M35X Steering Complaints

[SteveTheTech]

Hello M owners.

I see there are numerous threads in this forum addressing a binding/noise/vibration or something happening on almost full right turns. Some of you know me here, I love chasing things like this and I am volunteering my time to track this down, yeah they don't like to pay us to figure things like this out. I think it is worth my time as it can serve many people both here and customers that come into my shop, plus getting a TSB issued would pretty cool (well not for you guys but in my little world).

Whether it is a software re-flash or some component you are going to need to be patient, this will not be resolved overnight even when we find it. The initial component will need to be identified I will see if the part number is superceded. If it is a electronic re-flash that is required that will take some time, I have no idea how the computer technology system works at the highest level so I will do my best once it is out of my hands to let you know.

Many of you have had a rack and pinion assembly replaced or other components. I wanted to let you know that I finally found a willing participant to let me use their car for some diagnostic fun. Many of the people here with X models have experienced this and it only seems to be them and not the RWD or M45 models. My manager is giving me the nod to do what needs to be done to find this, he has heard the complaints from customers and I shared your stories with him.

I want to keep you up to date on what I find and what I have been told by corporate. Basically it boils down to they have no idea, I spoke with a few people that all have their own ideas. They do know about this and have made several attempts to resolve this but due to scheduling conflicts they have not been able to put the required time in to give the cars a proper cold soak. It really can only be done once a day.

I am currently testing a customers car using something called Chassis Ears which uses vibration transferring clamps to reproduce a noise via headphones. The really nice thing about this M is that it has a DVD player and AUX inputs so I can wire it directly through the radio making the noise easier to trace. I expect this to take a few days, there are a few theories I have and things I am going to check/modify one at a time until I find what is the root cause.

This morning I spent about an hour driving an M35X with a computer on my lap staring at live data from the AWD system.(I did this in an empty local parking lot) I did find out something that I didn't know, the AWD system energizes from a stop without having the snow mode engaged. It's application current varies greatly depending on throttle input.

Below are a few pics of where I put the clamps, in addition to the two below there is one mounted on the ABS pump and one mounted on the side of the front differential. I plan on leaving this clamps where they are and changing certian input signals to see if a variation in input will effect output noise.



Hang in there we'll get it.

[lawcdav1]

Steve,

I just want to take the time to thank you for all you do....I am currently stationed in Northern VA and I also have had noise issues from the right turns that i make in my 2006 M35X. My service manager has done all he can do to fix the problem. As of today, he informed me that a technician will be coming out to diagnose my issues and they will do all they can to resolve it. Again, thank you for your posts and I look forward to finding out what your results will be.

Very respectfully Lawcdav

[striz923]

Yet again thanks for going above and beyond your job to try to find solutions to problems.

[Bruno]

That is awesome. Thank you in advance for your hard work at figuring this out.

[SteveTheTech]

Well here is where we are at so far.

I set my test M35x up with the chassis ears and parked it in a place where no one else you touch it, this allows for a sufficient cold soak, plus I have wires and testing equipment everywhere.

I have been taking it out twice a day, one in the early morning and once at about 5-6pm. I can usually get the noise to occur but it is happening for <1 second on average and usually not more than 5 times. So I have to drive it, verify it is in the mood to do it, then modify something then observe my live data numbers and graphs. I am running into a problem with running the test I cannot for some reason monitor the data for the ABS sensors with the ABS active. It's a little frustrating to say the least. I have found that if the VDC is off the noise doesn't present itself.... I wish I had a little more for you all at this time. At this point it does not seem like there is a problem component per say it seems like things are working too well. I also have a test EX35 (similar complaint) that I am having no luck in getting it to act up. I need think I will need to wait until I get an EX in with a more substantiated concern, the EX is not acting up or it is not the component I suspect.

Getting a fix out will take time, I really appreciate your patience. The reason they have not been able to narrow down the culprit. The time required is hard for the traveling DTSs to swing since they are often scheduled to be all over the region in a normal week.

Stay tuned...

[dibs618]

This is the complaint I have with my m35x. On many occasions I can reproduce the noise on the hard right hand turn even without a cool down.

In a parking lot I stop the car. Turn the wheel all the way to the right, them a quarter turn (90 degrees) back to the left. Somewhere between 2-5 mph, only on gentle acceleration, I can reproduce the noise. On acceleration while gently turn back and forth the noise is profound, but this also, is intermittent.

