Must have a responsive KA24DET!

[Checkered-Member]

Being a huge N/A build up fan (hate lag with a passion) after months of debate, research, price quotes it has come down to best bang for the buck is a turbo.

I came to a minimum of $5,000 to have a maximum of 230 hp from an N/A KA24DE:10.5 pistons ($500-600), Forged Rods ($600-700), Forged Valves/Springs ($300-350), JWT Cams ($550-600), Porting intake manifold ($200), Head job ($550-650), bolt-ons($600) Valve job ($300-400) balancing ($300-350), ECU ($500) ignition upgrade ($300) Pistons Rings, gaskets, APR bolts, labor on some parts, stuff I forgot ($1000+) Total: almost 6 grand (some one is going to jump and say “you don’t need this you don’t need that” even if I take some of the stuff listed I’m still in the 5K range.

While a turbo I will spend a maximum of 5,000 to have a minimum of 230 hp from a KA24DET.Basic Turbo Kit ($3300-3500)+ upgrades ($300-500), ECU/Piggy Back ($400-500), turbo timer ($100-200), Boost Controller ($300-400) and various Gauges ($100-300) total: less then $5000

So turbo it is.Now as stated above (and in the title) I need a very responsive system.

What are some of the things I can do to make my KA24DET as responsive as possible (without spending an extra 2 grand). I plan to run at 8-9.5psi with 91 octane on stock internals.

The turbo: I would like to use a T3/T4E (defiantly a ball bearing)1. Unless there is a turbo more responsive for the same price. 2. what about ceramic blades? too expensive 3. A/R and compressor wheel profiles are variable, so which one are the best for a responsive KA at 8-9.5 psi?4. Intercooler: (small/large/specific brand) make any difference?5. Any other things?

P.S. did a search (not much info)

[Imissmyturbo]

Turbo.........http://store.yahoo.com/cheaptu....htmlGood turbo'shttp://www.precisionturbo.net/...eries

intercoolerhttp://www.precisionturbo.net/...olers

Now you need some good ECU + injectors and a of course all the other small hardware.

[C-Kwik]

Forget all the engine work. It's not necessary. Most of the headwork will start pushing you towards more power. JWT cams may lose some response for you. They are designed to flow better at higher RPM's. They may even have too much overlap for good turbo response. I'm not sure the exact specs, but I am speculating based on what the cam was designed to do. If your goal is 230 HP though, the engine work is complete overkill.

As far as response, there are two aspects to it. There is the boost threshold, which is the RPM where you will reach full boost. This varies from gear to gear, but should be within a certain range. Then there is the actual response. Now this refers to how quickly you can reach full boost from Closed throttle at an RPM that is beyond the boost threshold to wide open throttle. This is IMO, more important as most people spend very little time under the boost threshold. If you need low RPM boost, just make sure you use a small enough turbine. A T3 turbine should be broad enough for more people.

May I ask why you need response so much? It's always been my stance that I'd rather make more power and sacrifice response a bit. Lag is actually a lot of fun when you know there is a whole lot more coming. Total Anticipation.

For $5000, you should be able to boost about 15 psi and have over 300 HP. Possibly up to 350 or so.

[Titan]

I think one of the major things you want to consider for responsiveness is short intercooler piping.

In other words, no FMIC for you. I believe I read somewhere that each 90-degree elbow of piping is equivalent to approximately 1 foot of straight piping in terms of flow efficiency. Don't quote me on this, but either way, more piping = more lag.

The setup I'm considering has a medium sized IC mounted where the stock air box used to be. Then a duct will be cut in the hood, followed by a heat shield. This will utilize the high-pressure air stream over your hood and funnel it down to the IC. Such a setup should provide adequate cooling while providing excellent throttle response, considering the piping almost goes straight from the compressor to the TB. My friend, Nik, has such a setup on his sr and it works quite well, even without the hood duct yet.

I have a pic of his bay, pm me and I'll send it to you if you like.The only problem I can foresee for this setup is the altima's bay. I have no idea concerning the clearance in there for a decent sized IC.

Pete

[C-Kwik]

Even one foot of straight pipe has very little detrimental effect on response. Most people won't even notice the difference.

