Maybe upgrading - carputer?

[AppleBonker]

Ok guys, let me know what you think:

I've been starting to have some trouble with my Alpine W205-blackbird nav combo (the nav isn't docking securely, so if I hit a bump it disconnects and I lose navigation until I re-seat it and it reboots). Rather than trying to fabricate some sort of rig to hold it in place, I started thinking about upgrading. My first thought turned to the newer Alpine iNA-W900 with the parrot bluetooth adapter. Then, I noticed that the head unit didn't have optical out, and required a proprietary Alpine backup camera. To be honest, I'm starting to get sick of proprietary connections (not to mention Alpine's complete lack of navigation updates) and the hassle of having to upgrade entire A/V systems at a time, so I began looking into building a car pc.

I have several goals I want to accomplish:1. In-dash touchscreen2. GPS navigation integration3. Media center capable of playing audio/video files using a variety of compression codecs4. Bluetooth phone connectivity (Ideally numeric and phonebook dialing and on-screen caller ID)5. HD Radio integration (I don't listen to much radio, but I like quality when I do)6. OBD-II connectivity for scanning codes/etc7. WiFi for file transfer/internet browsing8. Here's the biggest of all - Blow the Audisson Bit-One/Alpine H701 out of the water

Components (I haven't finalized these yet, I'm still in the very beginning brainstorming stages - I am also including a rough cost estimate):

CPU - Intel Core2Duo E6300 ($84)This should be more than powerful enough for this setup. Remember, adding a beast of a CPU in a car requires a great deal of power (and that gets expensive). There wont be much multi-tasking going on, so this should be sufficient.

Motherboard - ASUS P5QPL-AM ($60) This is a MicroATX board to conserve some space. I didn't really find any Mini-ITX boards that suited my needs exactly. Also, I couldn't find an appropriate case any smaller than Micro-ATX, so I might as well take advantage of the extra space available.

RAM - Corsair XMS2 DDR2-800 ($105)This will be in a 2 x 2GB configuration. Again, there wont be many processes running simultaneously, so I don't think I'll need 8 gigs.

Power Supply - M4-ATX ($88)This is a DC-DC PSU, meaning I can just run a power/ground from my battery to the terminals on the PSU. There is also a switched power to tell the PSU when the car is running (good so it doesn't drain my battery). Also, being DC-DC means I wont have to deal with any kind of power inverter which can add noise to the system.

Case - Haven't entirely decided yet (~$60)I'll have to figure this one out. I guess it depends on where I'm going to install. I would like to plop this thing under the passenger seat, but I don't know if I'll have the height clearance. More on this after measurements.

Hard Drive 1 - Intel X25-V ($130)40 GB Intel SSD for and OS drive. I'm hoping this will be sufficient for a stripped down OS (remember, there isn't a whole lot of software I'll actually need).

Hard Drive 2 - Some 1.0-1.5 TB drive (~$110)Doesn't really matter what, just something with a ton of storage for audio/video files.

Optical Drive - Maybe a BD-DVD drive? (~$100)Not that any monitor will really support the higher definition, but I don't really own any DVDs anymore. I've probably got about 150 movies on blu-ray, so it would be nice if I could still use them in my vehicle. Haven't entirely decided on this yet. Either way, the cost difference between BR and DVD isn't that much, and the drive will still read DVDs so I might just get it and worry about media later.

Wireless card - Rosewill RNX-N300 ($25)Wireless-N card. Should allow me to pickup a signal from the car parked outside my place.

Monitor - Lilliput 8" Touchscreen ($240)This isn't really set in stone yet either. I need to find out some better dimensions so I can see if it will fit (I'm hoping I can get this to better fill out the stock navigation dash kit).

Sound card - M-Audio Delta 1010LT ($190)This may be the most important part of the build. This card will be responsible for outputting all of my processed audio streams. To do this, it has 8x analog in/out. I will need this as my audio setup currently has 7 audio streams (one dedicated stream to each speaker). In fact, at a later date it would be quite simple to pull my rear fill and run 3-way active up front (which I am strongly considering).

