Hey maybe someone can help me i wanna install a turbo for my g35 anyone got any ideas or any websites where i can find turbo for a 6mt g35 coupe 2004? plz help me out

Greddy had their kit on display at Sema on a G35C. Probably a 350Z kit. I'm not sure if it will bolt on directly or if they are planning to release a G35C version. JWT is working on a kit that should be CARB legal later this year. According to their website, the kit itself is complete, but they are testing and tuning. I like what I am seeing from the JWT kit. It places an intercooler over each of the lower openings on each side of the bumper.

http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/news.asp

I also believe that SSR Engineering is working on a turbo kit as well. The Greddy is quite impressive from what I have read and seen. And the JWT looks to be well thought out and done also. I am sure that there are a few other companies working turbo's for the G, but it just takes a little time to get everything done before it can go to market.

And welcome to NICO.

Thanks alot fellas will post pics laterz

ilovecs wrote:Hey maybe someone can help me i wanna install a turbo for my g35 anyone got any ideas or any websites where i can find turbo for a 6mt g35 coupe 2004? plz help me out

Don’t rule out a supercharger…

I also think that Top Secret has Turbo kit coming out here in the near future.

Being in CA, I'd probably opt for a CARB approved system. JWT says they will. Greddy has good history f doing so with most of their kits. But if between Greddy and JWT. JWT wins. Greddy uses mitsu turbos, which use a smaller bearing than Garret based turbos. Not to mention the JWT turbos offered with the kit use ball bearings.

Supercharger kits I have seen are nice, and should have an easier time making it passed the CARB. But the only two I'd consider, ATI and Vortech, use Centrifugal chargers which are not as broad iin making power as a well chosen turbo. The Stillen Kit is not currently intercooled and forces a body enhancement. Neither of which I am a fan of.

SSR has a Twin Turbo / Twin Intercooled kit that produces about 400hp at the rear wheels. A price is still TBD. Last I read they are probably going to offer a group rate that would cost $500-$1,000 off of whatever retail they place on it.

rydwhite wrote:SSR has a Twin Turbo / Twin Intercooled kit that produces about 400hp at the rear wheels. A price is still TBD. Last I read they are probably going to offer a group rate that would cost $500-$1,000 off of whatever retail they place on it.

http://www.ssr-engineering.com...o.php



I don't think the welds or quality gets any better then that, this is my favorite kit out there by far. No crappy mild steel or cast iron manifolds, no cheap fuel solution and g35 specific using twin intercoolers etc.

Is that a bracket holding the turbo to the tranny? I hope not. It would be a shame to crack a stainless steel mani. I'm a bit concerned about the wastegate dump re-entry as well. And angled re-entry would be optimal...

The stainless steel is beautiful though.....

C-Kwik wrote:Is that a bracket holding the turbo to the tranny? I hope not. It would be a shame to crack a stainless steel mani. I'm a bit concerned about the wastegate dump re-entry as well. And angled re-entry would be optimal...

The stainless steel is beautiful though.....

I'm sure thats why the bracket is there, to counter the weight of the turbo lieng on the manifold.

Does anyone know of a decent bolt on turbo for an 03 G35coupe that can get an additional 50 HP that is reliable and doesn't kill the reliability of the engine long term?

If you're looking to turbocharge such an engine: (Although I'm perfectly ok with my 280hp)

1. Decide where you want added power; bottom end/mid-range/peak. This will dictate what setup you will go for. I would definetely stay away from VNT turbo setups... choose either a Garrett T3 (old school) or T4 setup. Something with approximately a .45 A/R ratio tuned to 15psi at full boost should do the trick for a beginner setup. Make sure wastegate and overboost protection valve are working properly!!! Install Boost gauge!!!

2. You MUST install a EGT gauge (pyrometer), if your EGT's are above 1200F about 3-5 inches away from cyl.#1 on the exhaust port (obviously), when accelerating HARD... not a safe setup. Install intercooler to lower EGT's.

3. Good Luck... you're a brave soul. (or have LOTS of money to blow)

:ylsuper

XtremeHKS wrote:I'm sure thats why the bracket is there, to counter the weight of the turbo lieng on the manifold.

