megasquirt vs chip vs piggyback

[Bigred*]

so mechanically i feel like understand an engine fairly well, but when it comes to this electronic magic im lost but am trying to learn! so i have the engine out and its getting a few upgrades, have some jwt sport 500 turbos going on, nismo 555cc fuel injectors, 2.5" full hks exhaust with a pop charger, those are the main upgrades, going with those is a boost controller, boost gauge, wide band o2, oil pressure and so on.. now where im stuck is engine management, obviously with the bigger turbos im going to need to be able to tell the engine it needs more fuel and to change the timing, trying to understand what works best, and price is a big factor, with what ive already got i only have a few hundred to play with.

one of my buddies is trying to talk me into getting a megasquirt, thats what he has on his car. we'd just get the $300 one that we have to solder together, but otherwise id have no clue how to set it up. He has it on his car, and honestly im not a huge fan, i t seems to run pretty good, but he always has to crank it for a little bit and then he has to hold the idle up or itll die until its warmed up.

as far as a chip, or a piggyback.. well actually i have no clue on any of this stuff.. from what i have leaerned, i may be better off with one of these two since i already have a turbo car ecu.. all these guys i see with megasquirts are turboeing an n/a car like my buddy..

Still have a ton of research to do but looking for some good input from guys with experience

[Bigred*]

oh and i forgot to say, the last owner threw on some hks bov's and trashed the stock diverter valves so i dont have those anymore, i do love the sound of the hks valves and would prefer to keep them, but if i go from full boost to idle the car stalls out and dies, so maybe itd be better to go with some stand alone thing so i can run a map sensor instead of maf

[Bigred*]

oh one more thing to ad on is i can get an apexi neo air fuel controller for $200. i feel like i could instal that pretty well, but ive been told these ecu's are good at leaning new things, so would i always be fihting the stock ecu if i ran a piggyback?

[Z-owned]

What are you looking to get out of the car? A chip is the easiest to do and I would recommend either SZ or Harry (Ztuner) as far as which to go with. Nistune would be the piggy back style in a sense that you still run off the stock ecu but you can get it tuned to your car. Stand alone is the most complicated but offers the most features and customization and will require a custom tune and time on a dyno which equals even more money. As for the bov's I would suggest ditching them and finding some stock recirc's as these cars were designed for.

[Bigred*]

well i was hoping to get 400+ rwhp thats what i was aiming for, optomistically 450 rwhp and believe i can with this setup, properly set up.. i guess to ask a more specific question is if i get a chip, does that just pop into a stock ecu? or are the chips made for aftermarket ecu's? if i can just chip my stock ecu i like that path, cheap and easy, then i can recoupe from everything and later down the road get more into the computers. as far as the BOV's, they have a like a speaker cone on the end of them, i guess to make them louder, but it looks like i can screw it off, which if i can, then i can just run a hose straight off of them back into the intake, not whats its made for, but im pretty sure itll work just the same..

if i ended up going stand alone, would i be ok on something as generic as megasquirt? im fully expecting to have it dynoed down the road, but as for right now i like the options that best safely gets me back on the road for now as ive spent quite a bit and need to recover

[NolimitZ32]

Z-owned got most of it except that a Nistune is by no means a piggyback by definition. Nistune turns your factory ECU into basically a standalone.
You have 2 real choices:
1) If staying with all standard components (as you said Nismo 555s, JWT500s, etc), and if you don't plan to go bigger anytime in the near future, and if you arent trying to squeeze every last HP out of your setup go with a off-the-shelf tune (Chip) from one of the known tuners. This is the cheapest and generally safest route.
2) If you are hell bent on messing with certain parameters and want to be able to get inside the ECU then get a Nistune setup and have one of the OTS tunes programmed on it this way you end up with essentially the same base ROM (tune) as a chip but with the ability to adjust later on.

