Looking for specific info on canbus

[TDot]

Im trying to read info from the car for my next project. And need some help. Hopefully the Infiniti techs around will have more precise info for me.

1/ I know that the DDL1 or DDL2 are older protocols, however from what I understand from the LAN FSM, they are still being used. So do the DDL1 and DDL2 provide any info that the CAN does not?

2/ Can I get OBDII info out of the KLine protocol or CANBUS protocol? I ask because from what I understand the OBDII protocol is slower than the others....and I see the speed issues in my software development.

3/ Which one of these versions of the CAN protocols are used:
ISO 15765-4 CAN (11 bit ID, 500 kbaud)
ISO 15765-4 CAN (29 bit ID, 500 kbaud)
ISO 15765-4 CAN (11 bit ID, 250 kbaud)
ISO 15765-4 CAN (29 bit ID, 250 kbaud)
User1 CAN (11* bit ID, 125* kbaud)
User2 CAN (11* bit ID, 50* kbaud)

4/ Any info on the PID location of the gear position?

5/ Can any of the Infiniti techs provide the actual PIDs in the CAN instead of me monitoring the CAN for the next few weeks?

[Ilya]

You might need to get this info from someone like BlackCat who might have more access to info like that...tough questions lol.

[szh]

1/ I know that the DDL1 or DDL2 are older protocols, however from what I understand from the LAN FSM, they are still being used. So do the DDL1 and DDL2 provide any info that the CAN does not?

Hmmm. I don't know the answer to this question ... I will ask our automotive engineers but I doubt if they know the older Nissan Consult interface protocols at all.

2/ Can I get OBDII info out of the KLine protocol or CANBUS protocol? I ask because from what I understand the OBDII protocol is slower than the others....and I see the speed issues in my software development.

Only some of the CANBUS data/info is available at the OBD-II port and this varies quite a bit from car implementation to car implementation.

As you probably know, there are three overall sets of OBD-II protocols: the ANSI set (which most Japanese, German and a few American mftrs use); and the other two extensions. But there are many proprietary extensions too. Generally, the basic NHTSA set - required for smog and other purposes - is common to all since smog test systems must use them.

Unfortunately, the core set of OBD-II messages as defined from NHTSA is fairly basic - so, every mftr has their proprietary (and private) extensions. And, they do not make these extensions public, in general.

So, a lot of trial and error and experimentation is needed (if you want to support a lot of car mftrs/models), unless you get an OBD protocol stack from a source who has already spent a long of time and done the work.

And this ain't inexpensive for a good set of information! I can get you a list of suppliers who provide OBD-II stacks if you are interested ...

BTW, be careful of messages where the OBD-II port is used to "talk" via the CANBUS to other car processing elements. You could take control of things that the mftr would prefer - strongly - that you didn't! This can be a major security issue and a legal liability concern for them.

3/ Which one of these versions of the CAN protocols are used:
ISO 15765-4 CAN (11 bit ID, 500 kbaud)
ISO 15765-4 CAN (29 bit ID, 500 kbaud)
ISO 15765-4 CAN (11 bit ID, 250 kbaud)
ISO 15765-4 CAN (29 bit ID, 250 kbaud)
User1 CAN (11* bit ID, 125* kbaud)
User2 CAN (11* bit ID, 50* kbaud)

I have no idea what Infiniti and Nissan use ... (assuming you are limiting yourself to that mftr). And, there are new transport methods in the works ... Ethernet in the cars is going to be a next-gen protocol that replaces the current serial CAN transports in many cars.

4/ Any info on the PID location of the gear position?

No idea!

5/ Can any of the Infiniti techs provide the actual PIDs in the CAN instead of me monitoring the CAN for the next few weeks?

I would be surprised if they can do so - the CANBUS and OBD-II extensions are proprietary to each manufacturer and not made public, AFAIK.

Z

[szh]

tough questions lol.

Yes, indeed!

Z

[BlackCat81]

Ya that's even above me, lol.

[EniGmA1987]

3/ Which one of these versions of the CAN protocols are used:
ISO 15765-4 CAN (11 bit ID, 500 kbaud)
ISO 15765-4 CAN (29 bit ID, 500 kbaud)
ISO 15765-4 CAN (11 bit ID, 250 kbaud)
ISO 15765-4 CAN (29 bit ID, 250 kbaud)
User1 CAN (11* bit ID, 125* kbaud)
User2 CAN (11* bit ID, 50* kbaud)

I have no idea what Infiniti and Nissan use ... (assuming you are limiting yourself to that mftr). And, there are new transport methods in the works ... Ethernet in the cars is going to be a next-gen protocol that replaces the current serial CAN transports in many cars.

Oh thank god. CAN is so ridiculously slow and old. And auto version of the EtherNet/IP would be awesome. It has been around for a long time now and is plenty stable and reliable, even for use in industrial machinery systems where peoples lives would be in danger or it could cause environmental disasters if it weren't reliable. It should have been brought over to the auto world a long time ago.

[TDot]

I figured out that the can protocol is ISO 15765-4 CAN (11 bit ID, 250 kbaud) in case anyone else has the need for that info.

Last question...I think...how many ECUs does this car have?

[Ilya]

I believe it's only one ECU...

