M35x snow performance

[lreinstein]

We had our first snow of the year. About an inch or two fell and it was quite slippery. It gave me a chance to test my new M35x with AWD.

My impression was-- i was not impressed. It was difficult to maintain control around curves and the rear kept skidding out while climbing the hill to my house.

Does anyone have any direct knowledge on how this car compares to other AWD vehicles in the snow? I know our Subaru Outback does a much better job.

[scjconsulting]

You are a victim of the really bad OEM all-weather tires that come the M. The AWD is not enough to make up for the bad tires.

Any car, even an AWD one, will gain an extra 1/3 traction ability with snow tires. If you go that way, buy them in the 17" size and get steel rims. The 17" size will give you better traction and you will be glad to not have to pay for the extra cost to put on and take off snows on your current alloys. Except for the M35X, I did it this way for 15 years, including 3 Audi Quattros.

For the M35X, I got a set of Nokian WR all-weather tires to replace my OEM tires. I no longer had room for an extra set of tires and have had them during the last 2 Minnesota winters. I have been very happy with them.

[lreinstein]

I think i will wait a year before investing in new tires. i appreciate the advice, but have spent all my money on the new car.

[maxnix]

I think i will wait a year before investing in new tires. i ... have spent all my money on the new car.

Ooooops! Even new car owners need a cash kitty for maintenance, fuel, insurance, non-covered damage, and appropriate tires for the season.

Remember, "all season" is a marketing myth for gullible consumers. They are not meant for over .5" of snow or ice at all.

[antzrus]

I put a set of all season ContiExtremeContacts on and my X plows through the ice and snow; just a biacch stopping her-as w/any tire. Great in dry too and cheap; approx $150 US per tire and no seasonal tire changing.

[lreinstein]

Thanks for the suggestions. I was feeling "buyer remorse" since the main reason i bought the M35x was for the snow...and last night i had trouble handling it. I also think i need to get used to the way it handles and steers as with any car.

About Braking: I thought my car would be totaled as I tried to stop on the exit ramp (down grade ending at busy intersection). I did what i thought i was supposed to do in slippery conditions, that is, fully brake to allow the ABS computer to do its thing. This seemed to not be the best way..since the brakes appropriately pulsed but the car kept going and going! As I saw my life pass before my eyes I tried instead to just gently give the car partial braking with a softer push on the brake pedal. Fortunately this seemed to work better and I came to a stop. I tried this a few times later and it was repeated.

ANY EXPLANATIONS?

[maxnix]

ANY EXPLANATIONS?

Yes, very simple!

You don't have winter tires! Why do you expect your car to perform like it does?

[antzrus]

Geeez, if you're on the OEM Goodyear RSA's-regardless of the pulsing or your skilled braking techniques, you can kiss your derrière goodbye!!

After driving my X home (I purchased it in Sheridan, WY) thru 900 miles of snow, rain and slush on the OEM tires, I immediately switched to the Conti's. It was like night and day. The literally violent tramlining completely ceased and the damn thing is now a snow plow as I have been to Canada numerous times and thru our own snow storms here in Wenatchee, WA.

As w/any machine on snow and ice, you just really need to be careful re stopping. The automatic pulsing is just meant to keep you from sliding while you brake, giving you a better chance to maneuver around obstacles rather than crashing into them; you've gotta' be more careful bro.

The major problem in snow I found was the low road clearance. I had one of the thin plastic (!) skid plates crumple on me when I went over a low snow bank and it sounded like my bottom was ripped out!! I've since replaced it with some steel plating. I really have a lot fun now in the snow.

[lreinstein]

OK OK! I get it. ANd i will look into getting them. do i just throw these tires away?

Is there consensus on some good choices in tires that are pretty available?

[exbmwdude]

This is why Audi used to (don't know if they still do) offer an off switch for ABS during the winter. Due to the "showplow" effect a stopped tire in the snow will stop faster than one pulsed with ABS. Of course you lose any steering without ABS but you will stop faster and maybe avoid hitting that object in front of you .

Bottom line - take it VERY easy in the snow and ice as your level of grip is way, way below what it is in the dry...

exbmwdude2006 M35S (parked for the winter, driving the winter beater now...)

[lreinstein]

By the way, what are the standard OEM tires that were supplied on my Infiniti M35x?

I know, I can just look .... but it is buried under snow right now.

