 2014 Nissan Titan
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (alkemyst)

Postby Bigvinnie » Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:53 pm

alkemyst wrote:Yeah, posted in another thread though about it. Much better feeling. Need to re-dyno (probably next weekend)

I went with 5 degrees advance (25BTDC)...need to make sure it's not pulling timing at higher rpms though. I only run 93 octane, but it's like 100+ here at times (s. florida)
If you are in 100degree weather you will probably want to back off your ignition timing a bit.... The knock sensor will hold you back to 3000 RPM. If you are going to advance the ignition timing I would find some way to increase fuel richness. When you advance the timing it will increase the egt as the a/fr's will run leaner. This could pose as some HP loss in high rpm's.

User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (Bigvinnie)

Postby alkemyst » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:41 am

Bigvinnie wrote:If you are in 100degree weather you will probably want to back off your ignition timing a bit.... The knock sensor will hold you back to 3000 RPM. If you are going to advance the ignition timing I would find some way to increase fuel richness. When you advance the timing it will increase the egt as the a/fr's will run leaner. This could pose as some HP loss in high rpm's.
well my timing seems to ramp up to 44 then go down to around 15-16 at full throttle. I think that is normal. It was only in the low 90`s yesterday though. I have a post out there asking about pinging and detected knock sensor retard. Best advice I got was the `DET cans`...but even then with a knock sensor, it`s probably going to pull the timing as soon as I hear anything.

With my three dyno runs I plan on running 2degs, 5degs and then maybe 7 or 8 degrees advance at the dist and see what does best.

Car is definitely a lot more responsive and powerful. I just don`t know if I am making what I should be. I am used to V8`s and a v6 in the past for mods.

thanks

User avatar
alkemyst
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:46 am
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (Neejay)

Postby alkemyst » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:55 am

Neejay wrote:Yeah, that's my problem. You can actually see the timing moving when trying to time it. And around like 4k rpms, you can actually feel the timing being pulled (like all sound and no go, until after 5k rpms). But I don't know if my problem is my knock sensor code or not.

Maybe I should advance timing? s13 with 248/232 cams
what is your setup now? Timing shouldn`t move at idle. Usually if power dips and then returns that is not knock...usually with that after about 50% throttle or 3krpms your power drops and stays down no matter how much faster you go.

Bigvinnie
Posts: 1079
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:07 am
Car: 2004 Nissan Frontier desert Runner, 2014 Nissan Titan
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (alkemyst)

Postby Bigvinnie » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:55 am

alkemyst wrote:
With my three dyno runs I plan on running 2degs, 5degs and then maybe 7 or 8 degrees advance at the dist and see what does best.
Your timing advance is dependent on what plug type you use.

If you are using copper plugs at most you will be able to get a 6 degree advance before having to adjust the A/Fr's.

With platinum plugs almost a 9~10 degree advancement from these plugs before adjusting the A/Fr's.

Iridium plugs are pretty much limitless to how far you want to advance.

It's teh heat range that the plugs handle. More advance is higher for the plugs. More retard is lower on the plugs. Iridium plugs are usually meant for high compression and lots of advancement.

Now this is how relevant and cold burning the plugs are, and how much flame front prorogation increases from timing advance.

The reason why I like the SAFC2 for basic naturally aspirated engines is because it gives alot more tuning for such a short amount of time (time paid for dyno use). On the dyno when you see the A/Fr's become to lean or see that the egt is getting higher. You can very quickly tune around a situation like that using the SAFCespecially when you tinker with base timing..I think you will see it can become beneficial.
Modified by Bigvinnie at 5:04 PM 7/27/2008

User avatar
480sx
Posts: 4085
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:27 pm
Car: 1996 Pearl White 240sx

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (Bigvinnie)

Postby 480sx » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:38 am

Thats the dumbest post i have ever seen in my two years of Nico. EVER.

Please, for the sake of your engines, disregard that post.
Modified by 480sx at 2:38 PM 7/27/2008

User avatar
boyka240
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:00 am
Car: 91 Nissan 240sx Ka24de 270,000 coupe
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (480sx)

Postby boyka240 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:54 am

so going way back to the beginning of the topic. when talking about the cams 248/240. wouldn't you just be switching the two cams if you had a 92' ka24de. and then just move the cams around in a strategic way?

Bigvinnie
Posts: 1079
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:07 am
Car: 2004 Nissan Frontier desert Runner, 2014 Nissan Titan
Contact:

Re: KA24DE cam swaps (480sx)

Postby Bigvinnie » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:06 pm

480sx wrote:Thats the dumbest post i have ever seen in my two years of Nico. EVER.

Please, for the sake of your engines, disregard that post.

Modified by 480sx at 2:38 PM 7/27/2008
Dumb in what way????Spark plug overview from NGK...Anything out of 10degrees of timing is much to hot for common plugs....http://autospeed.com/cms/A_108731/article.html
NGK spark plugs wrote:Advancing ignition timing by 10 degrees causes tip temperature to increase by approx. 70-100 degrees C


Return to “KA24E / KA24DE Forum”