A well made turbo manifold can hold up a turbo with little effort. The resistance to movement from a solid mounted exhaust puts more stress on a manifold than a turbo's weight would. Keep in mind that stainless steel has a high rate of expansion compared to a cast iron or mild steel mani and can easliy develop a lot of stress of proper precautions are not taken to allow the parts to expand under heat changes. There is a reason manufacturers use rubber exhaust hangers. Exhaust parts get hot and expand. If they were bolted to the car directly, it would crack something to relieve the stress.

MapleLeaf wrote:If you're looking to turbocharge such an engine: (Although I'm perfectly ok with my 280hp)

1. Decide where you want added power; bottom end/mid-range/peak. This will dictate what setup you will go for. I would definetely stay away from VNT turbo setups... choose either a Garrett T3 (old school) or T4 setup. Something with approximately a .45 A/R ratio tuned to 15psi at full boost should do the trick for a beginner setup. Make sure wastegate and overboost protection valve are working properly!!! Install Boost gauge!!!

2. You MUST install a EGT gauge (pyrometer), if your EGT's are above 1200F about 3-5 inches away from cyl.#1 on the exhaust port (obviously), when accelerating HARD... not a safe setup. Install intercooler to lower EGT's.

3. Good Luck... you're a brave soul. (or have LOTS of money to blow)

:ylsuper

1. Would you like to support your reasoning here? I prefer to do the flow calculations and determine what compressor maps suit the motor best to narrow down potential choices. You make quite a bit of generalizations about turbo size, which to an extent are true, but you have to consider there are several turbo trims within each family of turbos. And what data are you basing a .45 A/R on? Especially considering it will have much different characteristics depending on what turbine trim you use with it. And where do you come up with 15 psi? Especially given that you haven't specified a turbo. Turbo sizing has a very big impact on how much stress a motor sees at a given boost level. And 15 psi is a relatively high amount of boost for a beginner to handle on this motor, considering I'm hearing the VQ's internals may be questionable somewhere beyond 400 HP. 15 psi with 3.5L will probably put out close to 450 HP at the wheels. Depends on the turbo, but I'm assuming a reasonably well chosen turbo.

I'd be more worried about the wastegate failing. Overboost protection valves are more of a safety net, and likely a waste on a street car. Wastegates in general tend to be pretty reliable. It's not a bad idea to have a pop-off valve, but I wouldn't consider it to be a necessity.

2. I'd hardly consider an EGT gauge to be a necessity as well. In fact there are so many things that can affect EGT's that it's not the most accurate choice to base your tuning on. If anything, you use it to tell you if something is going wrong (say a drastic change occurs where EGT's were consistent before). And adding an intercooler is not going to necessarily fix high EGT's. In fact it may cause higher EGT's. EGT's are reflective of the combustion temperature. This is affected by high peak cylinder pressures, and lean fuel mixtures. If a car is running lean due to injectors being just about maxed out, an intercooler may worsen the situation as a denser charge of air is going to have a higher oxygen content. Without being able to add more fuel, it will lean out further and may be more prone to detonation. High EGT's though are only an indication that something may be wrong or perhaps poorly tuned. A wideband and 4-gas analyzer will be much more helpful in making sure it is tuned properly. If you design the system to be reliable, there is little chance that you will need to monitor guages. It's not like many OEM turbo cars come with all these guages. Hell, you are probably lucky if you get a decent boost gauge in a factory turbo car.

OC G35 wrote:Does anyone know of a decent bolt on turbo for an 03 G35coupe that can get an additional 50 HP that is reliable and doesn't kill the reliability of the engine long term?

A 50 HP kit on a G35 will put very little stress. Consider that doubling a motor's output through turbocharging requires that you double the pressure ratio(In theory, but in actuality, we have seen this is rather conservative). 1 is atmospheric(sea level is 14.7 psi). A pressure ratio of 2 would be 14.7 psi at sea level. In any case, doubling the power out put does not double the peak loads on the motor however. Peak cylinder pressures may be about 50% higher, but it won't be close to being doubled. Most of the power is made throughout the piston's combustion stroke, with the largest increase being after the cylinder already hits the peak pressure.

Reliability comes from proper tuning and controlling heat. You will also need a more stringent maintenance schedule, but there is no reason even a relatively high boost turbo can't be reliable. At least up until the point where parts just simply can not handle the loads.

