Lost another bottom end!

[boost_boy]

After rebuilding the bottom end of our white 1990 sentra, I knew this thing would be together for a long time (Wrong answer). After completion of reassembling the car/engine, fired the thing up, let it idle for a while, took it for a drive and all seemed perfectly healthy. High oil pressure under heavy load, efficient boost from my drag 60-1 blower, vacuum loss because of big cams, serious performance from 4500rpm to 8000rpm. On the day of the event, the car/engine had something else up it's sleeve. Oil pressure was going down under load, but would stay normal off throttle or deceleration.

Got into a quick battle with a G35 and laid waste to that car with no respect, but I notice the oil pressure going down so I let off. Got 69 miles away from my home and the car just lost all power. I let it coast and it just cut off. I immediately went to crank it back up and it just popped and then nothing but rotation. It sounded ignition related, so I immediately targeted my coils, MSD DIS2, SDS hall sensor, and the ecu itself. ECU checked out okay, DIS2 checked out okay, fuse to coils were good, hall sensor appeared to be undamaged, all magnets were behind the pulley or at least that's the way it felt. One of the magnets had come out of the pulley, but how? I epoxy'd those things in with precision, so now I was stumped. I'm now praying the magnet hadn't fallen out on the highway because I would've had to wait for my fiance' to bring me the extra pulley with magnets installed already and that would've take about an hour or so. Luckily for me, those magnets are so powerful that it stuck itself to the lower timing cover and I ultimately decided to repair it if I can get a ride to an auto parts store.

So many racers and spectators sped past my car while I sat there with my son trying to figure should I tow the car or go get some epoxy and try and repair it. Luckily, one of my friends with a Lexus SC300 with a 1J swap recognized the sentra and stopped to help us. We went and bought some epoxy, I removed the pulley, did the repair and was back on the road in no time. Keep in mind that the oil pressure issue was there and I am now under the heavy assumption that the magnet was knocked-out because the crank is probably moving around. Listening for rod bearing knock at 3000ish rpm, all was quiet, so I kept the car at 85mph.

Seeing that its a road that all the racers travel (Florida turnpike), I encountered a green civic with gauges and intercooler, but did not engauge him because of traffic and the fact that my 7 y/o was sleeping. Open road appeared, he rapidly opened and closed his throttle to signal to me that he has a turbocharged powerplant and that I should be intimidated. Well, I gave him a 25psi approach and then let go of the pedal and that was the end of the intimdation factor. Got to the track and the first thing I see is a portable dynomometer with stats of N/A 4 cyl, 4cyl w/1 power adder, etc, etc. A dodge neon SRT-4 was leading the 4 cyl group with 322whp. I decided that if I entered this I would definitely win, but will lose at the same time because my engine would let go because of it's oil pressure and bottom end dramas; and besides the fact that I'm over 90 miles from my home makes for an expensive tow. The neon won with its 322whp. I decided to leave and one of my friends with the 530+whp KA24 powered S13 was having issues with his engine and needed to borrow my tools. My son and I took off, encountered some racers leaving the park, they teased me and I said what the hell. I hit the pedal and boost sat at 20psi, accelerating past the WRX STi and boosted NX2000 and then I heard the 3000ish rattle. It got worst as I drove along and I eventually drove the thing about 32miles before I said enough was enough.

The engine was torn down the next day only to find the exact results from the last time. Crushed thrust bearing, destroyed #3 rod bearing with light scoring to the rod's bearing seat which also proved the fact that the crank was moving around. The only change I have made on this engine was the addition of the ceramic clutch. Maybe the engine was worn already and the clutch readily identified it. Maybe I rebuilt the engine with the clearances being out a 1000ths and caused a repeat performance. It sucks and it costs, so be prepared to pay if you wanna play because stuff do break and it's not cheap to fix; as well as consuming a lot of precious time.

