Long awaited Dyno Results of Ajax's NA KA!

[Ajax]

[Ajax]

Here's what we know for certain is on the car:Fisher Harmonic DamperKoyo Radiator with electric fanFidanza Flywheel and ACT street clutchOBX header, high flow cat and 5zigen exhaustBrian Crower Cams (V2)Jim Wolf ECU

It should also have (but has not been verified yet):.050 overborecustom Ross pistonsaftermarket rods (I highly doubt this one)port and polishfull balance

I'm thinking of getting the set of pulleys from stillracing. And DJpants' intake manifold will be going on my engine as well as an aluminum driveshaft. I think we can net 180 rwhp.

[neverlift]

that sir looks to be proof you got fuct

[DjPantsSpecR]

Yeah, im a bit worried dave. However, i LOVE to see the car making 150ft/lbs at 3k. KA24DE ftw.

however, assuming your car started stock and dynoed at 135hp. (now all this dyno talk is semi-stupid as everyones dyno is different, you cant measure things when everyones ruler has a different sized inch you know?) But lets jsut piss int he wind for a second.

171-135 = 36hp. now if we start nitpicking: you dont have a 3in exhaust, but that fireball is a 2.5, and coupled with the catco cat and the OBX header you should be making at least 15hp there. (we've seen proof here on NICO that the 3in SSAC n1 duals liek i have make 12whp, the DC Sports header i have makes 7hp, and gutting your cat can actually make you lose hp...) so 15hp is NOT a bad estimate of exhaust power. so that leaves 21 horse to play around with.

now ive seen some crap on other forums claiming a 16hp gain on a stock KA with jsut the crower v2s. BUT on the crower site they show a 16hp gain on a turbo vehicle making power int he 300s... So, whats a fair estimate? 10whp? sounds good to me, so we have 11 horsies left to find.

i installed your fisher damper, i know how much lighter is is over stock, and i think removing the clutch fan is fair to say it frees up 1-2 hp, also the 11lb flywheel is another free up. i think 4whp is a fair gain to say for alum flywheel, alum damper, and e-fan. 7 more ponies left to find.

i personalyl would be pissed off if i bought a JWT ECU and didnt make 7 horse with it. So, now this is where we sit, right at a good fair mustang dyno style estimate of 171whp.

a .050 overbore, 10.5:1 CR and a port and polish should have you AT LEAST 15hp higher i think. would anyone disagree? probably not...

My new vert jsut pulled 180psi on all four cyls. your 170s are entirely unacceptable, and good proof that there is NO bottom end work done. So both you and me know what we need to do, and a simple headgasket job will show that no headwork was performed and the pistons are stock.

lets get this *******.

[Bigvinnie]

What octane fuel was used?For those bolt ons you should be making more power than that.Even if you did have the crower cams you should be making more power.PDM uses the stock cams and they make 171hp output, I'd say you got screwed BIG TIME.I've seen others make 169HP with just ecu tune, header, 3" exhaust, pulley and 104 octane.Either you aren't using the octane requirement to check where the power is really at or you just flat out got screwed.

[nismofly]

wait this was on a mustang dyno?

thats quite decent if so, because de's normally dyno around 135 stock but thats on dynojets...

[DjPantsSpecR]

no, no no, please dont take my comments as if it were a mustang dyno. usually the dyno sheet would tell you. well maybe not usually...

and i believe the octane for these pulls was readily available pump gas, i believe ajax had ordered the ecu himself for 93. correct me dave.

[neverlift]

I wasnt gonna touch this after I saw the dyno sheet. but being you are on first name with dj I'll give my input.

jwt tunes are a joke( "blind tune" comes to mind and from what I here they are doing shelf tunes and not really tuning atm)

anyways take the ecu they sent you and see if you could just use the d/b in it and have a shop tune it (on dyno) jwt cannot possible give you an agressive enough tune they dont replace peoples engines cause they send weaksauce. sorry to hate on them just dont see the monies = performance.

if you got proof you bought the parts now is when you sue.

170 is bullshyt. is it broke in yet? describe break in to us PLAESE. no granny driving ****. you have to force the rings outward...blah someone posted the right way...my blown sohc(8.6:1) was making 160ish on its "good" cylinder,others were only at 145ish. what does stock de make? 170^? at 9.5:1 I mean lets get real NO work was done not .02 over more or less .05. You took it now give a bigger one back. what is the shop name again?

I can say good too. It builds power past 5k. but it still falls off around 6. I thought the damper would aid more in the top end. now you and dj rip the **** apart and take uber photos. go down to the shop and call the local news station. have a suite waiting on you(attorney). Go in without the news and ask him why? ask for FULL refund including labor/parts if he says no go get the news crew whom you already informed(said pics and story) what is going on,and send them in. I know its ruthless but in jacksonville that is how to reslove stuff. lol the news will handle it. the shop can do one of two things. 1 pay you right then.2 have fun with the media and court case. And still fuggin pay you. and most likely go out of business due to bad publicity. why cant people do wtf they say.