Quote »1. Would you like to support your reasoning here? I prefer to do the flow calculations and determine what compressor maps suit the motor best to narrow down potential choices. You make quite a bit of generalizations about turbo size, which to an extent are true, but you have to consider there are several turbo trims within each family of turbos. And what data are you basing a .45 A/R on? Especially considering it will have much different characteristics depending on what turbine trim you use with it. And where do you come up with 15 psi? Especially given that you haven't specified a turbo. Turbo sizing has a very big impact on how much stress a motor sees at a given boost level. And 15 psi is a relatively high amount of boost for a beginner to handle on this motor, considering I'm hearing the VQ's internals may be questionable somewhere beyond 400 HP. 15 psi with 3.5L will probably put out close to 450 HP at the wheels. Depends on the turbo, but I'm assuming a reasonably well chosen turbo.

I'd be more worried about the wastegate failing. Overboost protection valves are more of a safety net, and likely a waste on a street car. Wastegates in general tend to be pretty reliable. It's not a bad idea to have a pop-off valve, but I wouldn't consider it to be a necessity.

2. I'd hardly consider an EGT gauge to be a necessity as well. In fact there are so many things that can affect EGT's that it's not the most accurate choice to base your tuning on. If anything, you use it to tell you if something is going wrong (say a drastic change occurs where EGT's were consistent before). And adding an intercooler is not going to necessarily fix high EGT's. In fact it may cause higher EGT's. EGT's are reflective of the combustion temperature. This is affected by high peak cylinder pressures, and lean fuel mixtures. If a car is running lean due to injectors being just about maxed out, an intercooler may worsen the situation as a denser charge of air is going to have a higher oxygen content. Without being able to add more fuel, it will lean out further and may be more prone to detonation. High EGT's though are only an indication that something may be wrong or perhaps poorly tuned. A wideband and 4-gas analyzer will be much more helpful in making sure it is tuned properly. If you design the system to be reliable, there is little chance that you will need to monitor guages. It's not like many OEM turbo cars come with all these guages. Hell, you are probably lucky if you get a decent boost gauge in a factory turbo car.[/quote]

This is my 2nd post here but I've had enough experience with turbo setups to talk liberally about them.

1. I believe I've specified a turbo (Garrett T3), if you want to be more specific we can use a T04B as an example.

2. I don't believe that 15psi (FULL BOOST) of boost with a .45 A/R (or .42 A/R for the T04B) is a tremendous amount of boost. If you were talking about a .60 A/R, I'd agree with you completely. I'd say THAT's overkill, and you'd probably end up melting your pistons.

3. I'm not sure how a wastegate could fail unless it was attached to a REALLY neglected housing. It's a pretty simple mechanical device. Why do you consider an overboost protection valve to be "a waste on a street car" how would it affect the overall performance of the turbo/engine setup??

4. I'm not really understanding the point you're trying to make with the EGT's, all you've done isgiven us a definition of Exhaust Gas Temerature. Also, I would NEVER install a custom turbo setup without an EGT gauge. That's suicide. Period.

5. Regarding your theory with intercoolers, they are NOT compressors as you have defined. They strictly cool the air to be compressed by the turbocharger. So the leaner mixture can only be caused by the turbocharger itself, not the intercooler.

I believe your 450hp claim to be correct. Wow!!!!!

ALSO, being that the 3.5L is not intended for turbocharging, I assume it is missing one VERY important set of components.. oil squirters underneath each piston. This is crucial for piston cooling of a turbocharged engine. If someone were to attempt this, I would strongly advise lowering the compression ratio (perhaps by adding a thicker head gasket) to prolong the life of the engine.

I would LOVE to see a turbo setup on one of these cars... and I wish I had the time (and money) to do it on my own. Maybe in a few years when the car is a little older and out of warranty.

MapleLeaf wrote:This is my 2nd post here but I've had enough experience with turbo setups to talk liberally about them.

1. I believe I've specified a turbo (Garrett T3), if you want to be more specific we can use a T04B as an example.

2. I don't believe that 15psi (FULL BOOST) of boost with a .45 A/R (or .42 A/R for the T04B) is a tremendous amount of boost. If you were talking about a .60 A/R, I'd agree with you completely. I'd say THAT's overkill, and you'd probably end up melting your pistons.