[DashingMax]

This whole M35x Steering issue is what made me pick the M45!Great job SteveTheTech! You're an asset to this community!!

[MagicM]

I have a07 M35x and i have had this issue since day one, ive sent it to the dealer and they say they can't duplicate the problem. When i leave in the mourning and the first hard right turn i do i always hear a vibration Wahhhhhhhh sound. i hope you can figure out wtf it is.

[lawcdav1]

Ok everyone, just got my car back from the service department again. The lastest info they could tell me this time was that the engineers are working on the issue. I have contacted a Lemon Law agency and explained my ongoing issue about this and I was advised to write Infiniti and provide documentation of the problem. Along with the service documentation I was advised by a Lemon Law lawyer to request a buyback of the vehicle. Not sure what's gonna happen but I'm fed up. The car is my primary mode of travel for my business and this needs to end. I really enjoy the car but I just can't keep going like this, my biggest fear is that a fix will come and my car will be out of warranty. Will keep you posted in the following weeks on the results of my request.

[SteveTheTech]

Lawcdav1~Please forgive my bluntnessI have to ask you an honest question. As I have seen a few people take this avenue over my career. I have always wanted to ask a few questions that the presumed anonymity of the internet allows me to ask without negative financial implications.

First off I want to make sure we are talking about the same issue. The vibration/binding sensation on right turns while accelerating? If you are talking about the leading on highway driving with certain road conditions, than that can be remedied by new tires. As seen in other threads.

If you indeed really like your M and you are trying to get a buy back for a momentary noise that only happens on right turns while changing both your X and Y axis, turning the wheel <400* to the right and accelerating? Why? It seems like a software glitch more than a mechanical failure, as any relevant components has already been replaced on your car. If you really like your M so much why would something like that make you want to sue the company over it? Was it the service that you were provided that inspired your recent actions? Did this forum (or other internet based resources) inspire you to want out now? If you could drop your M tomorrow what would you get into?

I understand you are paying for a premium car and it shouldn't have any character flaws, but it is still a machine. Regardless of the sticker price it will always be a well choreographed balance of metal, wires, other materials that are put into non natural formation with the sole intention of carrying you and your passengers safely from one place to another.

I have always wondered about buy back proceedings. I only get to experience my end which is more likely than not the result numerous hours of chasing and testing and mechanical labor. As a fan of the Infiniti brand I ask you this based more on my love for the product, not my profession. It is a shame to see that it has come to this point with your M and I hope you get the results you are gunning for.

GL

[M4T5]

Steve, Whats so different on the X model M's front end components compared to the RWD models? What AWD electrical system is tied into the steering system?Can you remove the front CV's, front diff, and front drive shaft from the car and still drive it? It sounds stupid, but it could tell you what electrical part(s) are causing the noise.Is everyone dead certain that the steering has to be turned to make it cause that noise?If it does has to be turned to cause the noise, then does this happen only in reverse or will it do it in drive as well?I guess I would also need to know if the AWD system engages all of the time or some of the time. Is there a solenoid that engages the system? Just trying to through my brains out there to you for some opinions on solutions is all.

J

[lawcdav1]

Steve......

I understand and appreciate your concern. Here's the story:

I bought the car in Dec 08 (used and a previous lease return) in MD. The CARFAX stated that the car had no mechanical recalls, defects or damages (i.e. accidents). The vehicle performed great for about two days (no noise) from slow right turns. Does the noise present itself when I'm parked? No. The only time I hear the loud sound that it makes is when I begin to pull out of a parked space and turn right; somewhere from 5-10 mph and the sound it makes is comparable to metal bending or twisting. The steering is great, however when making right turns it sounds as if my axle is about to come off.

Do I love the car? Yes, I have no other problems with previous Infiniti's I've owned in the past (G35 Coupe/Sedan). That being said, I should have done a more research. If I could get another M35/45 I would in a heartbeat. I'm not trying to draw out my situation; I just want individuals in power to take note that this is an issue and not just with lawcdav1.

Was it the service? No, the service at Tysons and Passport were great.

Steering: Steering is fine, I got all new tires and alignment. Good to go!

I build ships for the Navy and I have engineers that work make over $100k a year and it kills me that I have to threaten to pull their contract unless they agree to abide by the demands they initially specified.

