Lowering the boom on Hyundai/Kia

[txchamps]

This:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html

Do you suppose that Hyundai is STILL maintaining that they did everything within the EPA's "broad" guidelines?

I am of the opinion that the majority of the EPA numbers we see at any given time are pure, unadulterated pony loaf. The manufactures can play with the tires, wind direction, temperature, and the statistics themselves, among a number of other variables, and still be within guidelines. It just so happens that in this case, Hyundai got caught stretching the envelope.

Do your research, people, and seek out real-world numbers whenever possible. It is too much to ask the manufacturers to be straight with us. Never gonna happen.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Until EPA numbers represent something actually meaningful, I struggle with the idea of penalties.

Just yet another example of a Federal agency ostensibly existing to serve consumers but actually just complicating everything it touches with an endless stream of self-perpetuating meaningless bureaucracy.

[txchamps]

Until EPA numbers represent something actually meaningful, I struggle with the idea of penalties.

Just yet another example of a Federal agency ostensibly existing to serve consumers but actually just complicating everything it touches with an endless stream of self-perpetuating meaningless bureaucracy.

Hmmm... Don't quite know what you're driving at with the first part of your response. Are you saying what I was saying, that the whole lot of 'em are a steaming pile, or that the whole concept of EPA mileage figures is meaningless? Or that mileage doesn't matter? I don't think I want ot get into a flame war with you over that.

And as to your second statement -- c'mon, you have to admit that these Hyundai boys were caught with their willies hanging out. It is a blatant case of fraud. Penalties were due. Those emmissions credits -- that's our money. Yours and mine.

Now, I am willing to bet that there are more blatant violations out there that the Feds are simply too inept (or find it too politically expedient) to uncover -- I'll give you that. But this might cause a few auto execs to rethink their strategy. Suddenly we're talking real money.

[Bubba1]

This:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html

Do you suppose that Hyundai is STILL maintaining that they did everything within the EPA's "broad" guidelines?

.

OF course. Deny deny deny. they are guilty of manipulating complex test data to favor their highest readings (an incentive to increase federal emissions credits and save money) instead of using an average required by the EPA. I'm sure the other major manufacturers are cheating too, perhaps doing something a little different, like replacing low testing examples with better performing ones. It's akin to people going above the speed limit. We all know everyone speeds, but only a few get caught.

I am of the opinion that the majority of the EPA numbers we see at any given time are pure, unadulterated pony loaf. The manufactures can play with the tires, wind direction, temperature, and the statistics themselves, among a number of other variables, and still be within guidelines. It just so happens that in this case, Hyundai got caught stretching the envelope.

I agree, the numbers were designed to give a buyer a standardized comparison as to how well a car might fare with a gallon of gas. Problem is it has become advertising fodder, plus there's a big financial incentive for a carmaker to inflate those numbers. And Hyundai showed how easily it can be manipulated, making it essentially useless.

Personally I've never put any faith in EPA numbers, and instead look at owner surveys or speak with actual owners to get an idea of the mileage vehicles get.

[Kompresshun]

I don't put any faith in EPA numbers either. Hyundai/Kia definitely is not the only automaker fudging the numbers out there. They just have been one of the unfortunate ones to get caught with "their willies hanging out".

Yes, I am looking at you Ford. Your Ecoboost junk can suck a big fat one.

We bought a Kia Sorento right when all of the EPA mess came to light and it did not sway my decision in buying one at all. The window sticker was updated on ours to the new EPA numbers and honestly we've seen better MPG that what it claimed on the window sticker out of it. From research and reviews from other owners it seemed that driving habits and conditions(big surprise right?) can really effect the fuel economy a lot on them.

My wife works less than a mile from our house, so most days the Sorento only gets driven around a 5 mile radius max. It only shows 18-19mpg under those conditions, but if we drive it on a trip or more often we usually see around 23mpg city and 30mpg highway.

[txchamps]

Yes, I am looking at you Ford. Your Ecoboost junk can suck a big fat one.