3. I'm not sure how a wastegate could fail unless it was attached to a REALLY neglected housing. It's a pretty simple mechanical device. Why do you consider an overboost protection valve to be "a waste on a street car" how would it affect the overall performance of the turbo/engine setup??

4. I'm not really understanding the point you're trying to make with the EGT's, all you've done isgiven us a definition of Exhaust Gas Temerature. Also, I would NEVER install a custom turbo setup without an EGT gauge. That's suicide. Period.

5. Regarding your theory with intercoolers, they are NOT compressors as you have defined. They strictly cool the air to be compressed by the turbocharger. So the leaner mixture can only be caused by the turbocharger itself, not the intercooler.

I believe your 450hp claim to be correct. Wow!!!!!

ALSO, being that the 3.5L is not intended for turbocharging, I assume it is missing one VERY important set of components.. oil squirters underneath each piston. This is crucial for piston cooling of a turbocharged engine. If someone were to attempt this, I would strongly advise lowering the compression ratio (perhaps by adding a thicker head gasket) to prolong the life of the engine.

I would LOVE to see a turbo setup on one of these cars... and I wish I had the time (and money) to do it on my own. Maybe in a few years when the car is a little older and out of warranty.

1. As I've said, a T3 is not a specific turbo. It's specifies a family of turbo. But within this family, you can have several variations of trim and A/R for both the compressor and turbine housings. Each of which affects how the turbo responds and how efficiently it compresses air. The same is true of T04 compressors and turbines.

2. Do you even have any idea what an A/R is? I'm thinking you do not. A/R or Area/Radius ratio is basically the area of the entry cross section of the turbine(outlet for the compressor) divided by the radius of the center of the nozzle from the center of the turbine shaft. For a given turine or compressor, it's usually the area that changes while the radius is the constant. So this is basically referring to the size of the nozzle. Smaller nozzles increase gas velocity, but decrease flow and vice-versa. However, turbo trim is a very important aspect of turbo size and how it responds. Typically, the outer diameter of a turbine or compressor wheel within a family of turbos stays the same, but the minor diameter changes. As with larger A/R's, a larger turbine wheel is slower to respond, but flows more and vice-versa. On the compressor side, the A/R has much less effect but it can make a slight difference. The Trim will dictate how efficiently air will be compressed depending on flowrate and the amount of boost. This determines how much heat is added from the compression of air, and also how much turbine shaft torque is needed to compress the air. Basically a more efficient turbo will produce more power for a give boost. And as far as A/R affecting your pistons, a larger A/R will actually reduce the stress the motor sees as it allows for more flow and less backpressure in the exhaust manifold for a given amount of power. Melting pistons is generally something caused by detonation. If you are melting pistons, I'd blame the tuning before blaming the pistons or the turbo. As a final note on A/R, if you look at turbonetics' compressor maps, it tells you nothing of the A/R, yet several A/R's are available for each turbo trim.

3. I've seen external wastegates fail. Internal ones can also fail. In fact no part is guaranteed not to. And even if say the wastegate signal line failed, you'd get an overhboost situation. An overboost protection valve is a waste because wastegate failures tend to be relatively rare and perhaps gradual, and it would have no affect on performance if all is working properly. It would really be a safety net in case something fails that causes an overboost situation. I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, but rather it's not necessary and the chances of it ever coming into use are small, unless you put the system together horribly.

4. I have a turbo on my 240sx and I have no EGT. My motor itself is stock and still running strong after 2 years. Many others I know have also done the same. I'd be more inclined to use a wideband for tuning than an EGT. In fact using an EGT is a poor way of tuning any car. It can help to warn you of a potential problem, but is not accurate enough(in terms of measuring A/F ratios and timing issues) to tune with.

5. Intercoolers are not compression devices. I never said they were. But when you cool air, then within a given volume and pressure it will have a higher mass of air. So if you are seeing 15 psi at 300 degrees and 15 psi at 150 degrees, the air at the lower temp will have more mass, and thus more oxygen. This means more fuel is needed for a proper mixture.