Larry

[jwheaton]

I am waiting to get my winter tires put on my M35x and my 06 Pontiac Vibe AWD with some Kumho winters is getting driven exclusively right now.

AWD will NOT help you without the extra grip you get with winter tires.

Also, I've read that below 7 degrees Celsius (45 F) any all season tires become useless because the rubber isn't made for anything below that temp, it gets too hard and you lose grip.

If you live in an area where it is routinely colder than 7C and snows, you need winter tires.

The province of Quebec here in Canada has made them mandatory, and I hope they do it for the rest of Canada as well, I am tired of getting in close calls or being stuck on the highway because people with their oem all seasons try to drive in the snow and ice - with or without awd - and cause accidents or spin out or get stuck etc.

I know they seem expensive, but would you rather trash your beautiful new car? or far worse hurt yourself or someone else?

[jwheaton]

Sorry for the rant It is a pet peeve of mine

[lreinstein]

problem with winter tires is not the expense....it is that we have no place at all to store them. i prefer a good all season that has reasonable traction in snow.

as i said, i never had problems with my subaru outback with goodyear tires

[tkeskic]

I here that Nokian makes a really good winter/summer tire; that may solve your problem; Check out there website at http://www.nokian.com

Also; there is TONS of places around that will store winters/summers for you for a small fee; many of the car dealers here in my town have rented farm land, and will lock up tires in an old trailer for something silly like $8/month

There are options if you have no space; check with the local tire guys and see what they offer for storage;

In my opinion, you should NOT compromise safety for a few bucks or for lack of storage. AWD is not the answer its part of the solution; and tires are very critical;

The OEM tires (the goodyear RSA All Season), that are likely what you have are horrible winter tires, and average at best for summer. It is well worth your safety and that of others to find a solution to your space problem, that allows you to use true, good grip winters.

I have the AWD and I switch winters/summers there is no comparing the two type in cold weather, and for traction (stop, go or tracking in turns).

I just had a friend total a BMW M3, while waiting for his winters with his worn out summers with a little water on the road... $85,000 toasted for $2000 in tires...

tk

[antzrus]

Hey guys-don't rant, but unless you are Sergeant Preston of the Yukon living up @ Fairbanks, AK dedicated snow tires to a tire like the ContiExtremeContact is like comparing a 175 mm howitzer to a 155 mm gun respectively. They both will get the job done; but the 155 is cheaper and easier to maintain; it just needs a little more precise skill in its use than the bludgeoning 175.

My two cents.

But damn, if you really wanna' know my 1971 Saab 99E w/its regular tires was the best damn snow machine I've ever driven. I never got stuck in the damn thing and it handled like a dream. In fact the Vail, CO police Department for a number of years drove the damn things thru all kinds of snow; no problem!!

[joemezz]

I do the summer/winter swap with Vredestein Ultrac Sessanta's in the summer and Vredestein Wintrac Extreme's. I was a tremendous difference once I put these on and replaced the OEMs. I love them both! Great traction/cornering in both rain or snow. Outstanding on dry pavement. I will always get these as replacements in the future.

[lreinstein]

You raise and interesting point ... which is really my question: given the same tires, how does the 35x compare to other AWD's in snow handling--- such as the Saab or my old Subaru Outback or any other of the Lux AWD vehicles?

[tkeskic]

I also have a ML330 CDI which is full time AWD; it performs better than the M35x, mainly because the M35x is not full time AWD, however, with decent tires on it it performs pretty well; you will get some fish tailing, if using the gas pedal on corners you may get some other slip situations (but limited); VDC kicks in nice;

Also; there is a snow mode that you can turn on, next to the seat heaters, that I believe leaves the AWD on longer and makes the VDC system more aggressive in its control; and I find that is helpful also;

The full time AWD of my other car is better, but frankly is not enough of a difference for the kind of money that car cost compared to the M35x; I'm very pleased with the M35x AWD system;

And for the record - our winters here consist of a wide and varied type of snow; we get some very warm weather that melts the snow; and then over night it freezes into a ice rink; then we get another few inchs of snow on top of that, and it repeats with some regular nature... I dont think that many other parts of North america can go from 30 below freezing to 10 above in 1/2 a day...

my point before was, if space was the problem, there are choices, nokian i heard make a tire that is "all season" that performs well in both summer and winter, and gets the job done, with a decent price point;

if that choice of tires happens to be as antzrus suggests a contiextremecontact; then so be it - I think most of us have offered opinions, and tips (which is what I think you asked for).

