More Frequent Oil Change = More Wear!

[coolyun_98]

http://neptune.spacebears.com/....html

I really hope all the gurus can comment on this. I reamamber Q45TECH and many others say that 4k miles OCI is the best, but the study says completely the different thing.

I am totally confused!
Modified by coolyun_98 at 9:06 PM 11/20/2008

[qship96]

The oil filter becomes more efficient as it ages and begins to load up{same with an air filter} filtering samaller and smaller particles out of the oil.
Modified by qship96 at 9:48 PM 11/20/2008

[coolyun_98]

But clearly they changed oil filter during the testing, I think there is a SAE paper on this subject. Basically, I am speechless about the conclusion of the testing.

[coolyun_98]

The oil filter becomes more efficient as it ages and begins to load up{same with an air filter} filtering samaller and smaller particles out of the oil.

Modified by qship96 at 9:48 PM 11/20/2008

Conclusion from the testing..."The filter change at 12,000 miles also substantially affected the wear metals. Though changing the filter by itself wouldn't have a significant effect on the concentration of metals -- the metals picked up in spectrometric analysis are too small for a filter to capture -- the amount of top-up oil required to fill the crankcase after the filter swap substantially alters the chemistry of the oil. Iron and lead didn't reach their 12k levels for another four or five thousand miles, and copper never reached its 12k level in the remainder of the test. It's easy to see here why proponents of extreme oil changes demand filter changes at regular intervals. Indeed, one is forced to wonder whether an engine with a high-quality PAO synthetic combined with a bypass filtration system and regular filter changes would ever need its oil changed at all."

[maxnix]

Fresh oil is uncontaminated oil.

Which do you think is better?j

[coolyun_98]

Fresh oil is uncontaminated oil.

Which do you think is better?j

This is straight from a SAE technical paper:

Characterization of anti-wear films formed from fresh and aged engine oils Dairene Uya, Steven J. Simko, a, , R.O. Carter IIIa, Ron K. Jensena and Arup. K. Gangopadhyaya

Ford Motor Company, MD 3182/SRL Building, P.O. Box 2053, Dearborn, MI 48121-2053, United States

Received 15 August 2006; revised 14 December 2006; accepted 18 December 2006. Available online 23 May 2007.

AbstractModern engine oils are formulated with zinc dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) compounds to protect moving metal components from wear. As emissions regulations for automobiles become more stringent, lower concentrations of these additives are being considered in future oil formulations to extend the life of the catalyst after-treatment systems. However, any formulation changes need to be carefully tested to ensure there is no degradation in friction and wear performance.

While evaluating engine oils in a prior study, we found that the valve-train wear improved markedly as the oil aged. Changes in tribological performance were linked to differences in surface film chemistry on the valve tappet components.

In the current study, we examine the friction and wear of fresh and aged engine oils in controlled laboratory tests using a simulated valve-train apparatus, ball-on-flat, and cylinder-on-flat test rigs. Surface films that form during sliding were characterized at different length scales and depth distributions using reflection infrared spectroscopy, Raman spectroscopy, and high-vacuum surface analysis. The types of species present, such as phosphates, were different between fresh and aged oil. Carbonate and sulfide were present in films formed from fresh oil, but were usually absent from aged oil. Wear control may be related to a competition between carbonate and phosphate species. Oxidized-oil-derived entities are present on aged oil coupons and appear to improve friction performance. Thus, differences in film composition are used to explain performance differences of fresh and aged oils and the results from the different test rigs.

Contaminated oil is bad for your engine? The question to be answered is "what does those contaminants do?"

[coolyun_98]

Fresh oil is uncontaminated oil.

Which do you think is better?j

I THINK new oil is definitely better than USED oil. If so, those engineers that wrote up the SAE paper at Ford must be smoking weed...

[marlin29311]

...maybe there is a reason Ford is in the tanker and their cars suck...

[maxnix]

Contaminated oil is bad for your engine? The question to be answered is "what does those contaminants do?"

No doubt blow-by products, water and wear particles are not good for the engine. Chemical transfomation of additives is another issue that does not address contaminants, nor does tehis study, evidently from the abstract. If the engine lubrication system has a large enough capacity and stand off filtration like big diesel rigs, many paramters can change when it come to length of viable service for the lubricant.

"Tappets" makes me think they are studying an OHV engine, and the wear characteristics are not detailed, so who knows how applicable the observations are to OHC designs?

I wonder if there is any news here besides "engine oil additives appear to work"?

[coolyun_98]

...maybe there is a reason Ford is in the tanker and their cars suck...

true...

Who else thinks the conclusion from the apper make sense? Q45tech?

[maxnix]

Who else thinks the conclusion from the apper make sense? Q45tech?

Ah, that's your conclusion, not theirs, from the material which you provided.

[coolyun_98]

No doubt blow-by products, water and wear particles are not good for the engine. Chemical transfomation of additives is another issue that does not address contaminants, nor does tehis study, evidently from the abstract. If the engine lubrication system has a large enough capacity and stand off filtration like big diesel rigs, many paramters can change when it come to length of viable service for the lubricant.

"Tappets" makes me think they are studying an OHV engine, and the wear characteristics are not detailed, so who knows how applicable the observations are to OHC designs?

I wonder if there is any news here besides "engine oil additives appear to work"?

true!

[coolyun_98]

Ah, that's your conclusion, not theirs, from the material which you provided.

That was provided by Ford. I am just bring this up to my beloved nico members. Are u offensed by this topic?

[maxnix]

That was provided by Ford. I am just bring this up to my beloved nico members. Are u offensed by this topic?

No, I am just saying that is not their conclusion, it is yours.

Their conclusion is absent of considerations of contamination of combusition by products, real world environmental conditions and engine wear, the addtives seem to convert to chemical formulations that inhibit wear in tappets.

Yours is that old engine oil is better than new engine oil. Quite a different statement.

[coolyun_98]

No, I am just saying that is not their conclusion, it is yours.

Their conclusion is absent of considerations of contamination of combusition by products, real world environmental conditions and engine wear, the addtives seem to convert to chemical formulations that inhibit wear in tappets.

Yours is that old engine oil is better than new engine oil. Quite a different statement.

Haha... I see I see... Nice input man...your comment is actually what I am looking for. I am looking for a resonable way to look at the result.

My theory is this... don't let old oil film start forming at the metal surface by changing the oil regularily so the "competing chemistry" from the new oil can be prevented.

[maxnix]

Well, like I said, it seems to ignore common contaminants which are much more of a problem than chemical bonding to metal wear areas in modern day oil formulations.

In short, I think this study, presumably done under laboratory conditions, just confirms the effectiveness of the modern additive formulations. They do what they were designed to do.

[morsecode]

Haha... I see I see... Nice input man...your comment is actually what I am looking for. I am looking for a resonable way to look at the result.

My theory is this... don't let old oil film start forming at the metal surface by changing the oil regularily so the "competing chemistry" from the new oil can be prevented.

Agree.

[Q45tech]

Modern [2000+] oils have greatly reduced the amount of Zinc DDP to avoid reducing thin film cat efficiency.

Lots of difference between a cast iron engine and an all aluminum engine.Careful about trying to transfer any useful wear info from one type to another, as even the types of iron/steel alloys used in the two types are often different..................especially cylinder liners and rings.

2002 redesigns used narrower bearings/rings to reduce friction thus limiting [trading] long term life to gain HP.