There are no specific design features on engines specific to turbos. Factories to tend towards using thicker rods and lower compression as a safety net, but it doesn't mean it is necessary. Pistons oil squirters are a nice feature but certainly not a necessity. Hell, my KA24DE came with them from the factory and it was never turbocharged by Nissan. I'd be reluctant to simply lower compression as a way of increasing longevity unless detonation issues are arising. As I've already stated, even doubling HP using a turbo only increases peak cylinder pressures by about 50%. And generally if the motor is able to run a certain amount of boost without detonation or failing from sheer compressive loads from normal combustion(no detonation) then there should be little concern of a rod or piston failure. The only exception being if the cooling is not sufficient where too much heat builds up and leads to detonation under sustained boost. Engineers generally consider tensile loads(pulling loads) to be more important when designing connecting rods. Compressive loads do not cause fatigue. Tensile loads do. And tensile loads on a piston motor are dependent on piston speed and are highest on the exhaust stroke right before it hits TDC.

I also tend to think that using a thicker head gasket is a poor way to decrease compression. A modern head uses quench pads where the outer edge of the piston comes very close to the head. This helps squish the mixture inwards, reduces the chances of detonation and helps to reduce damage from detonation should it occur. Ring lands are the part of a piston most prone to damage from detonation. Increasing the space between the piston and the head here might do more harm than good. If I am in a position where I think I need to lower compression, I'd prefer to do it with lower compression pistons. Otherwise stay within the limits of the available fuel and tuning.

There are so many variables when it comes to turbocharging that nothing is absolute. Turbo technology has grown quickly in the last decade and we've learned quite a bit about making power with them from this huge explosion in the import drag racing scene. There is no one single formula for building a turbo motor.

And lastly, please know my intent is not to flame you. I feel you have said a lot of things that are inaccurate and I refuse to let poor information to be passed unchecked if I can help it. I don't want anything I say to discourage you from posting however. And I hold no discretion as to how long you've been posting. I will tell anyone I think they are wrong if that's what I think. And feel free to challange my knowledge. I love a good technical debate.

Quote »And lastly, please know my intent is not to flame you. I feel you have said a lot of things that are inaccurate and I refuse to let poor information to be passed unchecked if I can help it. I don't want anything I say to discourage you from posting however. And I hold no discretion as to how long you've been posting. I will tell anyone I think they are wrong if that's what I think. And feel free to challange my knowledge. I love a good technical debate. [/quote]

I'm glad to see there's cool guys on here. But, I STILL have to question you on a few points you've made.....

First let me thank you again on giving us yet another definition of the simple A/R formula. What have I said that implied I knew nothing about A/R??

Second, let me say that anyone and everyone knows about the expansion theory, but I still say that your claims of higher EGT's with the use of an intercooler is simply laughable. I have yet to see one real world application where the EGT's have increased due to the use of an intercooler, you know why? Because it doesn't exist.

Also, I believe YOUR suggestion of not using an overboost protector is simply bad advice. Worse than any I've given, that's for sure.

As for the EGT gauge, how can it measure timing???? Enlighten me. Please.

Lastly, your claim of turbo specific engines not being any different in construction from their NA counterparts is simply FALSE. Magnesium alloys have always been incorporated into the tall blocks of all turbocharged/supercharged production cars (of caliber). Also, I don't see how using a head gasket with a millimeter difference in height will somehow lower the durability of the engine. If anything, different pistons with different alloys which have a different expansion rate to the block's alloy will be FAR more dangerous. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for after market pistons, but only to raise compression in a normally aspirated engine. That's all. I still can't believe you'd go with AM pistons rather than a head gasket. That's just silly.

The G35 Coupe is new to me. But I've been working on german cars for as long as I can remember. I have never seen oil squirters in a N/A engine. Are you referring to oil galleries to the camshafts(in your 240SX)???

As for your claim of connecting rods being most vulnerable at tensile loads, I disagree with you completely. I have seen many examples of bent connecting rods due to compressive force, this eventually led to the cylinder walls to go out of round due to the "digging" effect of the misaligned piston.

You're reference to how much boost you run on a specific A/R is what is making me question your knowledge of A/Rs. Considering you can have a .42 A/R or a .60 A/R on a T3 or T4 turbine(theoretically, I don't feel like checking my parts catalogs to confirm their availability) and they will have vastly different effects on power and boost delivery. You mention that a .60 A/R would be overkill and would melt your pistons. However, this is absolutely false. A bigger A/R allows more flow and allows the motor to run with less backpressure, which frees up power and or allows a motor to run the same amount of power with less stress than using a smaller A/R for a given turbine.