Miscellaneous HardwareUSB GPS receiver - $40USB Bluetooth Dongle - $30HD Radio tuner - ~$140Random cables? - $50

SoftwareOS - Windows 7 or XP?Not sure which to run here. XP wont recognize all 4 gigs of ram, but might boot a bit faster. 7 is a solid OS, and will be supported much longer into the future. I'd love to run some flavor of Linux, but most of the software I want only runs on Windows.

Navigation - Maybe MS streets and trips?This is a long way off, so I haven't considered it much yet. I'll need some navigational software

Front-end - RideRunnerThis is the program that integrates all of the features (phone/navigation/music/video/etc). It is free and open source and it appears to have a decent amount of development continuing.

DSP Software:Audiomulch or ConsoleAgain haven't decided much on this yet either. Either one of these I believe will allow me to begin tuning my audio stream. Either one of these should be able to run time alignment and then output all PC audio to the next program (but I have a lot more learning to do).

Electric-QThis will run everything for me. It will act as a crossover/EQ/workhorse. This software is fairly incredible looking (check it out - Doc this is for you) with a seemingly endless amount of features (64!!! band EQ, crossover slopes as high as -72dB/oct). I should be able to run 7 instances of this software (one for each channel), meaning I can individually EQ each driver with all the above customization. The best part, I can do all of this from the touchscreen in dash. Other options (like the Bit One require a laptop be connected). The Alpine I currently have can do all this in dash, but is a bit harder to get a 3-way active running (not to mention only a 32-band EQ if I remember correctly). The amount of power at one's fingertips with this setup is mind-boggling.

In addition to the processing options (allowing me to disconnect the H701), this is a full-blown PC in the car. Anything you can do on your PC, this will be able to do. This gives me almost infinite options for media playback (while moving or parked) as well as the ability to customize nearly everything to my needs. There is a plugin that ties in an OBD-II scanner to output car information. There is a plugin for the backup cam that incorporates an ultra-sonic sensor to display on-screen the distance to an object behind you. Just thinking of having this much power in my car nearly makes me salivate. The only problem with this route, is that it is extremely user-unfriendly. I will probably build this PC in my house and go through installing and troubleshooting software for months before I will be even close to adding to a car.

So, the cost of the hardware for this setup appears to be around $1500 (similar to the cost of the W900/bluetooth adapter). However, one must also factor in the software cost (which may climb towards $500 if I decide to go with Windows 7 - I have an old copy of XP, but I don't have any copies of 7 yet). Cost is higher and difficulty of install is significantly higher, but the capabilities of the installed system are ridiculous. I'll keep you all posted on my progress, but please shoot me any ideas/questions you might have (this will be my first carputer build, so I'll be learning along the way as well - you're questions might help me debug/troubleshoot in advance).

[AppleBonker]

Slight change in plans already. I was unable to find a micro-ATX case that would *maybe* fit under one of the seats. I found a mini-ITX that should barely work, so I've got it on order. I'm definitely going to wait until I verify it fits before proceeding with any other purchases (plus, I need to research more and save up the dough). This is what I found. This looks like a perfect option as I can fit my sound card as well as the SSD, storage HD and a full-size optical drive. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that I've got a bit over 3.5" of clearance under one of the seats (it's close - I measured).

This pretty much ties me down to this motherboard (as I couldn't find any other mini-ITX boards with a PCI slot. Everything else should be compatible (except I'll have to go with a USB wireless adapter).

[Viper5000]

Looks like you you are heading in the right direction.

I have gone this route myself, and I can tell you that you have your work cut out for you!

But it is fun though, just tedious. I can tell you that the case I got fits nice and snug in the glovebox, if you would be willing to go that route.

In regards to Frontends.... did you take a look at Centrafuse?

Also if you haven't already, check out

mp3car.com&mo-co-so.com (good deals on parts) (The Owner Chris is a pleasure to work with)

Are you planning on custom fabbing the monitor in?? otherwise, nothing bigger than a 7inch wide screen will fit in the hole for the NAV kit.