- Megasquirts are completely useless for the Z32 because a Nistune will do everything a Megasquirt will with about 100% less pain and suffering. Because Nistune upgrades your factory ECU you retain 100% OEM control and with the latest updates actually have ability to add things like a Wideband to the factory system (All this requires actually knowing how to tune or paying someone to do it).
- A standalone will be a stupendous waste of money for you as there is nothing about a mild build like what you are planning that the factory ECU either Chipped or Nistuned can't handle. The factory 8-bit and 16-bit ECUs are more than fast enough to process anything a 450-500HP build will throw at it.
- Piggybacks utilize simple circuits to alter incoming signals from different sensors before sending them to your factory (or chipped) ECU for processing. There is only ONE reason to EVER run a piggyback on a Z32 and that is if you just happen to have one and want to go Twin-POP/Dual-MAF. Otherwise piggybacks are never going to yield great results, you can get a car running well and even smooth out the idle, etc. but it will never be just quite right.

C/N: Get a Chip (EPROM) or Nistune, don't waste your money on a standalone like E-manage etc. Stay far away from piggybacks such as the AFC.

[Z-owned]

I stand by my statement that compared to a true stand alone it's more a piggy back as its utilizing the stock ecu, may not be the traditional style piggy back like I run on my mr2 but it has its limitations compared to full stand alone. For most people that want to get the most from their car without headache I think Nistune is the best choice.

[itsa300zx]

With your power goals, just go with the chip and get a custom tune. I don't see any intercoolers in your mod list, should consider those as well.
FWIW, I'm at 400whp with stock turbos, 740cc, Z1 intercooler, 2.5" DP exh. and a SZ dyno tunned,

[NolimitZ32]

Nistune may not be as capable as your standard stand alone systems but it couldn't be farther from a piggyback, as I explained the limitation of a piggyback and the main reason people started to move away from them is because the fuel, air, and timing adjustments a piggyback makes does not jive with the operation of entire engine control system. A piggyback does not provide output values to the CAR, it essentially provides the ECU with false readings that cause the factory program (which is not equipped to deal with whatever additional equipment you have such as bigger injectors) to provide the CAR with altered values. Most piggybacks I have ever seen only interrupt the MAF signal, by altering the MAF values it forces the ECU to add fuel, however because the factory maps are not adjusted for latency, frequency, and duty cycle this process cause hot combustion and detonation issues which are detected by the other sensors and henceforth cause the timing to be pulled back. This is the reason so many people were blowing up their engines in the early 2000s running SAFCs, before options like standalones became widely available. You may call it whatever you want but Nistune couldn't be farther from a piggyback, if anything its a standalone light as it may not have all the abilities of the expensive standalones but it works the same way an unadulterated ECU (factory or AM) does, something a piggyback absolutely can not do.

[DCaff300ZX]

To my knowledge, Nistune is as it is because it's primary use and reason for creation was to have hands on tuning capabilities of a Nissan vehicle, in which the ECU altering is just a part of the tool. Also adding to your issue is that when I went about my build and needed ECU control, I was told by my Z guy that Nistune no longer has the tuning capabilities a good tuner needs for a dyno tune, and my guy no longer uses Nistune and hence I am running a new style Apexipower FC. The only other choice he had was standalone, which as mentioned is a waste of time and money for our build level (under 600 whp). My guy also deals with the idle tuning issues that the piggyback style has, and has been able to make it work decent enough to run smoothly until warm and claimed the rest of the system allowed him the same tuning capabilities as Nistune previously had allowed, but no longer does. My Z runs like a raped ape afterwards on a very safe tune so I see no reason to believe otherwise.
However, you mention "a couple hundred dollars" as your tuning budget which will not go far towards a ApexipowerFC or Nistune which are in the $1K range and up, so at this point your budget is saying tuned SZ/ZTuner chip.