EGT's as I said are affected by a lot of factors. Generally, the closer you get towards detonation, the hotter the EGT's become. Leaner fuel mixtures and too much timing advance are too factors that lead to detonation. If you take a non-intercooled turbo set-up that is running just about maxing out the fuel system and then add an intercooler, you could end up in a situation where the higher oxygen content that results from the denser, cooler air, causes a lean condition as the fuel system cannot provide enough fuel to compensate.

Find me one aftermarket turbo kit that has an overboost protection device. Frankly, I can't even think one person I know who has turbocharged a car that has one. Wastegate failures are typically gradual. If you destroy a motor from a wastegate failure like this, you probably should not own a turbo car. Detonation is easily heard and you should be able to back off before anything is damaged. If you suffer from a wastegate signal line that breaks or comes off, then chances are the installation or choice of materials was poor. As I said, it's not necessarily a bad idea to have this, but with some careful forethought it would be doubtful that it would ever be used. In fact, I'd say very few people who actually install one will ever have seen a situation where it ever had to be used.

I never said the EGT can measure timing. It can see the affects of timing, but not specifically. A 4-gas analyzer is necessary to determine if timing adjustments are optimal.

I'd like to see specific data on the metallurgy of factory turbocharged blocks haveing different materials. And even if they did, does it make it anymore suitable or one that is not any less suitable for turbocharging? Take one look at the KA24DET forum. There is a guy who is pulling 400 HP at the wheels on stock internals. On Freshalloy, Mike Lee pulled off over 500 HP on a KA with a built block and that was on a shakedown run. And I can think of a few others running 350 HP on stock internals.

Using a thicker headgasket doesn't change the strength of the parts, but lowers a motor's resistance to detonation. Detonation can produce peak loads and heat up to 10 times that of normal combustion. This is far more damaging to motors than simply doubling boost. Try reading this: http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcrob/rt-fuel2.html

Aftermarket pistons are a very viable way to lower compression and will generally be stronger than a typical cast piston. Certainly expansion from heat is a concern, but proper bore sizing and/or choice of piston material can solve these problems. If you want to keep cylinder wall to piston clearances similar to stock, you can always opt to machine the pistons with a dish(up to as much as is safely allowed based on the piston design) or perhaps find a replacement with the same alloy content designed with a lower compression ratio.

And the KA does indeed come with oil squirters from the factory. I am referring to the ones that squirt oil at the bottom of the pistons. Welcome to the overengineered world of Japanese imports.

As far as connecting rods, I never said you cannot surpass compressive load strengths. Only that engineers designing connecting rods put a lot more attention to detail with making sure the tensile loads do not cause fatigue. This affects the longevity of a con-rod far more than compressive loads. Detonation or simply boosting too much can certainly bend a rod. But compressive loads do not cause fatigue. If the rod can handle the load you put on it from turbocharging on day one, then 10 years from now, it will still be in once piece assuming nothing else goes catastrophincally wrong(overboost/detonation, etc). The same can't be said about tensile loads should you increase the tensile load to a point where it fatigues the rod. If you do not believe me, look at the design of a typical rod. It is noticably thicker at the base near the crank. It gets thinner up near the wrist pin. The closer you are to the crank, the more weight that portion of the rod is having to pull on as the rod moves up towards TDC. Keeping the portion of the rod thinner towards the wrist pin also keeps less load on the base of the rod near the crank. If you still do not belive me, find a copy of Maximum Boost by Corky Bell and open it up to page 3,4 and 5. He states it on page 5, but the two pages before it lead into the discussion. If you still want to argue it, take it up with Corky. Last I checked he has a mechanical engineering degree with more than 25 years of turbocharging experience.

Welcome to NICO MapleLeaf.

