Losing 4+ Quarts of Oil in 3,000 Miles!

[nickelghandi]

So I change my oil yesterday, and discovered that I was about 4 quarts low on oil. As in, less than 1 quart came out when I drained it. I have no indication of leakage anywhere, and the coolant is as green as ever, so no head gasket leak is expected. The tailpipe doesn't smoke and the gas mileage is what I would call normal (16-18 mixed driving). I have read some threads about the PCV valve and other issues causing oil loss, but not to this degree in 3,000 miles. I put full synthetic in it this time so I am expecting any potential leakage to worsen, and if it does not, then I will at least know that it is going out the tailpipe. I know you must be thinking, "How in the heck did he let it get that low? Doesn't he ever check his oil?!" Well, yes, I do. Once every couple weeks actually. Once when the car is cold and once when it is warmed up after driving. I have discovered that my dipstick is stained somehow and doesn't give a good reading. It always shows that I am between perfect and full. I know it is normal to use up some oil between changes, especially with 120k+ miles, but this seems ridiculous. Where is it going? The tailpipe is clean and it doesn't smell or smoke anywhere (it actually smells a little in the air intake system of oil, but I thought that was normal from the EGR). I haven't yet checked the plugs to see if they have oil on them, but I will do that today if I can get to it.

I do not think it is the PCV Valve or any of the other common issues, but I will mention that it seems as though the hose for my EGR is very rotted out. In the past, I have even seen it off its connection to the engine. This makes me think that the oil is getting burned and then recirculated back through the EGR and then logically into the manifold. Well the manifold is as clean as a whistle but I can usually smell oil when I pull parts of the intake apart or when I remove my air filter.

For now I am just going to be topping off my oil every couple of fill-ups, and I will be investing in a new dipstick to prevent the oil from ever getting so low again. My car still tends to run what I would call too warm, but not quite too hot. Its baseline temperature is about 213 degrees Fahrenheit, and it climbs to 223 if I have passengers or if I am going uphill. The highest I have seen it is 230 and that is when the needle starts to climb up on the gauge, but it dropped immediately as I crested the hill. That was on a day this past winter when the ambient temperature was 6 degrees Fahrenheit. That is another issue, but I fear they may be related somehow. The running too warm issue seems to actually get worse in the winter time as the ambient temperature drops, and it does not respond to me cranking the heat. I have had my radiator replaced as well as my thermostat, but both did nothing. I am leaning towards an issue either with the EGR, the oil cooler, or something in the cooling system that would cause oil loss and high temps.

I don't really know what to do about this as a whole, but I am going to try to take it step-by-step to hopefully fix the issue and not be bothered again, by the mysterious vanishing oil or the near-overheating. Any suggestions or help is always appreciated.

[spike753]

That is a lot of oil for 3000 miles. I think if there was a major problem you would know... For it use that much oil and have no leaks there mostly likely would be blue-ish smoke coming out your tail pipe. Pull a couple spark plugs and look at them ...that will tell you for sure if that much oil is being brunt through your tail pipe. I wounder if the dipstick might of been the problem in the first place. I am not sure if you changed your oil last or if someone else did but perhaps the dipstick being stained "tricked them" into thinking it was full when it was not....

But even then with that much oil missing you would think it would be getting very very hot...

You may also want to drop the oil pan just to make sure there in nothing funny happening there.

[Caldersley]

I have an 03 pathfinder with 105000 miles on it with the same problem.

I use valvoline 5W-30 synthetic oil and I ran it down pretty low once and it started acting funny and checked the oil and there was almost none left so she took a lot of oil. since then I've started logging fill ups and oil changes and mileage for about a month now. My average quart of oil gets burned in about 300 miles which from what I hear is horrible. I Consulted the mechanic at my local Nissan dealership and he wants me to keep logging and in the summer try a thicker oil like 10w-30. My dads thinking we need to get rid of the car soon before something bad happens. I'd really appreciate some advice if anybody else is having the same problem.

[saskapath]

I have a 2002 which uses oil at about the same rate. I do have a bit of leakage around my valve cover gaskets but not to the point where it would explain a quart in 500 miles or less. Given that I'm getting fault codes for both cats and see evidence of oil in the throttle body I think my next step is to put an oil trap in the PVC hose and see how much is going in that direction. It's too cold here to be doing much under the hood so that project will have to wait till spring.

It's too early to tell for sure but I switched to a high mileage oil on the last change and I think the consumption rate has slowed a bit.