So if my car has a warranty, then by rule of thumb Infiniti should meet or beat my demand or request. To tell a customer that Infiniti engineers are spread thin is unsatisfactory, there are too many young engineers emerging from top universities such as MIT, UMASS, and DEVRY hungry for positions of employment in today’s society.

Would I buy another Infiniti? Yes. I love the car, just not the problem. I've had the steering rack replaced twice and a new steering pump.

Steve, long story short I just want another M

[M4T5]

Steve,

One other question. If this problem is known by the Infiniti engineers, then why aren't ALL of the dealerships informed of this issue?? Why is Infiniti wasting their money of steering rack and power steering pump replacement repairs?? Obviously a lot of the dealerships are not aware of this problem with the X series M's.Just does not make sense to replace items that are not defected!

J

[SteveTheTech]

Thank you very much for your response I was hoping I was not getting to personal, or over stepping the thin line in the sand.

I will be the first to admit the members of Nico have taught me so much about the actual people who's cars I drive and service on a daily basis. From my end many people tend to see them as just another number.I have always tried to treat your cars as if they were my mother in laws car. Typically there is very little personal connection other than your interaction with the service consultant.Now I'm getting off topic.

I understand your frustration, since you bought it recently you may have a better shot going to the selling dealer. As not being the first owner you will have an uphill battle with Infiniti, making a long process even longer, and if you hire a lawyer I can imagine a retainer would be required.

lawcdav1 I guess good help is hard to find in all tax brackets. Although regardless of how much money you make there are some things that you do not want to do. There are people in management and ops could use a wake up call.

There is an abundance of skilled engineers out there, that is not the issue. Some with that new college smell do not typically know the product and they do not usually fit the requirements to be a dealer tech rep, although sales and service/parts operations are open to any warm body with a 4yr degree, they set the bar low and turnover is high. Plus Infinitis regions are weird so one Rep covers from the NC/SC line to KY/WV and all the way up to PA. They must cover both Nissan product complaints and Infinitis and be company reps in any litigation. They are indeed stretched thin, as a good amount of the support staff has been "thinned".

The noise may be addressed with an update I have sent my local rep all the information I have gathered over the past few weeks, I have yet to hear back from him.....We'll see what happens. We now for sure there is nothing in the steering system. It has allot to do with the AWD and ABS systems interacting with each other, then the next question would be why doesn't it do this on left turns? Yeah I don't know, This is why I'm thinking it's a software glitch. Using the Chassis Ears I mounted a clamp on every component of the front end that doesn't rotate. There is nothing loose, on the one that I tested and there are actually several very faint noises that are detected if you listen close enough. I amplified everything and in the fraction of a second that it occurs is really complicating any diagnosis, and the weather has not been cooperating.

As for not all dealers knowing the same things, you must remember that every dealer is independently owned and operated, and their is no test to own one if you've got the capital. Infiniti tries to keep a heavy thumb on us about all aspects of our operation, except things like this. The middle management both in most dealers as well as the company are great at suggesting things to improve, although they fall short of accomplishing anything. From what I have witnessed in many dealers the company reps come down to "check up on things" and give some pointers to see what we can do to earn that extra .1 point on our csi. For the most part they are wet behind the ears and lack the common sense that you only get from working in this environment for years

There are many of us who work not just for the money, we genuinely want to provide excellent service and as with any job there are always things that get under your skin. To make a long rant longer, If you are serious about bailing on your car or pursuing Consumer Affairs, I wish you luck , really you should be driving/paying for something you enjoy and it is for the members here that I have tried and done everything thing I can to try to give you an answer, I hate to see people bail on great cars, but sometimes the little things get to people.

[SteveTheTech]

Steve, Whats so different on the X model M's front end components compared to the RWD models? What AWD electrical system is tied into the steering system?Can you remove the front CV's, front diff, and front drive shaft from the car and still drive it? It sounds stupid, but it could tell you what electrical part(s) are causing the noise.

J

These are very good questions, and I will do the best I can to provide information I can I have read the related sections of the ESM a few times thinking about possibilities.

I'm going to try to break these up into separate answers;

Whats so different on the X model M's front end components compared to the RWD models? The steering knuckle and wheel hub are the same I am not sure if the rack is the same but the subframe and lower oil pans are different. There is also the additional weight and rotational mass on the x model.

What AWD electrical system is tied into the steering system? This is a tricky one. The primary AWD control device uses input from the ABS system to control torque split. The steering angle is constantly monitored by the brake system via a clock spring inside the steering column. All of the separate control circuits are liked and share data.