Thanks for keeping the debate civil you guys. I'm learning alot about the technology of turbos.

in the DSM world, there exists the 4g63t and the 4g63na... one wit hoil spuirters and one without. as the 4g63 block becomes a little harder to find from Japanese importers or not local to somepeople, I know of several people switching to a na bnlock w/o squirters with no ill effects. but they are a nice thing to have. the bigger difference between NA and FI engines is that typically the NA engine will be consideravly higher compression from the factory. the 1g 4g63t comes with 7.8:1 and the NA is 9:1. the squirters will have much less to say about what boost levels your engine can handle than your compression ratio and the silicon content ofyour stock pistons does...my $.02

EGT's will be more indicative of your engine timing if you have an active knock sensor that retards timing.. such as in the 4g63t (sorry to keep using this engine but I know it best) the reason the EGT;s shoot up with knock in the engine retards timing as commanded by the ECU based off input from the knock sensor. with retarded timing the flame front finishes developing later in the power stroke and thusly carries more heat with it on the way out during the exhaust stroke. HELLO high EGT's... if you have a car with no knock sensor or one that is fairly unresponsive then your EGT's will be less informative... in the case of these wonderful VQ's.. how's the knock sensor?

and one more thing to consider when you buy your all mighty garret turbo... is it water cooled or oil cooled? a lot of the aftermarket kit makers use the oil cooled garret turbos because of the ease of installation but those turbo's are made for diesel applications which do not get nearly as hot as a gasoline engine... heat kills :-( all Mitsu turbo's I've seen that would even be remotely appropriately sized for auotmotive applications is water cooled.

gsxtasee wrote:in the DSM world, there exists the 4g63t and the 4g63na... one wit hoil spuirters and one without. as the 4g63 block becomes a little harder to find from Japanese importers or not local to somepeople, I know of several people switching to a na bnlock w/o squirters with no ill effects. but they are a nice thing to have. the bigger difference between NA and FI engines is that typically the NA engine will be consideravly higher compression from the factory. the 1g 4g63t comes with 7.8:1 and the NA is 9:1. the squirters will have much less to say about what boost levels your engine can handle than your compression ratio and the silicon content ofyour stock pistons does...my $.02

7.8:1 is god awful low. With the advancements in fuel injection and turbos I see no reason to go below even 9.5:1 CR's unless you are forced to use poor fuel(low octane) or boosting high on non-race fuel. I agree about the oil squirters. If anything, they will have some benefit if detonation occurs and help to keep the piston stronger by keeping the pistons cooler, but if you get no detonation then it's not of a lot of value. Race motors may see more benfit as well as they tend to be tuned closer to detonation thresolds than most street cars.

gsxtasee wrote:EGT's will be more indicative of your engine timing if you have an active knock sensor that retards timing.. such as in the 4g63t (sorry to keep using this engine but I know it best) the reason the EGT;s shoot up with knock in the engine retards timing as commanded by the ECU based off input from the knock sensor. with retarded timing the flame front finishes developing later in the power stroke and thusly carries more heat with it on the way out during the exhaust stroke. HELLO high EGT's... if you have a car with no knock sensor or one that is fairly unresponsive then your EGT's will be less informative... in the case of these wonderful VQ's.. how's the knock sensor?

Yeah, but it's not specific to timing. Perhaps if you datalog a lot of information it might be more indicative, but an EGT by itself tells you there may be a problem but not a whole lot more.

gsxtasee wrote:and one more thing to consider when you buy your all mighty garret turbo... is it water cooled or oil cooled? a lot of the aftermarket kit makers use the oil cooled garret turbos because of the ease of installation but those turbo's are made for diesel applications which do not get nearly as hot as a gasoline engine... heat kills :-( all Mitsu turbo's I've seen that would even be remotely appropriately sized for auotmotive applications is water cooled.

Oil cooling is plenty durable. It's the oil that is not. Conventional oils will breakdown rather quickly in a oil-cooled turbo. Synthetics should prove to be much more durable. The big benefit of watercooled turbos are that since they run cooler, you generally do not have to wait for the turbo bearings to cool before shutting down the motor. Last I checked btw, Greddy Turbo kits do not come watercooled and they use Mitsu turbos. Or perhaps they may not use the water jackets, but either way. And currently, I don't know of any OEM turbo car that doesn't use water-cooled turbos. Before water jackets were introduced, turbos got a severely bad rap due to coking issues from hot shutdowns. And if you would like to start a Mitsu vs Garrett Turbo Debate, look no further than the small thrust bearings or the lack of ball bearing options on the Mitsu Turbos. But that's only if you would like to debate it.