Keep us posted on what you find, there are certainly a few of us with similar problems

Thanks

[Kompresshun]

Sorry for being late to the game here, but I have your answer and this completely fixed the problem with our QX4. Run conventional oil only - no synthetic or synthetic blend AT ALL. It sounds absolutely crazy and stupid I know - I thought the exact same thing.

The Infiniti Service Department told us to do that and I thought they were completely full of crap. I switched to regular Valvoline 5w30 and it never used another drop of oil between oil changes.

After doing further research, these engines were only designed to run on conventional oil and for some reason the synthetic burns in it. The reason you're not seeing it out of the tailpipe is because synthetic oil doesn't burn like conventional oil does, therefore you're not likely to see any smoke. No, there is no logical explanation for it, but I have seen this issue quite a few times and this is what solved it.

[atraudes]

That doesn't seem right. I have just over 3k miles since my last oil change, and the level hasn't dropped whatsoever, nor have I noticed a drop in the 2 years that I've had it. There has to be something else that's causing the engine to burn oil like that; these engines don't just burn synthetic across the board. For reference, I have 162k miles and use Mobil 1 45000 5W-30 High Mileage (full synthetic).

That being said, if it's stupid and it works, it ain't stupid. Having a fix is a relief regardless.

[Kompresshun]

Agreed - It's completely dumb and makes no sense, but I have seen it in other Pathfinders and QX4's from that generation. Apparently these particular engines weren't really designed to take advantage of synthetic oil, for whatever reason.

Another possibility is that there was an issue with the baffles in the valve covers getting clogged. Some have mentioned you can change the PCV valve and it will reduce the consumption, but the valve cover where the PCV valve is located may have to be replaced to make a difference.

Keep in mind that if it's burning oil, then eventually it could ruin your catalytic converters and cause bigger problems down the road. Not trying to be negative here, but it's just one of those things that probably should be dealt with if you want it to last for the long haul.

[Buzzman]

If I recall correctly from an earlier thread on discussions around synthetic oil, the 2003's and beyond have a blurb in the user manual that says not to use synthetic oil.
Not sure why they would say that, but...
I looked through my 2002 Pathy manual, and there is no mention of it.
I switched to Mobil 1 after I bought my Pathfinder. It was only a year old and had about 35,000Kms. on it.
I have run Mobil 1 ever since, and have no issues with oil leaks or burning.
At this point in time, 12 years later (and 295,000 KMS) I generally only lose one litre (quart) between changes.

A lot of this issue has to do with when you switch to synthetic, and whether you switch back and forth between synthetic and regular oil during the life of the vehicle.
Once you start on synthetic, you need to stay with it.
It is also a good idea to switch early in the life of the engine.
Going to synthetic late in life is not recommended.

[nickelghandi]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Sorry for being late to the game here, but I have your answer and this completely fixed the problem with our QX4. Run conventional oil only - no synthetic or synthetic blend AT ALL. It sounds absolutely crazy and stupid I know - I thought the exact same thing.

The Infiniti Service Department told us to do that and I thought they were completely full of crap. I switched to regular Valvoline 5w30 and it never used another drop of oil between oil changes.

After doing further research, these engines were only designed to run on conventional oil and for some reason the synthetic burns in it. The reason you're not seeing it out of the tailpipe is because synthetic oil doesn't burn like conventional oil does, therefore you're not likely to see any smoke. No, there is no logical explanation for it, but I have seen this issue quite a few times and this is what solved it.

Synthetic is thinner and can exacerbate leaking issues, but I have never heard of it causing burning. Maybe it slips past the rings or something? I ran conventional oil only before this most recent change so synthetic absolutely is not the issue, and I am not particularly interested in switching back. See below for the explanation of that.

Another possibility is that there was an issue with the baffles in the valve covers getting clogged. Some have mentioned you can change the PCV valve and it will reduce the consumption, but the valve cover where the PCV valve is located may have to be replaced to make a difference.

Keep in mind that if it's burning oil, then eventually it could ruin your catalytic converters and cause bigger problems down the road. Not trying to be negative here, but it's just one of those things that probably should be dealt with if you want it to last for the long haul.

Is there an easy way to get to those to check them? I plan to change the PCV when I do the spark plugs when it warms up outside. I know it isn't good for it to burn that much, but I am not sure that it is burning it. There is no evidence besides the loss. Although I can find no evidence of leakage either. As far as the cats go, I will be having a new exhaust put on very soon (resonator broke off for no apparent reason), and I will get them checked then if I can. There is literally nothing else wrong with the car.