Dee

[iliketocrash]

anyone have ideas what would cause this to happen? cause i've been hearing about this problem long before i even registered with the forums and i was still only a reader. it seems that you can't fix the problem.

[Turbogixxer]

Damn, Glad to hear you did not get stuck out in BTF. What crank pulley/damper you running?

The neon won with it 322whp

That is weak. What event was this?

[pulsar gtr]

Dee, sorry to hear about what happened to the new engine, thats was some good money spent there.

I am curious to what might have been causing your problem. Do you have a new oil pump in there? what about the crank pulley or the flywheels, any thing different on these that can cause some resonation on the crank and ultimitley blow the trust bearings or the rod bearings?Man that sucks, best luck dude, i feel for you and your pocket.

Good luck,PULSAR GTRRafi

[c-rad]

Is this the motor that you just put a brand new crank in????

[boost_boy]

anyone have ideas what would cause this to happen? cause i've been hearing about this problem long before i even registered with the forums and i was still only a reader. it seems that you can't fix the problem.

It's something about the RWD platforms or just my hard luck. I've always used the AWD/FWD variants which indeed have their differences, but not to the point whereas it causes these kind of problems. I too was going to send another member an engine set and needed to repair the oil pan and when I opened it up, it looked exactly like my motor only mine was a wee bit cleaner. I think it has something to do with clutch types or release bearings. Never had this problem until I switched disks. Possibly worn release bearing, but I doubt it because I rarely use this car.

Dee

[boost_boy]

Damn, Glad to hear you did not get stuck out in BTF. What crank pulley/damper you running? I'm running the stock dampener. I've been using the same dampener for the last 3 years.

That is weak. What event was this?

This was an NHRA event and it sucked that I didn't get to participate, let alone see the event from start to finish. I did get to see Stephen Papadakis nail a 6.67 @212mph run . But the neon winning was weak. I even put on the bigger turbo with the .63 back housing which would've netted me that hp if not more around 15psi of boost. Oh well, sh1t happens .

Dee

[boost_boy]

Dee, sorry to hear about what happened to the new engine, thats was some good money spent there.

I am curious to what might have been causing your problem. Do you have a new oil pump in there? what about the crank pulley or the flywheels, any thing different on these that can cause some resonation on the crank and ultimitley blow the trust bearings or the rod bearings?Man that sucks, best luck dude, i feel for you and your pocket.

Good luck,PULSAR GTRRafi

Hey rafi, thanks for the sympathy! My only suggestion is that my problem lurks around the area of the clutch system. I had installed a new crank, new mains and rod bearings, new oil pump, new seals, and re-installed the clutch that was giving the car problems before. I mean, it did the same exact thing as before, started losing oil pressure and ultimately trashing one of my turbos and causing me to rebuild. I blamed the oil pump, but I have not yet seen a CA18DET oil pump fail yet. Something is putting too much pressure up against the crank and causing the thrust bearing to prematurely fail which ultimately takes out anything else closest to it (ie (#3 rod, #2 rod and mains).

Dee

[boost_boy]

Is this the motor that you just put a brand new crank in????

Indeed it is. I have yet another new crank and oil pump, but i'm taking the entire assembly to my machinist for clarification and balancing. Luckily it didn't destroy my cams or the head.

Dee

[c-rad]

You guys are scaring me with all these motor failures. Then again, how many people come on here and post, "Hey, just wanted to let everyone know, the car's running good."

[boost_boy]

You guys are scaring me with all these motor failures. Then again, how many people come on here and post, "Hey, just wanted to let everyone know, the car's running good."

Don't be afraid of it failing, but be prepared to square it away if and when it does. Usually, if your motor is going to do this kind of failure, it does it quickly and not over a 2 or 3 year span.

Dee

[c-rad]

Don't be afraid of it failing, but be prepared to square it away if and when it does. Usually, if your motor is going to do this kind of failure, it does it quickly and not over a 2 or 3 year span.