I am still running XP, but am thinking about going to 7(better hibernation/sleep behavior)

Also, less RAM is more... depending on if you are going to be Hibernating or Sleeping, if you have less RAM, it takes less time to come out of Hibernation.

ALSO, FYI get a DPDT on-off-on switch for the comp

[AppleBonker]

I thought about the glove box, but it's tight in there and thermal dissipation seems questionable. What case do you have though? Any pictures of it in the car? And, with the audio card being one of my primary concerns, does it have a PCI slot? I may need to still consider this route if the case I ordered doesn't fit.

As far as the time goes, I seem to be busy a lot, but I somehow always make time to tinker. I'm not too terribly concerned with how long it takes to configure everything, as that is kind of the fun part. I'd ideally like to install over the summer, so it would be nice to have everything installed by then.

Are you running the factory with navigation trim? I don't have a problem custom fabricating something, but I was hoping to use that piece to keep the look (I've currently got the metra kit and it is flimsy and ugly). I wont go smaller than a 7", but I was hoping to get an 8" screen in there.

To be honest, frontends and nav software are probably lowest on my list right now (need to get hardware and audio processing figured out). It seems like Centrafuse and RR have the largest install bases, so both must be pretty decent at what they do. However, RR is free so I'll probably start there. If I feel it is missing some key functionality, CF may end up being an option. I've already begun browsing/learning at mp3car and mo-co-so.

I doubt I'll be hibernating or sleeping much, I think I'll just shut all the way down. To be honest, running the OS from a SSD will help a bunch, so boot times shouldn't be that terrible (I'm fairly familiar with SSDs - my netbook boots Ubuntu off one, and my desktop boots Ubuntu off one or Vista off a pair in Raid 0). I think either XP or 7 will work well if I strip them down to core installs. The 4 gigs of ram would be beneficial in 7 though.

And, pardon my ignorance, but why the DPDT switch? For whatever reason I cannot see the benefit right now...

[Viper5000]

Here is my thread from when I did the install:

http://forums.altimas.org/zerothread?id=435366

The case is from mo-co-so.com, yes it has a PCI slot, I currently have a Creative XFi in there.

At first I was worried about heat in the glove box, but the computer was happy all throughout the Florida summer. *Note that I am using a Dual core atom processor which runs a lot cooler and slower than a traditional core2 model.

I recommend a on-off-on switch for the purpose of having a kill-switch/constant on variable...

1st position is normal on/off operation with ignition2nd is off completely (like when you move you car and you dont the comp to start up)3rd is on regardless of ignition (like when you want the car off, but PC on.)

regarding the monitor.... I didn't update my thread, but I installed a 7inch Lilliput with a custom double-din kit on top of the factory NAV kit and it fit perfectly..... this kit is made by by-byte, OR mo-co-so.com I believe still sells them pre assembled....

either way- this combo does work with the factory nav kit, *HOWEVER, it leaves a gap similar to what most of the double din decks do with it on the sides...I corrected this with a little bit of dremeling and an extra peice of the textured plastic that goes below the AC controls.... I will post a pic when I get a chance....

[shortys408]

how long does the OS take to start up? I'v always wanted to put my mac mini in my car and use it with front row. Can you put OS X on these windows based pcs?

[AppleBonker]

Now that you linked it, I feel like a noob for not having found that thread. Not to mention, I remember looking at it in the past (but it feels like a lot longer than a half year ago).

I do remember the switch now, and you're definitely right, that is something I'll need to take care of.

As far as the glove box goes, you're right that the E6300 will probably run warmer. Also, I'll need to have two hard drives in the case, so that starts to cramp that particular case a bunch. Finally, for whatever reason I don't believe my audio card fits into that PCI slot without some case modification first. I've seen an install log of a system very similar to what I'm planning (part of where I got a lot of my ideas from) that used your case. Plus, I've already got power easily accessible to me under the seats. Finally, running four pairs of RCA cables into the glove box (along with all required power/USB/etc) would make for quite a mess. Still an option, but I think for my install under a seat would work better.

