M45 with new wheels, tires, springs. Suspension upgrade. 4-Door Porsche 928

Forum for Infiniti M35 and M45, and Nissan Fuga owners.
multisync1
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M45 with new wheels, tires, springs. Suspension upgrade. 4-Door Porsche 928

Postby multisync1 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Here is my M45 with the Volk Te37 wheels (bronze, silver and white are also available but silver is a special order -- takes longer).

They are 19x8.5 +29 offset in the front (weigh about 19 pounds) and 19x9.5 +43 offset in the rear (about 20 pounds). As reference, the original wheels which are 18x7.5 +35 offset weigh 26 pounds on the same bathroom scale.

The old wheels are cast aluminum, I believe. The Volk TE37's are forged all aluminum monoblocks. Forging is currently the best manufacturing technique for wheels as it produces a very lightweight wheel that is also very strong and resists bending. It is also very expensive. The wheels were $2350 including shipping (plus tax) for all four. The center caps are extra ($35 each).

I got them from speedstyles (http://www.speedstyles.com) in Charlotte, NC.

I got McGard *tuner* wheel locks to protect them (http://www.mcgard.com/automotive/new_prod.asp).

The tires are:Pirelli P-Zero Asymmetrico 245/40 19 front (24 pounds), 275/35 19 rear (27 pounds). The original 235/45 18's were about 25 pounds each. The tires were about $310 each for the 275's and $269 each for the 245's.

For some reason, the original wheel/tire combo (the spare tire) came out to 54 pounds. But (without the valve/stem/tire pressure sensor and weights) the wheels were 26 and the tires 25 separately (51 pounds total). I'm not sure why that is.

The rear fender lips had to be rolled so that they wouldn't rub against the tire sidewalls when the tire goes up into its wheel well. After that was done, there was no rubbing.

I've settled on 35 psi all around for now.

The tire pressure sensor meters on the original wheels fit on these wheels so I can see my tire pressures on the monitor. There was nothing special that needed to be done. Just use these in place of the wheel's own valve stems (the tire pressure sensors are the valve stems on the original wheels).

The car now rides on Eibach springs. As of the date of the pic, the springs had not yet fully settled (taken the day after installation). I've had them on for 10 days now and they are slightly lower but expect them to settle just a little more.

The ride with the new springs (and original struts) is definitely firmer but far from harsh. On most rough surfaces, you wouldn't even be able to tell they are different from the very smooth original equipment. You definitely feel them though the first time you take a turn. You will KNOW that you could have taken that curve much faster...there is almost no sway. You do have to slow down a little more for speed bumps (before I could just run right over them at 5-10 mph with little guilt, now it's a little stiff to do that) .

I would definitely do it again though as the safety and feeling of sure footedness of the car has obviously increased.

Before, I felt as though I could only approach about 7/10ths of the cars full performance potential. It seemed to wallow quite a bit and I did not feel comfortable using all that power in reserve. Now the wallow is nearly gone and there is very little squat when I either gun the throttle or hit the brakes. I can take it up to 9/10ths of it's potential now. Still waiting for Eibach to put out anti-roll bars for this car to hopefully close that gap even further.

The installation of the springs, tires on the new wheels along with the tire pressure sensors and the lip rolling was about $1000 in labor. Well worth it though as the installer (Cosentino Hi Lines, Charlotte, NC) did a superb job rolling the lips.

There is a little bit of negative camber on the rears now (negative camber is when the top of the wheel leans inward and the bottom outward). I will take it in for an alignment to the same installer after another 2-3 weeks to be sure that the springs have completely settled.

I don't have a digital camera yet, but will post pics as soon as I get one. Most people who see the car are amazed at the width of the rear tires. One person said they looked the size of a Corvette's rear tires.

I would definitely recommend doing this if you own an M45. The handling is much, much better now.

If the G35 is a gazelle on its feet, then I would have likened my M45 to a hippo before these mods (fast and powerful but not very nimble). Now I would liken it to a giraffe -- big yet graceful and very fast.

The best description of this car now (and I'm absolutely serious) is that it is just like the Porsche 928 S4 of old but with 4 doors.

I will post pics when I get a digital camera. For now, you can get an idea what the wheels look like on a 350z and what 19" wheels look like on the M45 from the bottom of this thread:http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....forum


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AZhitman
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Postby AZhitman » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

I love you.

:D

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maxnix
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Postby maxnix » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

These I want to see. I assume the load rating is sufficient?

Forged is best. Congratulations for doing it right.

multisync1
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Pics

Postby multisync1 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Here is a pic that speedstyles took of the car.

This site only accepts 300x300 and I don't have the tools to shrink the size. So I just cut it into two halves, the front and the rear.

Hopefully, once I get a cam, I'll be able to take a whole picture at less than 300x300...

multisync1
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oops

Postby multisync1 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

retry

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maxnix
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Postby maxnix » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

But you didn't have to roll the front lips?

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Postby AZhitman » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

No reason to.