Dee

LOL, if and when it does, I will just haul it down to Miami and let you figure it out

I'm always ready to tackle a motor. I used to own a DSM that broke every other week. If I pick up this motor this week, it is just going to sit on an engine stand for a while so I can replace just about EVERYTHING I can.

[f s t caz]

too much clamping force on the clutch? I remember being warned in school about putting a puck clutch on a regular motor for the reason that the force needed to disengage the clutch would actually do a little more than just disengaging the clutch and would actually also push the entire crankshaft forward.

I hope you get it figured out by the time the next motor gets installed and operational. good luck with it.

[pulsar gtr]

The clamping force on the clutch, will only cause the wear to happen over a longer period of time not instant.

People that have such clutchs or stop at a traffic light, stop signs...etc and keep their foot on the clutch pedal all the time will cause the crank to eventually push forward and damaged the trust bearings as well as the crank, seen it first hand on a ca18det that I got, it was FWD and you can literally kick the crank from one side to another about 1/4 of an inch.

The problem seems to be the crank is resonating causing the damage, now whats causing the resonation is to be find out.

Dee is it possible beside the clutch being a suspect, that you might have a slightly bent Rod which is causing resonation (but then again, if it is bent, it would have broken by now).

PULSAR GTRRafi

[nismoplsr]

did the crank move enough to cause hard dissengagements of the clutch? meaning that the crank and assembly moved to far away from the release bearing that it would dissengage or it would barely?

I am still investigating my problem of being unable to dissengage.

I ruled out the problem being the clutch disc or pressure plate. I installed a stock set and that wont dissengage either. I ruled out the throw out bearing by comparing it to a spare i have and also the release fork because i compared that to a spare also.

It is not in the hydraulics. The problem is not the fork not moving enough it is that when the fork is fully pushed the clutch does not dissengage. The fork doesnt seem to come in contact with the pressure plate diaphragm untill further than it is suppose to.

Basically this leave out 2 options, my whole flywheel and crank moving or the "bell housing" stretching.

this is quite the dissapointing and scary story. Dissapointing because of the fact that you could kick some more a** with our beloved CA, and scary because i believe i am running the same clutch setup. or will be running should i say.

[pulsar gtr]

Hi nismoplsr,

Try and pull and push forward or backwards on your crank pulley and see if it moves.Shave the bellhousing down lol, Joking lol. But that would be an experiement lol.

nismoplsr, did you try the KA release bearing of a 1992 Nissan stanza, it might be longer (wider) that would make a difference, thats what I am using.Which flywheel are you using?

PULSAR GTRRafi

[float_6969]

Dee, I personally think that this is a resonance problem. The first thing that I would do would be to take the ENTIRE reciprocating mass down to your machinist and have it all rebalanced. I have a feeling that your new clutch isn't balanced and is causing a vibrating, which is subsequently causing your problems. I would also consider a different clutch if that is at all possible with your horsepower levels.

[boost_boy]

did the crank move enough to cause hard dissengagements of the clutch? meaning that the crank and assembly moved to far away from the release bearing that it would dissengage or it would barely?

I am still investigating my problem of being unable to dissengage.

I ruled out the problem being the clutch disc or pressure plate. I installed a stock set and that wont dissengage either. I ruled out the throw out bearing by comparing it to a spare i have and also the release fork because i compared that to a spare also.

It is not in the hydraulics. The problem is not the fork not moving enough it is that when the fork is fully pushed the clutch does not dissengage. The fork doesnt seem to come in contact with the pressure plate diaphragm untill further than it is suppose to.

Basically this leave out 2 options, my whole flywheel and crank moving or the "bell housing" stretching.

this is quite the dissapointing and scary story. Dissapointing because of the fact that you could kick some more a** with our beloved CA, and scary because i believe i am running the same clutch setup. or will be running should i say.

