M35 Timing Chain Job - have to remove engine? [SOLVED - don't have to]

[JamesVaughn3rd]

Hello,

I don't actually have a timing chain problem (at least I don't think), but my question most directly relates to it.

About two months ago, my car began overheating. I replaced the radiator, water pump and burped the living hell out of it and generally the overheating problem was solved.

However just after that was fixed, in what I think was just a coincidence, I starting throwing a P0011 and a P0300 code. As a result the car has a wonky idle, generally a little bit higher than normal (sometimes 900 or 1,000 rpm idle), that when warmed up usually drops down to the normal 650rpm range and smooths out with only a very slight roughness to it. I did a service (spark plugs, oil change, filters, etc.) and tested my VVT solenoids which seem to be operating perfectly when charged at 12v and has no sludge.

I am still trying to figure out how to test my oil pressure (the location of the oil pressure sensor is very hard to unscrew) to confirm that my oil galley gaskets are toast; but I've come to believe that the oil galley gaskets are driving the issue, thanks to significant research on this great resource of a site.

The questions that I am having trouble finding answers to, however, are as follows;

1) Can you remove the front timing chain cover and service that area with the engine in the car? It feels like there is plenty of room to do so, but I wanted to see if anyone had done it before I start dismantling and waste my time.

2) The FSM says to remove the intake manifolds. is that really necessary? They don't look in the way....

3) While I'm in there I intend to replace not just the oil galley gaskets, but also the primary tensioners, chain and guides. I will inspect the secondary chains/guides/tensioners but I don't intend to replace unless obvious wear. I'm not having any noises coming from the chain, but if I'm in there the parts are only a couple hundred dollars so at nearly 200k miles might as well take care of those things.

4) More just a note, but when I replaced the water pump, the primary tensioner gave me all kinds of problems, including the piston popping out of the tensioner. It went back in and seemed to operate just fine so I re-used the same tensioner. I am not getting any noise, so I figured the tensioner is not causing the codes. Also, after some research I don't think I skipped a chain or anything during the water pump replacement,as the car idles pretty well when warmed up.

Thanks for any feedback you can provide. Car is a 2008 Infiniti M35x with 171,000 miles.

[cruzad3r]

sounds complicated. i just had my engine replaced at an indy shop so i do have a spare engine that i can potentially take picture for you if you want to see whether you have to take the intake manifold out to do any work.

good luck doing this yourself. you might want to take a lot of pictures for reference in case you can't finish it within a day/week.

[Ilya]

Buy an ODB-II Bluetooth reader and connect it to your phone via something like the "Torque" app...that should be able to read your oil pressure sensor information and give you the value. $25 or so.

[EdBwoy]

... but I've come to believe that the oil galley gaskets are driving the issue, thanks to significant research on this great resource of a site.

The questions that I am having trouble finding answers to, however, are as follows;

1) Can you remove the front timing chain cover and service that area with the engine in the car? It feels like there is plenty of room to do so, but I wanted to see if anyone had done it before I start dismantling and waste my time.

2) The FSM says to remove the intake manifolds. is that really necessary? They don't look in the way....
...

Going off memory here as its been over 2 years since I dismantled a VQ35DE.

Isn't bank 1 on the V6 the passenger side - and the water pump on the driver side? The only way I see your water pump job being an issue is if the bottom of the chain sagged and when you put it back together you jumped a tooth off the crankshaft.
Otherwise, the stroke of the oil tensioner plungers should be enough to compensate for about 2 jumped teeth worth of degrees on the head side, but the little sprocket driving the block side might not allow much variability.

To answer your questions,
1. Yes, you should be able to remove it and get clearance for more work with the radiator and fan shroud out of the way. I know some guys with the FWD VQ35DE could do timing chain tensioner replacements with the engine still in the car, so the RWD layout should give you lots of room.
All the bolts to be removed are on the front of the engine except 2 long ones that come up from the oil pan.

2. From what I've seen of the M35 engine, I don't think they're in the way either, but pics from you or cruzad3r will help.

Do you mind throwing some links here to dicussion on the oil galley gaskets? I'm curious about this.

[JamesVaughn3rd]

Buy an ODB-II Bluetooth reader and connect it to your phone via something like the "Torque" app...that should be able to read your oil pressure sensor information and give you the value. $25 or so.

Thanks Ilya, did both of those. The oil pressure is not a sensor that reads as part of your OBDII reader. I think I did sufficient research to figure this out (and also playing around with the app for along time. Link below is one of many who seem to find the same issue. From what I understand the sensor in the car only tells you Low or Not Low. Nothing in between....