They're only 245's. And if it's set up anything like the Q, the Q will accept 275mm of tread width at the proper offset at 26.1" OD.

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maxnix
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Postby maxnix » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Just checking, as I wasn't clear. It will be interesting to see if stock camber can be achieved again.

multisync1
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Postby multisync1 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

The front lips did not need to be rolled. There was no clearance problem with them.

My installer (Mark Cosentino of Cosentino Hi Lines in Charlotte) says there should be no problem adjusting the alignment. He recommends retaining about -2 degrees of camber on the rear though for cornering and high speed stability. I think that would be worth it, even though that might cause just a little more wear on the inside of the tire.

This particular installer just got done installing a 10 psi vortech supercharger on a 350z among other aftermarket parts. I saw it in the shop and that thing whines like a demon. I believe he said that he dynoed it at something like 460 wheel hp. He says the owner of the car was challenged by a Viper on the highway and he just dusted it.

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Falkdesigns
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Postby Falkdesigns » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Damn, nice ride! Jealousy and envy.... Great wheel choice, I had white TE-37's on my Civic Si a few years back. Ever popular, light and strong. Sweetness.

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Postby docsmile71 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

schweet....I've always wondered what TE37's would look like on a luxo car. It's definitely new. Looks almost like the NYPD police cruisers that have the black steel wheels...very stealth.

I think for a silver car, either Gunmetal or flat black would've looked very aggressive too.

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Postby Rex » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Follow the link in my sig to upload and post full size pics of that beauty.

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Postby elwesso » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Will you sell me your stock M45 rims??? :D

Very nice setup on an already GOLDEN car!

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Postby szh » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Doesn't rolling affect the paint? Or do you have to repaint after it is done?

Z

multisync1
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Postby multisync1 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Rolling lips can affect the paint, but my installer did something to protect it (I think he said he taped over parts of it and then heated up the metal so it would bend easier).

I may sell the original wheels later, I haven't decided yet. But if I do, I'll be sure to notify anyone on here who has expressed an interest.

Here is the picture of the car in its entirety (I'll upload more later, especially since the springs have settled more since this was taken):


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maxnix
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Postby maxnix » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Looks gorgeous ! And mean, too! And I was just in Charlotte too.

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Postby Altiman94 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

that is mean looking. Very nice choice on rims.

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Postby AZhitman » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Just plain wicked. Love it.

Needs a couple small NICO stickers, email me your address, multisync!

multisync1
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Postby multisync1 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Thanks Hitman, but I'm trying to keep the car as clean as possible. I even removed the Volk stickers from the new wheels.

Love this site though. Really great for trading information about upgrades, etc.

For anyone that's interested, here are the overall diameter formulas I used to choose the tire sizes:

Original equipment:((235*.45)/25.4)*2+18=26.3 inches overall diameter

Aftermarket tires:((245*.40)/25.4)*2+19=26.7 inches OD front((275*.35)/25.4)*2+19=26.6 inches OD rear

What the numbers mean:245 is the width of the tire in mm (in this case 245mm/25.4mm/1inch=9.65 inches wide). 40 refers to the profile which is 40% of the width of the tire ((245*.40)/25.4)=3.86 inches from the rim of the wheel to the tire tread. And 19 is the inside diameter of the tire (the size of the wheel it fits on).

To calculate different sizes from this formula, you would replace these three numbers. So, for example, on the original tires, the numbers are 235/45 18; to check a different size simply change those numbers in this formula "((235*.45)/25.4)*2+18=" with the new size and paste it into the Windows calculator. 25.4 is the conversion factor between inches and millimeters (25.4mm = 1 inch).

Here is a site which calculates wheel offsets:http://toy4two.home.mindspring.com/offset.html

So, in my example, with an OEM wheel width of 7.5 inches and an offset of 35mm, the new front wheels (8.5 inches, 29mm offset) extend out by 19mm (25.4mm is 1 inch) and are slightly closer to the strut by 7mm.

The rears (9.5 inches, 43mm offset) would extend out by 17mm and in by 33mm.

The front wheels are 215.9mm in width while the front tires are 245mm wide. There is a 29.1mm difference which helps protect the wheel from damage though a closer match helps in cornering as the sidewall would not bend as much under load.

The rear wheel width is 241.3mm compared to the tire width of 275mm (a 33.7mm difference).

The original wheels were 190.5mm wide and the original tires were 235mm wide (a 44.5mm difference). This would probably absorb bumps better but would also bend more in corners than a more closely matched tire/wheel width. Getting too close though (like a 255 series tire on a 10 inch or 254mm wide wheels, 1mm difference, could be asking for trouble if you hit a significant pot hole).