Nismo, when I first put the clutch in, I wasn't having any problems. I went to a stronger clutch because the Kevlar was slipping under boost. As for your issues with disengagement, I wouldn't go for the stanza's release bearing as Rafi suggests only because it will probably make matters worst even though it might work. I suggest taking your flywheel in for inspection and some machining, check your crank for end play and don't be afraid to venture into the unknown.

I have read too many times whereas people's bottom ends have crapped-out and I believe this problem is something that not new, but can be tackled if we all shared information. While some of the newbies worry about getting their cars to just plain 'ol run right, we'll tackle the more serious issues. With your clutch fully assembled and transmission on (if applicable), have someone fully engage the clutch while you check your vibration dampener or crankshaft pulley for movement. If your crank moved while the car was running, you've already started the damage process. If your crank doesn't move, then you don't have this particular crank walk movement to worry about and can focus on something else.

The answer to your 1st question is "yes". It was kinda tough to disengage and felt funny when I fully pushed the clutch in as well. One more thing I wanted to warn you about is the mounts. Make sure your mounts arer in good shape and not adding extra stress on the transmission. Any uneven activity from the engine and transmission positioning is a no-no and it too will cause problems.

Dee

[boost_boy]

Dee, I personally think that this is a resonance problem. The first thing that I would do would be to take the ENTIRE reciprocating mass down to your machinist and have it all rebalanced. I have a feeling that your new clutch isn't balanced and is causing a vibrating, which is subsequently causing your problems. I would also consider a different clutch if that is at all possible with your horsepower levels.

This is the one problem I feared happening to me or anyone of us. I had hoped that if it was going to happen, it be to me and not any of you, so that you guys don't get discouraged about the CA. Like I was told, it usually happens to engines that are freshly assembled or have added on an extreme clutch components and is not limited to just the CA18s, but to any engine. So this our test and we're going to have to work together on this one and quickly. My assembly is going to the machine shop today as soon as I get my hands on the new crank. We'll stay in touch on this one.

Dee

[pulsar gtr]

Hum, I have been using the KA STanza release bearings for over 5 years, but on the other hand I am also using the stanza stageII full feramic clutch and pressure plate, but I know the stanza release bearing will work wiht stock ca18det clutch and pressure plate but not sure if it will work with the CA18DE clutch though.

PULSAR GTRRafi

[boost_boy]

Hum, I have been using the KA STanza release bearings for over 5 years, but on the other hand I am also using the stanza stageII full feramic clutch and pressure plate, but I know the stanza release bearing will work wiht stock ca18det clutch and pressure plate but not sure if it will work with the CA18DE clutch though.

PULSAR GTRRafi

They all will work, but the pulsar one has a longer lip whereas the stanza's unit is a tad bit shorter, but wider in diameter. Like I said, in over 8 years of toying with the CA series, I've never had this happen to me. This was the least of my worries, but this RWD motor worries me. I've always used the AWD variants and have abused them both with ceramic clutches and kevlar clutches and have not been so puzzled like this one. I'm going to order 2 more FWD/AWD units for safe keeping because I can't afford to experiment like this any more; just too time consuming.

Dee

[originalsin]

I too was going to send another member an engine set and needed to repair the oil pan and when I opened it up, it looked exactly like my motor only mine was a wee bit cleaner. I think it has something to do with clutch types or release bearings. Never had this problem until I switched disks. Possibly worn release bearing, but I doubt it because I rarely use this car.

Dee

that member was me, and HUGE props to dee on that, even tho im still waiting 4 him to get his new set of engines in i def choose the right guy, its awesome that he was honest and how he handled it.

and dee like i told ya in the email, its a shame that all that hard work ended with this, but like said, you gotta pay to play

[boost_boy]

that member was me, and HUGE props to dee on that, even tho im still waiting 4 him to get his new set of engines in i def choose the right guy, its awesome that he was honest and how he handled it.

and dee like i told ya in the email, its a shame that all that hard work ended with this, but like said, you gotta pay to play

Oh it hurts! it makes me feel like I just started in this business because no one has a definite answer. I compared my kevlar hub to my ceramic hub and "Houston, we have a problem". The snout is a lot longer than the kevlar one which appears to have the ability to cause extra problem. Oh well, the crank wasn't ready today, so it made no sense at taking the block and stuff to the machinist.