For the record I also had a 1996 camaro rear wheel drive V8 that was like a puck on ice with the all seasons, but a set of goodyear GW+ at the time made that car stick to the snow & ice really well - driving habits are very helpful, good grip is more important once you assume you know how to properly drive in that weather.

Good luck with your decision

[lreinstein]

Thank you tkeskic

You raise some valuable points. I wonder if I would have been better off with the M35 instead of the x, and just got better tires.

I will heed everyones advice as best I can. It seems that now I have 2 choices:

1. Keeping the OEM (Eagles) for warm weather and buying dedicated snow tires for the cold season.

2. Putting on a set of BETTER all season tires.

I am (probably futile) asking my dealer why he did not mention that better tires were available when he knew I was concerned about handling in snow. maybe they can cut me a deal?

[scjconsulting]

I am (probably futile) asking my dealer why he did not mention that better tires were available when he knew I was concerned about handling in snow. maybe they can cut me a deal?

Lots of luck on that one.

I remember when Audi was selling most of their Quattro cars with summer tires. After some problems (probably lawyers), they started requiring that buyers knew and signed the recommendation for winters tires.

[tkeskic]

lreinsteinThank you for the note;I do not have any regrets in buying the AWD drive. If you want to get a feel for your comfort with the OEM's, find your self an empty parking lot, and see how well it sticks in turns, braking etc to be aware of the tires performance; In the second winter I would say you really need to consider new tires like suggested here - I find (think) that all OEM tires wear fast for some reason and the tread depth on the second winter will really hurt these tires in the snow;

Every time I get a new car, I find it very useful to find a parking lot with some snow and ice, and see what she will do... I have no regrets on my choice of AWD... or with my M35 - this is my favorite car I have every purchased...

[antzrus]

snip... I have no regrets on my choice of AWD... or with my M35 - this is my favorite car I have every purchased...

Ditto

[lreinstein]

Thanks to all. I followed up on one suggestion and confirmed that yes indeed ... My Tire dealer will store my tires for me (" only because I am a good customer").

So now I need to decide which tire. I assume a "performance winter" tire is best. When I sort on Tirerack, it turns out that there are not many choices for this wheel size (245 45 R 18). Cross checking against consumer reports ratings, there are clearly a few trade-offs between ice-braking versus road noise etc. To me, the road noise is (lack of) is important. It seems that an ideal choice is Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 H (whatever does the H mean?). How do you all feel about that tire? Another choice is the Conti TS810SV which consumers rated less good for snow traction and ice-braking.

Larry

[tkeskic]

The H is speed rating; basically I dont think you have to worry about this too much in the winter time (so long as its good enough to cover the top speed you plan to drive)

The Load index for the M35 is important; so you have to watch that, there is tires that are the right size, but no enough load capacity to carry the weight of the car;

There is some good explanations on what the coding on tires is located here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_code

[antzrus]

...

But damn, if you really wanna' know my 1971 Saab 99E w/its regular tires was the best damn snow machine I've ever driven. I never got stuck in the damn thing and it handled like a dream. In fact the Vail, CO police Department for a number of years drove the damn things thru all kinds of snow; no problem!!

Oh, by the way. My Saab described above was one of the first front wheel drive machines in this country-not (4x4) FWD. I think it had around 90 hp, w/a really hot heated seat!

[lreinstein]

i was at my tire dealer today to ask about a set of Blizzak LM-25's. They wasnt $350 (US) each for them installed, and balanced. seems pretty high.

[scjconsulting]

i was at my tire dealer today to ask about a set of Blizzak LM-25's. They wasnt $350 (US) each for them installed, and balanced. seems pretty high.

How do you say TIRERACK?

[szh]

How do you say TIRERACK?

Yes, indeed! Highly endorsed for their prices and their support.

Z

[maxnix]

1.) problem with winter tires is not the expense....it is that we have no place at all to store them.

2.) i prefer a good all season that has reasonable traction in snow.

3.) as i said, i never had problems with my subaru outback with goodyear tires

1.) Most Tire Rack installers will store your summer tires for you. Ask. Most owners get a really good set of wheels for larger summer tires and mount snows on their stock wheels, or cheapie steel wheels for their winter tires so the mount dismount expenses are minimized.

2.) You're still drinking the Kool-Aid. "All season" is a marketing euphemism, not reality. Over .5" of snow and you need snow tires.

3.) But which ones? Not even all RSA are made to the same specifications.