Can you remove the front CV's, front diff, and front drive shaft from the car and still drive it? It can be done, but I really do not know if the front final drive would not be damaged in testing. I removed the AWD system from my test vehicle and it didn't make any noise but it is not possible to safely remove a drive shaft or propeller shaft, only removing electronic control of a component. The down side to this typical testing method with new cars is the CAN network, once a fault is detected in one drive system they all develop communication (U1000,U1001) codes and go into fail safe. So it's basically all or nothing.

Is everyone dead certain that the steering has to be turned to make it cause that noise?If it does has to be turned to cause the noise, then does this happen only in reverse or will it do it in drive as well?I guess I would also need to know if the AWD system engages all of the time or some of the time. Is there a solenoid that engages the system? Just trying to through my brains out there to you for some opinions on solutions is all. This is a large one as it is kind of scattered but I am following you. Here are my thoughts. Do you notice the noise with the wheel straight? Most do not, so it means that the components need to be loaded in a certain way. Turning to the right is what I find intriguing about this and what sets this aside from other common issues. For a while I have seen scattered complaints of things like this and have not been able to duplicate them. There are a few normal operating noises that occur when the conditions are met (VDC and ABS application and turning parts make strange noises).

The AWD system uses variable current control to vary the torque split (a unique benefit of the ATTESSA system). Check out the TF section of the ESM if you want to read more about it.

Again Sorry for the ranting. I had a few hours to kill, I left work early today.

[lawcdav1]

Hello all,

Just checking in to see if anyone has found any new information regarding this thread. I'm still waiting to hear from consumer affairs.

lawcdav1

[SteveTheTech]

I'm having the same discussion with the members of the EX forum. I would like to give you an update I shared with them recently.

Many dealers may not have experienced this concern but I can assure you that the company knows and is working on it.

There are a few things I have learned the company is working on getting it all together, but given the broadness of the concern it is going to take some time before any official word. Hang in there it'll be over soon.

Oh and as a side note. The noise I spent many hours chasing is not the same noise. Apparently there are two separate noises. One noise is a quick electronic buzz, that is the one I was hunting. The primary noise is almost a grinding sound. I was driving an M after a routine service and experienced this, and I had a true moment. So you all are not alone, once I experienced that I now know why they were chasing steering related components. I understand your frustration and I'm with you.

In driving with a customer the noise they were describing was a much fainter split second buzz that you could feel in the floor. That is what I was after.

Forgive me for letting this update fall by the wayside, this is going to take a little while and at the moment I am unsure of what they are going to do to resolve this but it's going to take time to manufacture and distribute this item, then they need to produce a TSB with information on how to replace this part.

I'll let you all know when they come out with it, although in all honesty you guys usually find things out before me.

[lawcdav1]

Thanks again Steve, I'm just getting back from Mardi Gras and I saw my poor baby dirty so I took her for car wash. Will check in with you later next month. Cheers!!

[SteveTheTech]

Mardi Gras FTW If I were able (by able I mean single, ) Mardi Gras looks like an awesome party. Southern food is my absolute favorite style so I would spend more time at the oyster bar than tossing beads, maybe I'm just getting old.

When I hear word about part availability I'll email you if you would like.

[dibs618]

sorry, I've missed something here. what part? What is a TSB?

[szh]

sorry, I've missed something here. what part? What is a TSB?

TSB = Technical Service Bulletin.

Things that Infiniti issues after the full Service Manual is printed. Generally, it is related to things they changed or added clarification for. Some of them are also related to problems they find and then send out corrective actions for.

Generally, these Service Manuals and TSBs only get set sent to the dealerships. However, I am trying to get the TSBs loaded to our Manuals site here at NICO - same place as the Service Manuals.

Z

[dibs618]

Thanks,My car is just out of warranty.The important question...do I have to pay for this new part?

[lawcdav1]

That would be great if you could email when the fix comes out!!! My email address is [email protected] again!!!

[Mattinarlington]

Okay, like many of you guys I'm having the same exact issue. I'm also in the Northern VA / DC area. I've taken it to Infiniti of Tysons Corner and had my steering rack replaced. The noise seems to be even worse. I park in an underground garage and have to make repeated sharp right turns in the tight garage. I'm reminded of this daily. I'm visiting family in Louisville KY and took my car to Swope Infiniti today. They checked out the car and said that it was a heat shield near the front brake rotor. I bought my car with about 37,000 miles on it back in September last year. The brakes needed to be replaced and the (non Infiniti) dealer obviously used aftermarket brake pads. Swope Infiniti is telling me that someone bent the heat shield when they installed the brakes and that's what the noise is. I think they're crazy. They didn't seem to know anything about the problem. Has anyone else been told this about the brakes? They want about $400 to replace the front pads and say that that will fix the problem. Should I replace the pads with Infiniti ones?