I'm thinking about custom fabricating the screen. I'll probably pop off the trim first thing when I get it and make my own surround accordingly. This might help integrate the screen into the dash. I've got an extra trim kit for the navigation equipped coupe sitting somewhere. I'll need to get some measurements from it and then probably start playing around with a custom surround (the nice thing about the extra trim piece is I can leave my current setup untouched in the car while I build then new one).

Anyway, thanks for the help. Like I said, these conversations help me think things through a bit more thoroughly, so they are a huge help to me!

Edit: I think I remember reading that the M-Audio card has problems with hibernating or sleeping, so that might not even be an issue. The additional ram wont seem to hurt if I don't plan on hibernating/sleeping.
Modified by AppleBonker at 5:13 PM 1/12/2010

[AppleBonker]

how long does the OS take to start up? I'v always wanted to put my mac mini in my car and use it with front row. Can you put OS X on these windows based pcs?

It works with some configurations. You generally need to pick hardware very carefully (it's generally referred to as a "hackintosh"). As far as running a mac mini as a carputer, it has been done in the current gen sedan. I'll have to search but there is a thread somewhere (probably not on these boards though).

The OS boot time is dependent on a number of factors. My home PC boots from power on to usable desktop in under 40 seconds (with maybe 30-35 of that running though bios and bootloader - since I dual boot there's a 5-10 second delay built in before the computer selects my default OS). However, my carputer will not be a dual boot, and it will have far less software expected to run at startup. I'm currently leaning towards doing a completely stripped XP install. I wont know how long the car pc takes to boot until I build it!

[mrodrig2]

If you are going for micro-itx they already have prebuilt systems for around 200-300 bucks that are intended for HTPC purposes but will work nicely as carputers instead. Look into the Aspire Revo or really any dual core Atom with an Ion MB.

[AppleBonker]

If you are going for micro-itx they already have prebuilt systems for around 200-300 bucks that are intended for HTPC purposes but will work nicely as carputers instead. Look into the Aspire Revo or really any dual core Atom with an Ion MB.

The only problem with those options is that they don't have the audio control I'm interested in. I supposed I could go with a USB external solution, but those don't appear to work quite as well. The best external solutions are generally firewire to support the bandwidth required, but I still don't think those compare to the M-Audio unit I'm looking at. Since I'm trying to design this to replace my current audio processor, it needs to be able to keep up (and hopefully outperform).

[AppleBonker]

Another quick update. I think I've decided on an SSD upgrade. Because the mini ITX board I'm looking at supports SATA 3.0Gb/s I can get a faster drive. The original board I looked at only supported SATA 1.5Gb/s (I think) so the Intel X25-V would have had faster read speeds than the interface could support. Now that I'll have a faster interface available, it makes sense to go with a faster drive to take advantage. I think I'll be getting an Intel X25-M (which is double the capacity - unfortunately they don't make a 40 gig version with those speeds). I think this also makes me lean hard towards running Windows 7 so I can take advantage of TRIM support. Along with that, it looks like I'll almost definitely be going with Road Runner (it seems like the Centrafuse navigation software isn't quite as good) as the front end and most likely iGuidance for my GPS software. From what I can tell, Road Runner is probably a bit more powerful, but harder to configure. I should have more ability to customize, but the install will take longer. I can handle that.

It seems I've got most of the hardware plans laid out, so I am getting closer to purchasing. I want to make sure the case fits first, and then I will try to get some money together so I can begin the build. I also need to run some measurements on the navigation trim piece to see if I can squeeze an 8" screen in there. I'll be happy with 7" (which is more than I currently have with my W205), but the extra inch would certainly be nice.

[mrodrig2]

I'm going to guess that you already know, but mp3car.com is another good resource for parts and knowledge.

[AppleBonker]

I'm going to guess that you already know, but mp3car.com is another good resource for parts and knowledge.