What is extremely strange to me now is that after driving for a few weeks and checking the oil at every fill-up, there is no loss. None. NONE. Now the dipstick never showed oil loss before, but I cleaned it and examined the neck to make sure there was nothing causing a bad reading. The oil light never came on when it was that low. The only thing I know for sure, is that less than a quart came out when I changed the oil. I might change it again soon and measure how much comes out to see if it is still losing oil. With the synthetic I have in it, I have noticed a few more miles out of each tank (not more than 10 or 20 but still), and as I said, I have not had any leaks. I definitely would not advocate switching to synthetic to fix oil loss, but is this not strange?

[Kompresshun]

Unfortunately you would have to remove the valve covers to check the baffles. You could try changing the PCV valve but it's all really strange.

I would try changing the oil again and monitor it. All I know is we had a similar issue and the exact opposite - switching to conventional fixed it for some reason.

[nickelghandi]

Kompresshun, hat sounds like a lot, but I'll look into it if I get the time.

Quick update:
I have been checking the oil at every fill-up since I changed it and it hasn't looked low, but I checked it yesterday and it was about a quart low. I topped it off and am prepared to do that since I went through nearly 4 tanks of gas before I needed to add oil. To me that isn't bad for an old car. I checked a couple of the spark plugs (a chore without removing the upper intake manifold), and none of them are fouled up. It seems possible that there could be a leak somewhere that I have not been able to find. There are some spots that look like old leaks so maybe I'll have those seals inspected or something. I don't know. One quart per 1000 miles seems consistent with why it was so low when I changed it. I'll continue to monitor it and top it off until something presents itself.

I have pictures below of the dipstick and one of the plugs I pulled. I will be replacing the plugs soon and I'll do the PCV at that point as well for preventative maintenance.

[04pathse]

Kompresshun, hat sounds like a lot, but I'll look into it if I get the time.

Quick update:
I have been checking the oil at every fill-up since I changed it and it hasn't looked low, but I checked it yesterday and it was about a quart low. I topped it off and am prepared to do that since I went through nearly 4 tanks of gas before I needed to add oil. To me that isn't bad for an old car. I checked a couple of the spark plugs (a chore without removing the upper intake manifold), and none of them are fouled up. It seems possible that there could be a leak somewhere that I have not been able to find. There are some spots that look like old leaks so maybe I'll have those seals inspected or something. I don't know. One quart per 1000 miles seems consistent with why it was so low when I changed it. I'll continue to monitor it and top it off until something presents itself.

I have pictures below of the dipstick and one of the plugs I pulled. I will be replacing the plugs soon and I'll do the PCV at that point as well for preventative maintenance.

In this picture that you posted, it seems you are only about 1/4 of a quart low, not a full quart...

[nickelghandi]

In this picture that you posted, it seems you are only about 1/4 of a quart low, not a full quart...

Yes, you are correct. I should have corrected my post. I have discovered what the issue is. I figure my head gasket is blown. There is a small amount of coolant in the engine bay that keeps showing up after I wipe it away, and yesterday, after having checked the oil and adding when necessary several times over the last few weeks and not seeing anything, I removed the cap to add some oil, and I discovered the gruesome sight pictured below.


It would seem as though coolant is getting into my oil and creating that awful white foam you see above. This, I know is indicative of a leaking/blown head gasket and about $1000 of parts and labor. The only mystery now is why this didn't rear its ugly foamy head from the beginning. I figured a leaking or blown head gasket, but could never find any evidence to support that, and the Pathfinder runs just fine. Perhaps it wasn't a bad leak and somehow it got bad from me using synthetic oil? Whether or not that is the case, I will not be using synthetic again in this vehicle. There is no oil in the coolant, but I am sure that is not far off. This also explains why my engine was running "warm" but not overheating. There wasn't enough water moving because it was getting pushed into the oil. I considered using stopleak, but I have read that it can cause blockages of small passages where coolant needs to flow and clog up the radiator. I have a brand new radiator so I'd rather not ruin it just yet.

My last question for this thread... Aside from the obvious, what else should I have done while I have them working on this? Spark plugs? Water pump? PCV valve? Timing chain? Rods? Pistons?