On a side note, I am rather surprised that on an HKS Kit I installed on a Supra wasn't water cooled. Considering the water connections already exist as oppsed to trying to water cool a turbo on a motor that started out NA. As much as I love my own turbo, I'd love to be able to shut down my car instead of running it on a turbo timer. And I am too lazy right now to figure out a way to arm the alarm while it runs off the timer.

Quote »Welcome to NICO MapleLeaf.[/quote]

Thanks a lot. You can tell a whole lot about a board's maturity level by the kind of responses one gets to questions/problems. I say this board is on its way to being something really great. I wish it all the best and hope to contribute my knowledge (no matter how inaccurate it may be! tsk,tsk.) to future posts.

Quote »Oil cooling is plenty durable. It's the oil that is not. Conventional oils will breakdown rather quickly in a oil-cooled turbo. Synthetics should prove to be much more durable.[/quote]

Although I agree that an oil cooled turbo is very durable, it seems you may have opened up "Pandora's Box" with the oil thing. I wouldn't go as far as categorizing oil as synthetic=good, and dyno=not as good. ... I would trust many dyno oils over some synths. For example, I believe Chevron's Delo 400 or Mobil's Delvac 1300 Super to be exceptional dyno oils, much better than Castrol Syntec for example. For the record, I only use Mobil 1 Synthetic in my vehicles, because I believe it's the best oil out there... synth OR dyno.

Also, it seems to me that we are speaking two different dialects here. There ARE differences between "Track" and "Street" turbo setups.

C-Kwik, you seem to be more knowledgeable on building race setups, although I'm sure you're only running 5-6psi in that 240 of yours, am I right?

If Fred(PalmerWMD) sees this post, I'm sure he can elaborate more on oils. I can really only speak on a general level as far as oils are concerned. But I do know there is a version of Castrol Syntec that he seems to hold with high regard. Browse around or search on oil related topics. He has put some very detailed information about oils.

Concepts in turbocharging do not care if it's used on the street or track. You can, of course, make some manipulations to suit your tastes or maximize certain properties to make the most of what is available. Of course there is some consideration that would be necessary to make sure extended and repeated amounts of boost can be handled by the motor and cooling system(motor and intercooler). Controlling heat and keeping it relatively consistent makes it much easier to build a reliable race system and consequently, thinking about this makes for a very reliable street system. You can make certain types of compromises on a car that will not see track time, but it will never ignore the basic physics of turbocharging. Understanding what makes a turbo system withstand track conditions will help you to understand what can make an acceptable street system.

And what is streetable or track only is really subjective anyways. I try to leave most subjectivity out of technical arguments, or if I do add my own opinions, I try to make it known that it is my opinion.

As far as my own car, it is boosting to 6.5 psi. I do take it on race tracks and spent some time making sure it can handle track duty. But most of the hardparts that came with my kit are quite sufficient to handle track duty. I've only had to make minor changes. Of course if I increase the boost, I may need to make further adjustments. And my car is primarily used for commuting, so it must be streetable as well.

And currently, I don't know of any OEM turbo car that doesn't use water-cooled turbos. Before water jackets were introduced, turbos got a severely bad rap due to coking issues from hot shutdowns.

And if you would like to start a Mitsu vs Garrett Turbo Debate, look no further than the small thrust bearings or the lack of ball bearing options on the Mitsu Turbos. But that's only if you would like to debate it.

On a side note, I am rather surprised that on an HKS Kit I installed on a Supra wasn't water cooled. Considering the water connections already exist as oppsed to trying to water cool a turbo on a motor that started out NA

you made my point here. if the factory is using water cooled turbos, why would oyu add a turbo to a NA car or change turbo's on your car and take a step backward to oil cooled?

no question here, if the debate is BB v. normal, then Garret wins, otherwise, Mitsu has some DAMN fine turbos that have great longevity and make great power... My DSM is Mitsu powered all the way.. wanna race? it's a 4-door :-)

I agreed already, I htink it's stoopid to go from water cooled to oil cooled... it is kinda-sorta O.K. if you are turboing and NA car (which I wouldn't normally do...) but I'd never do it on a factory turbocharged car