One really interesting wheel for the G35 (which I was thinking of getting before I decided on the M) is the Volk TE37 Mag. It's basically the same as the TE37 (i.e. forged) but is made using magnesium (which weighs less) rather than aluminum. The 18x8.5 wheels are 12.9 pounds according to some sources and it only comes in dark blue. They also come in 18.9.5 and 18.10 with various offsets for staggered front/rear combos. They are extremely expensive though at around $1500 each! http://rayswheels.co.jp/cgi-bi...37MAG

multisync1
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Postby multisync1 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Though the car is much better performing with the new suspension, there are a couple things that could be changed that would make it a much better car.

First, the transmission could be a little faster. As it is, when I gun the throttle, it takes a little bit of time to downshift. Also, the manumatic feature overrides my command when I try to downshift while braking (to get a little bit of engine braking around corners). I understand that the 2004's transmission has been upgraded to fix both these issues (on both the M and Q). Does anyone know if the fix is a hardware or software fix? If it's just software, would it be possible to flash the 2003's TSU with the transmission program for the 2004?

The second issue is the steering ratio. It's pretty slow for a car of this type. The steering ratio is the speed of steering you get when you turn the wheel. A faster ratio turns the wheels farther with the same turn of the wheel.

Here are some ratios I've found:cooper 12.88mitsu evo 13audi s4 14.5focus 14.7accord 14.96m3 15.4TT 15.6ls430 15.7g35 15.9350z 15.9corvette 16.1911 16.5maxima 16.6q45 18.1m45 18.4land rover 19.5qx56 19.5

As you can see, the M45's steering ratio is up there. This is good for high speed cruising (less twitchy, prevents a sneeze at 100mph from turning into an accident) but takes a great deal of turning while carving out curves during slower speeds. BMW has dealt with the high speed/low speed steering ratio compromise by coming out with a variable steering ratio mechanism which increases the steering ratio at speeds above 45mph and decreases it (speeds it up) for speeds below that.

Changing out the steering wheel for a shorter diameter wheel is the easiest way to speed up steering. I wouldn't do that though as this would delete the air bag packed in the original wheel.

Does anyone know of anything else that could be done to speed up the steering ratio? One installer suggested changing out a pulley for a smaller pulley but recommended against that fearing it might burn out the power steering. Any thoughts?

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Postby BB Turbo » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Thats just plain sexual.

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Postby Jesda » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

UNF UNF!

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Postby PalmerWMD » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Awesome!!!!!!

On this note: Does anyone know if level ten offers a tranny upgrade for the 2k3+ M45/Q45 drivetrain.

Fred...:)

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Postby Q45tech » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Doubt it the tranny is much lighter than the old 4 speed but survives with extra engine torque management via drive by wire.Similar to the TCS extra throttle flap to limit air during shifts.

There is a special version with much greater torque capacity on the QX56/pickups that should be available from wrecks.Haven't had a chance to see if the two have interchange able bolt ups.

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Postby multisync1 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

I've adjusted the tire pressures to 33 in the front and 38 in the rear and that seems to have helped out handling quite a bit.

The car is glued to the ground and handles pretty much like a far more expensive sports car.

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0-60 times and braking distances for the M45 (with new wheels and tires)

Postby multisync1 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

I did some 0-60 times on this car as well as braking distance measurements (using a G-tech Pro competition accelerometer which is advertised as being accurate to within 0.05 seconds). I couldn't do a 1/4 mile test as that would have put me around 100mph and I was doing the testing on some back roads (didn't want to get a ticket).

Out of 15 runs the best 0-60 time was about 5.8 seconds and the worst about 6.3 seconds. The 15 runs averaged 6.1 seconds. The temperature at the time was 65 degrees and the barometric pressure was 29.9 inches.

Acceleration hasn't changed much from what C/D and R/T tested for this car (5.7 and 6.1 seconds respectively).

Braking distances did improve considerably, however, most likely due to the far stickier Pirellis (and greater contact patches due to the wider wheels -- 1 extra inch in the front and 2 in the rear) and to a lesser extent due to the lesser weight of the tire/wheel combination.

Results:80 to 0 at 198 feet 70 to 0 at 151 feet60 to 0 at 110 feet

The braking results are comparable to some of the best cars in the world.

The G-Tech accelerometer does measure lateral g's, but I couldn't find a way to capture the greatest g's during cornering (the numbers constantly change). During braking, the G-Tech captured a maximum g-force of 1.17 g's (which doesn't really reflect what the maximum lateral g's are during cornering though).

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Postby Falkdesigns » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

That's awesome. I love the current M's.

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Postby szh » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Falkdesigns wrote:That's awesome. I love the current M's.
Same here!!! :D

Z

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szh
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Re: 0-60 times and braking distances for the M45 (with new wheels and tires)

Postby szh » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

multisync1 wrote:Out of 15 runs the best 0-60 time was about 5.8 seconds and the worst about 6.3 seconds. The 15 runs averaged 6.1 seconds. The temperature at the time was 65 degrees and the barometric pressure was 29.9 inches.


Was the VDC off, I hope? I have found that to mess up clean launches sometimes ...

Z

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Postby rsiwicki » Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm

Wow!!! Sweet numbers....and love the braking.


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