As far as using a top mount intercooler configuration, it can work, but without good ducting(hood scoop), don't expent to be able to run extended periods of boost. Your I/C will get heatsoaked very quicky under those conditions. For moderate street driving and drag racing, you can likely get away with it. For road racing or drag racing, expect to have an ineffective I/C after a few laps.

[Red Lightning]

Well, if you really want response, and only 230whp, how about getting a straight T3, or even the Big T28(too small?) Then eliminate the intercooler, use alcohol/water injection to cool the intke charge. That should give you excellent response.

[klattr1]

if you are talking about responsiveness of the line, any turbo obviously has to spool up. So it wont be as responsive as Naturally Aspirated.Jim Wolf cams actually made my car more responsive, but after 3000 rpm. If I'm racing someone on the street and I'm at 3500 rpm and I nail it, I pull alot sooner than I did with stock cams. But from a stop, you will lose some low end torque with Jim Wolf cams. I have the cams combined with a t3/t04e now. WOW!From a roll, the car is amazing. From a stop, without dumping the clutch, it seems like it takes forever to build up.It depends if you are looking for drag racing from a stop responsiveness or street racing from a roll responsiveness.What is the intent of your project?

[aleph1]

you want response? Search for a Garrett VNT turbo, dunno if they make em anymore, but never the less, they will be super expensive =)

[rco8786]

That, or those new variable vein whatever the flip they are called turbos that garrett is about to start producing. supposedly eliminates the wastegate.

[edit] I read up on those VNT's...They are just like the new ones they are coming out with. I guess they're not so new...bastards. [/edit]

[WDRacing]

If your keeping the stock CR then you won't lose any throttle response, and if you use a boost retard based timing setup, like MSD 6BTM then you won't lose your NA timing curve unless your already on boost. So Just get any of the readily available turbo kits with a T3/T4 with a .48 to .63 AR section. They will spool plenty quick and you'll be well over 230 with the money you have to spend.

WD

[Checkered-Member]

Thank you all for your responses

Turbo.........http://store.yahoo.com/cheaptu....htmlGood turbo'shttp://www.precisionturbo.net/...eriesintercoo ... ..olersNow you need some good ECU + injectors and a of course all the other small hardware.

I’m getting a basic turbo kit already assembled, so I don’t need any parts, but thanks for the links.

Forget all the engine work. It's not necessary. If your goal is 230 HP though, the engine work is complete overkill.

For $5000, you should be able to boost about 15 psi and have over 300 HP. Possibly up to 350 or so.

The over kill is “insurance”, so if one day I’ll be stupid enough to put a 75 shot.I want to spend less then 5k and I don’t need 300hp.

May I ask why you need response so much? It's always been my stance that I'd rather make more power and sacrifice response a bit. Lag is actually a lot of fun when you know there is a whole lot more coming. Total Anticipation.

It is a very unpleasant drive, when the car is so lagy, I know because I have a turbo Audi and it is very lagy (on streets) on the freeway it pulls on mustangs GT’s, but I do mostly city driving and I want the fun of having a responsive car, because if my car lags I’m just going to hate it.

I think one of the major things you want to consider for responsiveness is short intercooler piping.

In other words, no FMIC for you. I believe I read somewhere that each 90-degree elbow of piping is equivalent to approximately 1 foot of straight piping in terms of flow efficiency. Don't quote me on this, but either way, more piping = more lag.

I was afraid some one will come up with that, and you are right, more piping = more lag, but there is no other place to mount it, I especially don’t want any hood scoops.

Well, if you really want response, and only 230whp, how about getting a straight T3

hmm a T3/T3 that might just work, I will look in to that.

Jim Wolf cams actually made my car more responsive, but after 3000 rpm. If I'm racing someone on the street and I'm at 3500 rpm and I nail it, I pull alot sooner than I did with stock cams. But from a stop, you will lose some low end torque with Jim Wolf cams. I have the cams combined with a t3/t04e now. WOW!

JWT cams, I’ll give them a call and see what can they do for my turbo setup, but are you sure the car is more responsive rather then just faster because of the added hp from the cams?

From a roll, the car is amazing. From a stop, without dumping the clutch, it seems like it takes forever to build up.It depends if you are looking for drag racing from a stop responsiveness or street racing from a roll responsiveness.What is the intent of your project?