[atraudes]

White foam/tapioca is a sign of moisture in the oil, which could be from a blown head gasket or simple condensation which can accumulate during the winter, especially after sitting for long periods or from short trips. If the oil on your dipstick has the same funky foam, then it's a blown head gasket. If not, then it's not nearly as big a problem.

[nickelghandi]

White foam/tapioca is a sign of moisture in the oil, which could be from a blown head gasket or simple condensation which can accumulate during the winter, especially after sitting for long periods or from short trips. If the oil on your dipstick has the same funky foam, then it's a blown head gasket. If not, then it's not nearly as big a problem.

Thanks for the suggestion! I would hate to take it to a shop and have them do all the labor getting to the head gasket only to find that it didn't need replacing after all.

It rarely sits more than 24 hours, and at most it will sit for 3 days. The trips are usually 5 miles or more in length (engine temp. up around 215 Fahrenheit) and about every two weeks I take a trip to my hometown to see my parents which is about 35 miles away. On those trips the engine climbs to around 223 at 62 MPH and then drops down to around 205 or less when I get on the interstate and am going 75 MPH.

There was a tiny amount of foam on the dipstick today (I should've snapped a pic before I cleaned it off), and the coolant level seems a little lower, but that is tough to tell just by looking at the reservoir. I cleaned out the cap and filler neck and cleaned off the dipstick. I'll drive it around a little and see if it comes back, but already, if I open the oil filler cap while the engine is warm, steam billows out from the filler neck. I know that can be nothing but blow-by gases, but there is a lot of it so I am still thinking head gasket. I am just gonna try and not drive it until I figure out what I am gonna do. I would hate to get rid of the thing, but I am looking at $3000+ in maintenance, and I could put that towards a newer car with many fewer miles and maybe even a warranty.

Only time will tell. Thanks again for the help.

[4xq]

There is another possibility here - your PCV valve may just be plugged / not working /stuck shut.

Normally, at low / medium throttle, the engine sucks air thru the PCV valve to clean out the crankcase gases. However, at full throttle, with the cylinders at max compression, the blowby is too much for the PCV valve, and the gases actually flow backwards thru the PCV air supply hoses that let air into the crankcase. So your blow-by gases go into the air intake at full throttle.

If the PCV valve is plugged, your blowby gases would be going back thru those hoses to the air intake all the time. I've never looked for thoses hoses, so I am not sure just where they are. Could be just one to the passenger side valve cover, or one to each valve cover.

If you pull the hose end off, you should get pretty good suction at say 1500 rpm - (not idle). No suction would indicate a problem. You may also find oil in the intake tube near the hose inlet.

If the PCV is plugged, the crankcase pressure can help push oil up past the rings, which might account for your oil consumption The poor crankcase ventilation in this situation would also account for your water condensation / foam.

At least worth a little diagnostic time, I think.


'

[nickelghandi]

That is a very good idea. I checked it out and I think you may be right. I cannot say for sure with my limited experience in these sorts of problems, but it is worth telling a mechanic before letting them rip apart my engine.

Here is what I found:

That shiny, exposed hole is where I pulled that hose from that connects to the intake. I imagine that is the PCV hose, because it is the only one going into the intake from the engine. The shininess of it does indicate some oil as shown on the paper towel below.

The small circles are from the connectors and the larger ones are from the hose itself. There is not very much oil, but there is some coming through.
I opened the filler cap again, and while there was not much tapioca type buildup, I did find lots of moisture, and what appears to be rust.

You can see the rust type buildup more clearly inside the cap. All the moisture on the paper towel is from the cap.
Why on earth would there be rust in there now and never before? I might even have some old engine oil lying around that I could take a picture of to prove that there isn't rust. I always examine the cap any time I take it off for sludge or rust or any indicators of bad things.

*Also, let me know if I need to compress these images. I am showing the full res to give detail, but I am happy to make them smaller to suit bandwidth/storage limitations.*

The engine ticks/knocks all the time as well. It is definitely on the driver's side, and I believe it is in one of the cylinders (duh). Here is a video showing this:
http://youtu.be/CuqIN-aOWF4 TURN YOUR VOLUME DOWN!

[4xq]

Well, thats the first time you mentioned engine noise. I really couldn't hear it on the video, but if it is a high pitched kind of tick, kind of like tapping the end of a ballpoint pen on the counter, its almost certainly a valve train tick. 95% of cars with that tick will not develop any problems from it.

If it is a lower pitched knock that follows engine rpms, and goes away at 1,000 or 1,500 rpm's, then that may be an issue. That would probably be a rod knock.