Going off memory here as its been over 2 years since I dismantled a VQ35DE.

Isn't bank 1 on the V6 the passenger side - and the water pump on the driver side? The only way I see your water pump job being an issue is if the bottom of the chain sagged and when you put it back together you jumped a tooth off the crankshaft.
Otherwise, the stroke of the oil tensioner plungers should be enough to compensate for about 2 jumped teeth worth of degrees on the head side, but the little sprocket driving the block side might not allow much variability.

To answer your questions,
1. Yes, you should be able to remove it and get clearance for more work with the radiator and fan shroud out of the way. I know some guys with the FWD VQ35DE could do timing chain tensioner replacements with the engine still in the car, so the RWD layout should give you lots of room.
All the bolts to be removed are on the front of the engine except 2 long ones that come up from the oil pan.

2. From what I've seen of the M35 engine, I don't think they're in the way either, but pics from you or cruzad3r will help.

Do you mind throwing some links here to discussion on the oil galley gaskets? I'm curious about this.

Yes, bank 1 is the passenger side. But you have to access both sides to do a water pump job (remove chain tensioner on driver side, to get enough slack to remove the water pump). I've thought a while about the timing chain skipping a tooth. But I just don't think my car would idle well AT ALL, and when warm it idles almost as smoothly as stock. Timing is known via the Torque app actually, at idle it's about 15 degrees advanced. Driving down the highway is about 35 I believe. However I've never been able to find the metrics as to what is normal. I actually am not positive you can skip a tooth on a water pump job. I've seen lots of threads on people suggesting they may have, but the actual issue was always something different.

I can do the timing chain tensioner while the engine is in the car. The timing chain tensioner is accessible through an access port, so I can see where that's not hard. Same as with the water pump.

As for the oil galley issues; a few links are below. Basically it sounds like the gasket will blow and oil will spray into your timing chain cover. So you won't have a leak, just an internal oil pressure loss. It won't be bad enough to kill the motor, but will be bad enough to screw with the VVT Solenoids and variable timing.

I brought my car into the dealer to take care of the airbag recall and asked them their thoughts. They told me "you definitely have an internal oil leak" and wanted $500 just to take the cover off and inspect it. But I'm not sure if they told me I have a leak because I told them I suspected there was; or because they actually diagnosed it that way. End of the day though, skipped a tooth or blew the gasket, the end result is me taking the front timing cover off. And like I said, before I rip into that job I want to know if anyone has done it with the engine in the car (and any advice there) and if they absolutely had to take off the intake manifold to do so or not.

As I try to post, I find I'm not allowed to link URLs.

Search on my350z site "timing-chain-cover-galley-gasket-change-what-to-look-for"
G35driver site "cause-dreaded-p0011-p0021-codes-everyone-curious-about"
and 350z UK side "zed-owners-must-read-p0011-p0021-caused-by-oil-gallery-gaskets"

[EdBwoy]

Yes, bank 1 is the passenger side. But you have to access both sides to do a water pump job (remove chain tensioner on driver side, to get enough slack to remove the water pump). I've thought a while about the timing chain skipping a tooth. But I just don't think my car would idle well AT ALL, and when warm it idles almost as smoothly as stock. Timing is known via the Torque app actually, at idle it's about 15 degrees advanced. Driving down the highway is about 35 I believe. However I've never been able to find the metrics as to what is normal. I actually am not positive you can skip a tooth on a water pump job. I've seen lots of threads on people suggesting they may have, but the actual issue was always something different.

I can do the timing chain tensioner while the engine is in the car. The timing chain tensioner is accessible through an access port, so I can see where that's not hard. Same as with the water pump.
...

Exactly what I thought. I'm assuming if you fumbled with the tensioner then also with the water pump, you might be able to leave create enough slack at the bottom that you could swing a tooth off.
There should be some controls in place, like if the chain hasn't stretched, then it would be difficult to insert either water pump or tensioner if you skipped a tooth.
But if the camshafts rotated at all, then again it's possible to inadvertently skip one. IIRC, the instructions usually call for cylinder 1 to be put at TDC, something that could be difficult to confirm with the timing cover still on. And if you stopped the engine at some mid-compression stroke, then the pressure could move the rotating bits to a desired neutral point.

I'll get into the links you posted a little later in the day.

The timing specs are listed towards the end of the owner's manual, and quite possibly in the FSM as well.

[EdBwoy]

James, how did you decide to proceed on this?