[Z-owned]

Nolimit I am not going to argue this lol I agree with what your saying and never called it a piggy back other than the sense it's tuning through the stock ecu. For arguments sake I am happy calling it stand alone light lol

[DCaff300ZX]

Not really an argument guys as you both are right, and just coming from different directions talking about the same thing.
Standalone lite is definitely a perfect description!

[budget300zx]

if you plan on doing tuneing and installing yourself and want more upgrades down the road just do the nistune....

realistically chips are not specifically tuned for just your vehicle anyway. too many variables are left out on a chip which can be changed and monitored if you do a standalone or nistune.

if you solder it yourself your looking at around 400+shipping for board, cable, and software; or 440+shipping for board, cable, software, and fitment (they install).

pricing from - http://www.nistune.com/equipment-products-type2.php

keep in mind shipping will probably also be another 100 since its australia

[DCaff300ZX]

Be aware that this ^^^^ route requires you to know what you are doing with any remapping as Nistune no longer has the input capabilities to dynotune your setup. It basically as was told to me has become at the level of pre-tuned chips (lots of uncovered parameters) discussed above for a tuner's purposes in that the software has been set up more for it's original intention as a diagnostic and monitoring tool, rather than power-adding source. I wish I could speak more technically about this, but I can't and am parroting as best I can info given me by a very good tuner who previously used Nistune only, and can not use the new version.
Yet another issue that is discussed in the very link posted is the limitations of the Z32 ECU in all tuning applications, and recommendation of the R32 ECU which more easily handles the needs of ECU changes for upgraded components and air fuel mixture needs, combined with the ECU's needs for running the engine and trans. My own setup runs with the R32 ECU combined with the ApexiPowerFC as the Z32 ECU will not work here either.
I just want to be sure that the OP has all of the details in sight as he researches his situation.

[Bigred*]

wow i am so impressed how well you guys know your stuff, quite alot of good info here and i couldnt have asked for a better explanation all in one spot.. for my needs, hands down looks like the chip is my route,, where i was mostly lost was i wasnt sure if the chip plugged into a stock ecu or if i needed something else to use it, glad to know i can just pop it in.. i see no point in the nistune for me right now, im not looking for anything crazy, if i can get close to 400 rwhp, thats a ton of power for the street! thats approaching super car power for less then $10,000 including parts.. later down the line once ive better learned and loved the car maybe nistune could be looked into, but thats probably years away. glad to have this sorted out so i can get a chip ordered.. taking off the heads now(which was why the small amount left for tuning) gonna get the whole engine refreshed down to the crank bearings, hoping theres no lip on my cylinder as i had really low compression.. 70-90psi across all 6 hopefully rings, hone and a valve job fixes that.. thanks for the help guys, maybe ill update as i get the car back together

[DCaff300ZX]

Sounds good...but one last piece of info regarding the chips- you need to have your ECU "socketed" in order to use the pre-loaded chips. This is a common thing to have done sometimes by the same vendor (send in whole ECU, they send back completed upgraded ECU with chip installed) or a swap of ECU's, or buy a socketed ECU (I have one somewhere I think).
That is what you need to move forward, good luck!

[Bigred*]

noted! thanks so much

[NolimitZ32]

OK guys, I'm going to take a step back from this convo and return in a month or so when I have started writing my own maps. I am not sure who is afraid to tune with Nistune or doesn't have the ability but as far as I have gotten into it so far, it is more than enough to adjust all operating parameters of the ECU. The guys at nistune have used it to fully unravel the code to the point where you can actually run 6 EGT channels and 2 AFR channels through the factory ECU and alter the code to consider these inputs when computing outputs for timing and fuel. I haven't gotten nearly this far in my learning of the hex-code and tables so that last part comes from very long conversations with Matt from Nistune who is one of the co-creators. But as I said, this is the first I have ever heard of anyone not running well into 4 digits say that Nistune wasn't enough. Alas, I will go forth and hopefully when I descend the mountain I will have more insight for all.