Good old Ford. They have become the masters of taking a perfectly good and proven technology and executing it in the worst possible manner. I would also point to their disastrous version of the dual clutch transmission in the Focus and Fiesta. What a SNAFU.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Hmmm... Don't quite know what you're driving at with the first part of your response. Are you saying what I was saying, that the whole lot of 'em are a steaming pile, or that the whole concept of EPA mileage figures is meaningless?

I'm saying that EPA mileage figures and the method by which they are derived are a steaming crock of s***. They're removed so many variables from the equation that it no longer represents anything remotely analogous to actual driving conditions. The only value it manages to serve is as a comparison point, and even in that sense it fails because there's no consistency from one model to the next, DESPITE overscientific distillation. It lacks relevance AND it lacks enforcement, and neither does any good without the other so it's self-perpetuatingly purposeless.

Or that mileage doesn't matter? I don't think I want ot get into a flame war with you over that.

No, but I do think that the modern auto market (thanks, once again, to our meddling friends in California and Washington) is FAR too concerned with fuel economy. Fuel economy has become the end-all attribute in marketing, regulation, competition, and buyer opinion. In reality, a difference of a few EPA mpg or even real-world mpg means very little from an ownership and operation perspective. But you wouldn't think that by the way the market and your typical malinformed buyer acts. These are products that cost tens of thousands of dollars and yet we quibble over a dozen dollars a month in fuel cost difference.

As for flame wars, please note that any passion that comes across in my posts is not directed at you or any other participants in the discussion, but at the subject matter itself.

And as to your second statement -- c'mon, you have to admit that these Hyundai boys were caught with their willies hanging out. It is a blatant case of fraud. Penalties were due. Those emmissions credits -- that's our money. Yours and mine.

I see the same point from a different perspective.
Firstly: A faulty system does not warrant willing compliance. It's moronic. I'd game it, too.
Secondly: Those emissions credits are the problem. Not gaming the system. Not faking the numbers. The fact that there's any incentive to fake numbers in the first place is the problem. Federal emissions and fuel economy laws are a ridiculous waste when they're doing what they're supposed to. In this case they're failing and the misue of resources is repulsive. Kia and Hyundai don't owe me any reparations. The Federal government does, for saddling me with taxes to support laws I do not support or agree with, and saddling my car with cost and equipment that I don't support or agree with, without my say-so or agreement. The fact that it's a violation of federal law to remove emissions equipment is apalling. The manufacturer may be bent over a regulatory barrell, but I had no part in deciding that the product I want to buy has to meet arbitrary standards established by a group of people who understand nothing about engineering. NONE of that is Kia/Hyundai's fault. They're guilty only of being trapped in an asininely over-regulated industry and trying to compete. I don't blame them. Hell, I'd rather everyone did it so we can render the whole thing so useless it can't function anymore.
Thirdly: It's not faking the numbers if they never meant anything in the first place. They're all ethereal. EVERY SINGLE ONE. It's all unenforced with minimal oversight. No stock can be put in them. They are not a relevant purchase-making guidepost or comparator. None of that is Kia/Hyundai's fault. It's not the automaker people should be upset with. It's the EPA.

So, in summary:
I have a hard time getting upset over abuse of a system when that system itself was already a problem in the first place.

[Jesda]

Ecoboost = Ecosludge

When towing, Ecoboost F-150s have the worst fuel economy of all half-tons.

[Kompresshun]

When towing, Ecoboost F-150s have the worst fuel economy of all half-tons.

Which is why it frustrates me to no end that Ford is trying so hard to push their Ecoboost crap on everyone and claim it's the best thing since sliced bread. None of their Ecoboost engines have been able to live up to the numbers they claim they're capable of under more normal driving conditions. If people want to drive a car like a Prius in order to get better fuel economy, then they're likely just going to buy a Prius.

It's getting almost as bad as Nissan's obsession with the CVT.