Off topic, I think I got an engine set for you Andy. I'll peep it out sometime this week and if it looks good, I'll get it out to you as well. We'll rap more via email or a phone call.

Dee

[iliketocrash]

out of curiousity what was this new clutch that you switched to? brand and specs if you can =)

[nismoplsr]

With your clutch fully assembled and transmission on (if applicable), have someone fully engage the clutch while you check your vibration dampener or crankshaft pulley for movement. If your crank moved while the car was running, you've already started the damage process. If your crank doesn't move, then you don't have this particular crank walk movement to worry about and can focus on something else.

I will re-assemble everything this weekend and check for any kind of movement of the crank.I did try prying on the flywheel to see if i had any extra play and it didnt seem to move for me. But with the transmission in and someone pushing the clutch while i watch the crank pulley will be easier and more noticable.

The answer to your 1st question is "yes". It was kinda tough to disengage and felt funny when I fully pushed the clutch in as well. One more thing I wanted to warn you about is the mounts. Make sure your mounts arer in good shape and not adding extra stress on the transmission. Any uneven activity from the engine and transmission positioning is a no-no and it too will cause problems.

The transmission mount and rear engine mount are brand new and all my mounts are window-welded.

[nismoplsr]

Oh it hurts! it makes me feel like I just started in this business because no one has a definite answer. I compared my kevlar hub to my ceramic hub and "Houston, we have a problem". The snout is a lot longer than the kevlar one which appears to have the ability to cause extra problem.

Dee

More information on this Dee?

[boost_boy]

More information on this Dee?

Update: After pow-wowing for over an hour with Dave at clutch house in Ft. Lauderdale, playing with measurements from my old kevlar clutch, and watching him manually stress-test my clutches against my flywheel, we can safely conclude that it is indeed the clutch disk's spline and hub that is too high causing the tip of disk's spline race to be too close to the transmission's spline shaft sleeve. I noticed I had to drive in the bolts to close the transmission and when you force or semi-force anything together, it usually ends with disaster. I'll try and clarify more to those who don't understand.

Stevie, send me your clutch disk back ASAP! Do not attempt to put that thing back in your car or you too may end up with issues beyond your repairing abilities. Any questions, hit me up via email. And BTW, these clutches are custom made for the FWD guys by clutch house in Ft. Lauderdale.

Dee

[float_6969]

THAT is a Jimmy Kicker. Did they say that they thought they could make one that was the correct dimentions? Any sort of recompensation for build it out of specs? What did they have to base it off of? This is quite intresting.

Off topic, Dee, did you get my reply email? I'm really wanting to get something rolling with that SDS ASAP. I'm going to pull all the unnessicary electronics tonight and put it all up on eBay.

[boost_boy]

THAT is a Jimmy Kicker. Did they say that they thought they could make one that was the correct dimentions? Any sort of recompensation for build it out of specs? What did they have to base it off of? This is quite intresting.

Off topic, Dee, did you get my reply email? I'm really wanting to get something rolling with that SDS ASAP. I'm going to pull all the unnessicary electronics tonight and put it all up on eBay.

They based this off calculating lengths of the transmission's spline shaft sleeve, height of the release bearing's lip, height of the hub assembly and it's spline shaft guide/housing. My machinist hit it right on the head without asking me a gang of questions. The 1st question he asked was "what did you change or add in your gearbox that could've caused this problem. He then went on to try and answer his own question by calling out the clutch disk, release bearing or a loose flywheel.

On the SDS note, since the Canadians are on EST, I'll have to consult with them tomorrow when I get off work. One way or another, i'll be able to get you squared away.

Dee

[float_6969]

Awesome, thanks Dee!