It’s main purpose is a daily driver, so no drag racing for me, maybe the occasional race from a roll of from freeway speeds.

you want response? Search for a Garrett VNT turbo, dunno if they make em anymore, but never the less, they will be super expensive =)

I did a search from the things I found, it just a fuel saving turbo, mostly designed for diesels or small engines, as we all know the KA is nothing close to small.

If your keeping the stock CR then you won't lose any throttle response, and if you use a boost retard based timing setup, like MSD 6BTM then you won't lose your NA timing curve unless your already on boost. So Just get any of the readily available turbo kits with a T3/T4 with a .48 to .63 AR section. They will spool plenty quick and you'll be well over 230 with the money you have to spend.

WD

Thank you will keep those in mind.

[McAdam]

Actually,. the VANT's were designed to get rid of lag. I have a VNT25 waiting for a rebuild. they are cheap, if you know what to look for. I got mine for $175 shipped. they came in some chrysler prducts in 1990 stock.

Also, look into AEROCHARGERS, they went out of business, so you should be able to find one relatively cheap. they made a T3 sized turbo, they were VNT and had a dual ball bearing setup, talk about responsiveness. there were some reliability issues though.

McAdam

[TurboKA37]

if you have the money i like the V-mount intercooler style that i think Signal does. Super street just did an article documenting signal installing one in a rx-7. a lot less piping so less restrictive, and the intercooler doesnt interfere with radiator/ cooling system. but i doubt you have the money for this from what it sounds like

[solarex]

Being a huge N/A build up fan (hate lag with a passion)

turbo lags can be your friend...it helps with offline traction problem, believe it or not.

[SloS13]

If you want a big turbo with bearings, bend over and relax...go to your happy place. My advise would be non-intercooled, alcohol/water injection and a 30 shot or so of nitrous. You can get pressure switches to make the nitrous only work under vacum or low-boost so you arent filling up your tank every 5 seconds

[aleph1]

A little lag is good, so you dont spin your tires backing out of a parking spot, etc. You have a good range between 1K-3Krpms to not hit the boost or just barely at 3K and it is good for a daily driver. Keep stock compression though.

[Z1500]

What RPM do you need to have full boost by? How much max HP do you need the turbo to be capable of?

Kevin

[SloS13]

I personally get full boost by probly 3.5k (havent really paid attention much), turbo lag doesnt really bother me. It was an annoyance at first but id much rather have good top end than a quick spool. KA already has enough of its own power down low

[Checkered-Member]

What RPM do you need to have full boost by? How much max HP do you need the turbo to be capable of?

Kevin

2.5K power 220-230 wheel hp

[Z1500]

2500RPM full boost an only 230whp is a piece of cake. Any plain T3 60trim will do that. We (AGP Turbo) do a 360whp capable BB turbo that gets full boost under 3000.

Kevin

[Checkered-Member]

2500RPM full boost an only 230whp is a piece of cake. Any plain T3 60trim will do that. We (AGP Turbo) do a 360whp capable BB turbo that gets full boost under 3000.

Kevin

I think you missed the point (correct me if I’m wrong) I want a turbo that will: from the point I hit WOT it will spool up in less then half a second and then give me raw power half a second after that, I’m not really interested in standing starts only rolling starts.

Also I want an intercooler, incase one day I decide I want more then 230 hp.

[SloS13]

I think you missed the point (correct me if I’m wrong) I want a turbo that will: from the point I hit WOT it will spool up in less then half a second and then give me raw power half a second after that, I’m not really interested in standing starts only rolling starts.

Also I want an intercooler, incase one day I decide I want more then 230 hp.

if im in 2nd gear already at like 4000 rpm, my t3/t4 is pretty damn responsive, but if I was at say, 2000 rpm in 3rd gear id be SOL

[Z1500]

T3 60trim will give you pretty much instant boost. The car will feel like it has a V8 rather than a turbo 4. Our ballbearing "SS44" will give pretty instant boost once you are over 3000.

Kevin

[SloS13]

Checkered - like Z1500 brought up, 'instant boost' is dependent on what RPM you're at when you go WOT