[SteveTheTech]

Hey Matt Welcome to the Nico M forum

I don't really know where to start so I may rant a little.

Your car may well have the noise discussed in this thread. If you have an 06 and maybe early 07 M35x and you hear a noise on right turns (not full lock) while accelerating. I have identified several small noises that are normal and there is one loud buzzing that can be felt in the steering wheel. If you have this noise it may also be accompanied by a damaged heat shield, they are only thin pieces of stamped metal and bend/marr easily. If the installer of your brakes deformed the plate and the noise went undetected the constant rubbing would eventually eat away at the contacting piece of metal this usually happens in a week or so. It's possible to pick up a rock or some other debris and getting it stuck behind the rotor. Aftermarket brakes tend to make more noise than the OE, although if you are racing or aggressively driving the aftermarket compromises may be worth some noise but that's another thread.

[Mattinarlington]

Thanks Steve! You Rock!

My car is a 2007 M35X. It seems to be the same problem that others are having. I've had is at Tysons a number of times. They have looked over it extensively and made no mention of the brakes / heat shield.

It made the noise before I took delivery of the car. I bought it from a non Infiniti dealer and took it off the lot to have it checked over first. I was told that the noise was most likely the brakes that were worn down so they were replaced. After making the deal and taking the car home I noticed the noise continued. Obviously it was making the noise before the brakes were replaced. It needed new pads - they were replaced but it's still making the noise.

It's been making the same noise for the 6 months I've had the car. I understand that the heat shield may be bent or have been bent - But I'm doubting that that's the noise that I'm hearing. The brakes seem to be doing well - I'm not getting any excess wear. I replaced the original tires that others seem to have issues with and had the car aligned.

While the heat shield might have been bent why would it be making the noise when making a right turn at low speed. It seems to be even worse when I'm going up the incline and turning right to exit the garage. If it were the heat shield and as the tech says " making a noise under load pressure " why would it only present itself at low speed right turns? Why not left turns? I admit I'm not mechanical and can't visualize what a " heat shield " is. I just don't want to drop $300-400 for new front pads and the tech "bending the shield back" (for which they'll charge me 1 hour labor for) if the noise won't stop. If I pay for them to do that and the noise continues what am I supposed to do? Ask them to give me my money back or take the pads back off? They of course charged me a ridiculous diagnostic charge to tell me that and say they've never heard of any M35X noise as described here.

[SteveTheTech]

Your complaints bring up a point I would like to address real quick. Diagnosing Noise,Vibration,and Harshness concerns is damn near impossible without a clear path to go in, as you can see from my experiences in this thread. I am not speaking for or against any dealer or service techs ability to find the noise you are describing but we are all only human. This is a prime reason to take a ride with your tech when dropping your car off for service, get to know them if frequently get your service done at the same place you will most likely have the same person working on your car every time you go in. It's always good to at least know who the people who you hand your keys over too. Doing that may help your overall experience and any problems or concerns you are experiencing are better when we can talk to the driver instead of reading a line or two on the repair order.

Who was charging you for diagnosis time?

Is your car under warranty? If so they shouldn't be charging you for steering concerns.



#3 is the backing plate, it's the best illustration I could find.

[lawcdav1]

Hello all,

Just received the best news of the week (or at least it made me feel good) in response to my letter to INFINITI CONSUMER AFFAIRS. Today a young lady called in reference to the problems listed in this blog and assured me that a fix for this particular problem is coming out soonest and that I should continue to contact my detailer regularly. When I asked specifics she could only tell me that I will know within the next 45 days or so. I then asked, "are the engineers gonna put this out to the dearlers in a TSB"? Her answer was "yes". With that being said, hang in there everyone and continue to talk to your service technicians. They will know before you will, rest assure.

Steve, if i find out before you do, i will be sure to update you ASAP!!

LAWCDAV1 OUT:

[xsbc63x]

so is their a fix out for this problem yet?

[choochmpls]

Thanks Lawcdav1. Please keep us posted.