At this point, I think the best way to see if you have a problem is to pull the plugs one by one. Each one should look like the photo of the plug you posted up above. If you have a bad cylinder, given that you used 4 quarts of oil in 3k miles, the plug insulator will not be white, it will be black with carbon or oily black.

You don't seem to be using coolant, which makes me hopeful it is just a pcv valve. If you get six normal looking plugs, I would think PCV valve as long as you are not adding coolant.

If you get a bad cylinder, you can get a used engine off of car-part.com for as low as 350.00, meaning about 1,500.00 total for a straight remove and replace. That may end up being the best option.

Oh, the rusty stuff is what synthetic oils do when they get some water in them. Beemer owners ( all Beemers specify synthetic oil) get that. Conventional oils do the tapioca thing.

[nickelghandi]

The engine noise has been there since day one and it does go up with the RPMs but the engine seems fine.

I will pull the plugs today and check them out. I rarely add coolant, but my coolant level seems to fluctuate. As in, sometimes I will open the radiator (engine cold) and coolant will overflow and the reservoir will be nearly overflowing, while other times, still with the engine cold, I open the radiator, and it looks low and the reservoir will be nearly empty. It fluctuates whether I add coolant when it is low or not.

I have only synthetic oil in the car currently, and I had the tapioca looking buildup along with the rust. If you look at those photos, you will see what I mean. They were all taken within a few days of each other. Why would it be doing both?

I might just take it to the shop and have them replace the PCV valve and tell them to check everything else out while it is that far disassembled.

The car seems to run fine, aside from being a bit light on power at times, and its unwillingness to up-shift when I get up to my desired cruising speed. No rough idle or anything of that sort. The transmission fluid, brake fluid, and power steering fluid all look perfect.

I'll post back later today or early tomorrow with my findings on the spark plugs and anything else I can find. You guys are the best for taking the time to give some advice.

[Buzzman]

I might just take it to the shop and have them replace the PCV valve and tell them to check everything else out while it is that far disassembled.

That PCV valve is in a bad spot, and will require removing the intake manifold to replace.
Could be costly. Unless you're sure that it needs replacing, I'd let it go.

[nickelghandi]

Yes, it is. lol.

I don't know what needs replacing, but I am low on oil again, by about another half-quart, and I have been driving it even less than before. The white froth is back, and I have purposely increased the lengths of my trip so that the engine gets plenty hot and has a chance to run for a while at full temperature. I haven't babied the gas pedal, but I haven't been slamming it down either. I pulled a friend out of their driveway in 4-low and didn't even touch the gas.

I have been using 4WD a lot lately with all the snow we've had this past week, but everything seems fine with that. It has been doing a little idling since it has been so cold, but I do not see how that would have much impact. I still cannot see any evidence of leaks.

It has been too cold for me to go out and pull the plugs, but honestly, I doubt they will be fouled up. The ones I could get to before were completely fine. I would be fine with adding oil at 125k miles, but half a quart gone in 200 miles is ridiculous.

There seems to be more coolant in the engine bay, but the coolant level looks higher than usual right now (I explained how it fluctuates strangely in a previous post), so I don't even know what I would tell a shop if I took it to them. I know most would be happy to replace my head gasket or PCV valve, but if that isn't what is needed, then I don't wanna shell out the money.

[Kompresshun]

I'd drop it by Abe's Foreign Auto on Versailles Rd that I recommended to you before if you're still having issues. Explain the issue you've been having to him and he will call you when he figures out what might be wrong to let you know what it is before proceeding.

I'm fairly mechanically inclined too, but even I have to get a second opinion at times. Especially when i've been chasing something for weeks and am getting frustrated with it. Abe is probably the only person I trust around Lexington to work on my vehicles.

[nickelghandi]

I'll give them a try. I'll try and get it in there early on Wednesday morning. Thanks, Kompresshun, and everyone else who has helped thus far.

[attofarad]

nickelghandi -- did you ever resolve your oil problem?

[nickelghandi]

nickelghandi -- did you ever resolve your oil problem?

I did not. The mechanic said I was most likely burning it due to some internal leak as my exhaust is now blackened at the tip. He said it could go another 100k miles or another 5k miles. This was after PCV and EGR were replaced and all checks for leaks that could be done were done. My solution has been to buy another car for driving around town and keep my Pathfinder for the winter when I need the 4X4.