In looking through the links, the oil galley issue seems to be a problem with the VQ35HR engines, and since you have an 08 M35 that should have a VQ35DE, it is not necessarily the same symptom & remedy.
But hey, since you're going in there anyway, you'll figure it out.

[JamesVaughn3rd]

Hi,

Just wanted to provide an update on this in case anyone is googling the same stuff I did. I am now up to 700 miles and the car is running great.

I drove around w/ the check engine light on for maybe 1,000 miles, where the idle was poor, power was poor, MPG was about the same and I was overheating to about 235 degrees (wasn't in the red, just higher than normal). I was getting the P0011 and a P0300 codes as described in the first post.

- There is plenty of room in the 2008 Infiniti M35x engine bay once you remove the fan. Just lay a moving blanked or something of the sorts over the front bumper and radiator.
- When you do a water pump job, it is absolutely critical to prime the engine oil pressure. I did this by cranking the engine w/ the fuel fuse unhooked three or four times (times = starter button pushes). If you do not do this, there is a high likely hood that your timing chain will skip a tooth because the tensioner isn’t taut, trust me I know….
- The back power steering pump bracket bolts are awful. They put them up against the shock tower blocked by the alternator shield and exhaust manifold shield. Took forever to remove, at all kinds of difficult angles. I did this without removing the alternator. I’m actually not sure how to get in the right position to replace the alternator with such a lack of space to remove the bolts/nuts.
- It took me a long time to remove the crank pulley nut. I allegedly have a 1,000lb impact wrench. Nothing but a broken impact socket. Liquid wrench, WD40, oil creep. Soak for a day, respraying every few hours. Nothing. I ended up doing something I really didn’t want to….cranking the engine w/ the breaker bar clocked to the floor. I wasn’t necessarily afraid of doing it, but more afraid that the push button starters aren’t always easy to just do a little flip/blip for a single crank and I have no oil. I knew it wouldn’t start because I removed the fuel fuse. I hit the starter and it didn’t even crank over a full rotation, just a loud clunk, and boom the nut came off. Despite the service manual’s use of a pulley puller, my crank pulley came off by hand.
- As I mentioned earlier, I had heard about the oil galley seals breaking and losing oil pressure. I don’t think mine did, but I replaced them anyway. In fact, getting the old gasket material off was not fun at all. I got the upgraded seals from Concept Z performance. (CZP Rear Timing Internal Oil Gallery Cover Plate Gasket Set, VQ35DE). I upgraded to the allen bolt replacements, which was good as I almost stripped one of the screws as it was partially hidden by the cam gears. No engine should have phillips head screws in it….
- I replaced the timing chain and the guides. The upper guide (13091-AL502) and passenger side guide (13085-AL505) looked different than my original, and upon closer inspection of my receipt, it appears they were both replaced by 13091-JK20A and 13085-JK20A, respectively. I haven’t a clue why they would even SELL me an older version but they did and I was careless not to check. Due to time constraints I used them and the car still runs great. They looked different but functionally and in size they were identical. Be sure to check to see if any of the parts you need were updated.
- Timing chain replacement is a cakewalk. Just line up the notches w/ the colored links.
- As many have said, cleaning the old gasket off is a huge pain in the butt. You have to clear out the little channels with a screw driver. Takes forever. When I reinstalled I was afraid I didn’t use enough permatex, but so far so good.
- Watch out for the oil seal between the timing cover and oil pan when reinstalling the cover. It kept wanting to slide forward when I tightened down the front timing cover, had to redo it a couple times.
- I don’t care what autozone/advance/rockauto says, the Felpro oil pan gasket OS30688 does NOT fit a 2008 Infiniti M35x. Maybe a non AWD model, but the gasket is too wide. I ended up having to use permatex.
- I believe that my overheating issue was caused by a thermostat and water pump that was from autozone. I recommend that if your budget can afford it, use authentic Nissan parts. The thermostat from Nissan itself was actually the same price as autozone. My temps now are great, even with a little bit of air still in the system (I can hear it in the cabin).
- I can’t ultimately tell you what drove the CEL codes, but I can tell you that replacing the timing chain, guides, cleaning up the VVTC passages best I can, etc. fixed it.

[EdBwoy]

All is well that ends well, thanks for the update.

...
- When you do a water pump job, it is absolutely critical to prime the engine oil pressure... If you do not do this, there is a high likely hood that your timing chain will skip a tooth because the tensioner isn’t taut, trust me I know...

Spoken like a sage.

[ToTheMaxima]

Hi,

Just wanted to provide an update on this in case anyone is googling the same stuff I did. I am now up to 700 miles and the car is running great.
...

did you have to remove the compressor?