[jiggersplat]

Oh thank god. CAN is so ridiculously slow and old. And auto version of the EtherNet/IP would be awesome. It has been around for a long time now and is plenty stable and reliable, even for use in industrial machinery systems where peoples lives would be in danger or it could cause environmental disasters if it weren't reliable. It should have been brought over to the auto world a long time ago.

I think this is probably where the industry is headed next.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EtherCAT

[szh]

have no idea what Infiniti and Nissan use ... (assuming you are limiting yourself to that mftr). And, there are new transport methods in the works ... Ethernet in the cars is going to be a next-gen protocol that replaces the current serial CAN transports in many cars.

Oh thank god. CAN is so ridiculously slow and old. And auto version of the EtherNet/IP would be awesome. It has been around for a long time now and is plenty stable and reliable, even for use in industrial machinery systems where peoples lives would be in danger or it could cause environmental disasters if it weren't reliable. It should have been brought over to the auto world a long time ago.

It is still a few years away though ... probably another 5 to 7 years before cars actually use it. The speed increase will be from the CANbus at 1 Mbit/sec to Ethernet at 100 Mbit/sec (at least, that is the current expectation).

Z

[szh]

Oh thank god. CAN is so ridiculously slow and old. And auto version of the EtherNet/IP would be awesome. It has been around for a long time now and is plenty stable and reliable, even for use in industrial machinery systems where peoples lives would be in danger or it could cause environmental disasters if it weren't reliable. It should have been brought over to the auto world a long time ago.

I think this is probably where the industry is headed next.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EtherCAT

It is indeed one of the possibilities, along with Ethernet/IP and Ethernet Powerlink. No actual selection yet, AFAIK.

The SAE folks, along with a number of auto OEMs, are working on the technical details of this choice.

Z

[jiggersplat]

Back to the topic at hand... If you pick up a consult tool and a USB can bus interface you can probably sniff out most of the pids you want.

[TDot]

I believe it's only one ECU...

So the BCM and other "brains" talking back and forth are not considered ECUs? Just want to know if I should look to listen to them on a different protocol in case they are carrying info I may need.

Back to the topic at hand... If you pick up a consult tool and a USB can bus interface you can probably sniff out most of the pids you want.

Thats what I'm doing. Just trying to widdle things down and get shortcuts in case someone already has access.

[jiggersplat]

I'd be surprised if the other modules used something other than CAN. You can check the wiring diagrams for the BCM/IPDM/ECM etc. They probably all have a CAN-H and CAN-L pins.

[jiggersplat]

It is indeed one of the possibilities, along with Ethernet/IP and Ethernet Powerlink. No actual selection yet, AFAIK.

The SAE folks, along with a number of auto OEMs, are working on the technical details of this choice.

Do you know if any of these address any of the security issues related to CAN?

[TDot]

They probably all have a CAN-H and CAN-L pins.

Thats what i figured. I guess i have to figure out their address and start filtering.

[Ilya]

I believe it's only one ECU...

So the BCM and other "brains" talking back and forth are not considered ECUs? Just want to know if I should look to listen to them on a different protocol in case they are carrying info I may need.

No. BCM is BCM. ECU is strictly engine control...and there is only one of those as far as I know. BCM, TCM and all other computers are not considered ECU's.

[szh]

So the BCM and other "brains" talking back and forth are not considered ECUs? Just want to know if I should look to listen to them on a different protocol in case they are carrying info I may need.

No. BCM is BCM. ECU is strictly engine control...and there is only one of those as far as I know. BCM, TCM and all other computers are not considered ECU's.

Yeah. However, there are a lot of independent processing elements in cars now - the new generic term is "TCU", although that used to mean "Transmission Control Unit".

Z

[szh]

It is indeed one of the possibilities, along with Ethernet/IP and Ethernet Powerlink. No actual selection yet, AFAIK.

The SAE folks, along with a number of auto OEMs, are working on the technical details of this choice.

Do you know if any of these address any of the security issues related to CAN?

Definitely!!! There is a huge effort in the works for security in general for automotive applications across the board. Particularly for "updatable" elements inside cars.

I could give you quite a few links to the work going on ... take a look at what Movimento is up to (http://movimentogroup.com/products/movi ... rsecurity/) for an example.

Z

[szh]

Here, for example, is a more technical paper on the topic of CANbus security: http://www.osna-solutions.com/wp-conten ... xtract.pdf - it was done for a college thesis, but the overview is good. And there are a ton of references in there to other work.

Z

[Ilya]

No. BCM is BCM. ECU is strictly engine control...and there is only one of those as far as I know. BCM, TCM and all other computers are not considered ECU's.

Yeah. However, there are a lot of independent processing elements in cars now - the new generic term is "TCU", although that used to mean "Transmission Control Unit".

Z

True, true. I think the M has like 11 computers if I'm not mistaking?

[TDot]

So this is what I found the layout of the Nissan "brains", ecu, tcu, processors, modules, or whatever their called as a group and how they are spread between the different com lines.

CAN coms line (pins 14, 6) for CPU, Intelligent Key, body control module.
DDL2 coms line (pins 7) for ECM, air bag, ABS
DDL coms line (pins 13, 12) for Transmission control module.

Hopefully this is the same for Infiniti....we'll see.