That's actually where I've been doing most of my research. I found a similar build on a car audio site (not specifically dedicated to carputers). I don't much like linking to other forums outside of here (even though they're not competing), so I posted this here to keep my fellow A/C drivers up to speed. I have a similar thread running at mp3car, but I feel the discussions will be different here and there (probably a little bit more technical on that site - most of you aren't as big of nerds as I am). I'm hoping that the members here will give me more ideas that are specifically applicable to the A/C (where the members there will have minimal knowledge). I honestly can't wait to see what can be done with the OBD scanner. That plus WiFi in the car can come in pretty handy I would think...

[Viper5000]

OK, I went out and snapped a pic of what a 7 incher looks like in the dash... fills the space up nicely, this is a Lilliput 629 in a double din frame.... which can be had here at mo-co-so.com, either just the part, or pre-assembled from the guts

http://www.mo-co-so.com/category-s/26.htm



Looks about as stock as you can get with what I did with the side pieces of plastic

Im pretty happy with it even with the glue mishap in the right corner..

[AppleBonker]

That does look good. Though that pic tells me that I might be able to squeeze an 8" screen in there as well. It will require some cutting and then I'll have to make a custom surround to fill in the gaps and even everything out, but I think it can be done. I'll start taking a look at my extra trim piece I have and see what needs to be done. If I pull the screen out of it's casing, it should fit, but I'll need to get some better measurements on my prospective screen. It looks like the 8" Lilliput might work. Thanks for the picture!

[mrodrig2]

OK, I went out and snapped a pic of what a 7 incher looks like in the dash... fills the space up nicely, this is a Lilliput 629 in a double din frame.... which can be had here at mo-co-so.com, either just the part, or pre-assembled from the guts

http://www.mo-co-so.com/category-s/26.htm

Looks about as stock as you can get with what I did with the side pieces of plastic

Im pretty happy with it even with the glue mishap in the right corner..

Man, that looks awesome. The shroud you made matches perfectly.

[jusjus]

OK, I went out and snapped a pic of what a 7 incher looks like in the dash... fills the space up nicely, this is a Lilliput 629 in a double din frame.... which can be had here at mo-co-so.com, either just the part, or pre-assembled from the guts

http://www.mo-co-so.com/category-s/26.htm



Looks about as stock as you can get with what I did with the side pieces of plastic

Im pretty happy with it even with the glue mishap in the right corner..

Hey Viper! Where did u get those side pieces of plastic and how did u install them? They look awesome dude... Think it will work with any aftermarket doubledin deck? thx

[Viper5000]

yep this should work with the double dins if you want to use the oem nav kit..I used the interior trim piece that pops out under the A/c controls....

http://www.trademotion.com/par...gid=0

used a dremel to carve it to fit and tada!

[khisanthax]

Thanks for the ideas!

I just finished installing a carputer in my car. It's not perfect but it's good enough for what I want it to be.

I bought a used mini stealth pc from ebay, it comes with a 1.6 pentium m process, 40gb hdd and 512 mb, wifi and a pci/pcmcia slot. I'll do upgrades later. I don't have vga/digital monitors so I had to buy a pctotv converter that is powered by usb to convert my vga signal to composit which after a few daisy chains get's connected to the dvd/gps HU.

i have to run windows xp tablet edition in 600 by 800 otherwise I can't read anything and changed the dpi to 120 from 96.

I can successfully connect to youtube and have very little problems watching a flick. I have a usb bluetooth adapter that connects to my windows mobile phone using wmwifirouter. I had no problems at all watching music videos (well, my gf watched and I drove) while driving the car.

the only step i'm working on now is getting the BT on the carpc to recognize the bluetooth on the dvd/gps to get dragon naturally speaking working.

Im using some software by stardock.com to customize windows xp.

Oh, I also have a super nintendo emulator running on the carpc and finally I found a mini rf keyboard (BT) that charges by usb and has a touchpad that I will use to navigate the pc.

My only concers right now are heat dissipation, so if I can find some cheap usb fans, i'll connect that just to feel better.

Thanks again guys!!

[alekdigital]

Interesting!