[Ajax]

93 octane.Superflow dyno- I'm not sure beyond that name.As for the ecu- I went JWT partially because it is not the most aggressive tune- This car is sometimes a daily driver, and I certainly don't want things on the edge all the time. Could it be more aggressive and still be safe- I'm sure, but that was the choice I made at the time.Anyway- yeah, we're going to open this up.

On the plus side- I just returned from Chicago and still got 28mpg.

[DjPantsSpecR]

yeah, well since it is jsut a JWT board, theres absolutely no reason we cant swap in a new eprom right? i know Greg gave me a phone nubmer of someone who had some good DE tunes....

But yeah Ajax is my guy, and he deserves his money back, and more horsepower. But as we take it for what it is 171 is a pretty damn good bolt on KA.

But at least you can see the increases top end form those v2 cams. The damper really isnt gonna help with power, but Dave had that custom made and was supposed to be balanced with his entire reciprocating assemby, which we both doubt, especially because it wasnt installed on the car when he got it back. But the new power curve is very characteristic of those v2 cams, it helps a bit out with the top end, but the end is still a KA.

the intake manifold will make a huge difference. I think my fabricator screwed me, i havent tlaked to him in at least a month and he has all my drawings. how ya like that? But for now, we know what we need to do

[Bigvinnie]

the intake manifold will make a huge difference. I think my fabricator screwed me, i havent tlaked to him in at least a month and he has all my drawings. how ya like that? But for now, we know what we need to do

DJ what is the diameter size of your runners going to be???I don't know if you've seen my thread on manifold porting yet but stock runner diameter on AVG. is 44mm, I increase my runners too 45mm. Just checking and comparing differences.

93 octane.Superflow dyno- I'm not sure beyond that name.As for the ecu- I went JWT partially because it is not the most aggressive tune- This car is sometimes a daily driver, and I certainly don't want things on the edge all the time. Could it be more aggressive and still be safe- I'm sure, but that was the choice I made at the time.Anyway- yeah, we're going to open this up.

On the plus side- I just returned from Chicago and still got 28mpg.

Well being that it is a JWT tune you would probably show more power on 104 OCTANE as I have seen with many of the other JWT tunes. Respectively on 104 octane your engine could make relatively 180WHP. Thats about 215HP to the crank on that octane.

[DjPantsSpecR]

45mm, exactly what i want. However my prototype manifold had stock, unported runners and netted significant gains. So you can look forward to a few underlooked ponies as a result, at least theoretically. we'll know in practice. I also had gasket matched the head and runners. which i know youre going to eventually do, as i have read that thread.

i think for shiggles we should continue working with 93, maybe a modified map. It would be interesting to see what kinda gains are possible on pump gas.

course like i said, i dont know if i got screwed on the manifold yet, i might jsut have to try adn make the pieces and have them welded.... but 45mm is around ideal, jsut incase someone was looking to sandwich in some ITBs.

[neverlift]

hey dj thats why you mail the drawings to yourself its like a hood patent. anywho tell the bastard about it and get the design back .

IF the jwt ecu has a duaghter board in it with removable/(eeprom) you can simple get a willems and pull the .bin and tweak that some or I think the jaun willy tune on hybrid may be "decent" for you setup. but IDK open your ecu up to see whats inside....

a pic will help.

hey dj send me a manny I'm de now

I'll be ****ing with cams in a few weeks(probably not gonna swap them around just yet,but gears are a go asap to adjust power band. that along with scv/egr removal and my skimpy mods I should be good for a bit.... ajax go after that company will all you can. bastards

[Bigvinnie]

45mm, exactly what i want. However my prototype manifold had stock, unported runners and netted significant gains. So you can look forward to a few underlooked ponies as a result, at least theoretically. we'll know in practice. I also had gasket matched the head and runners. which i know youre going to eventually do, as i have read that thread.

i think for shiggles we should continue working with 93, maybe a modified map. It would be interesting to see what kinda gains are possible on pump gas.

course like i said, i dont know if i got screwed on the manifold yet, i might jsut have to try adn make the pieces and have them welded.... but 45mm is around ideal, jsut incase someone was looking to sandwich in some ITBs.

Well sorry to here that someone is taking to long on those manifolds. Peopel that do good business always stay informed and in contact with there associates.I would of gotten into the business of welding the manifolds as well, but it is to expensive and competitive when competing with chinese manufacturers. For me to sell a manifold it would run almost $600. Thats the cost for one fabricated flange, 4 runners, 4 bosses, and for me to weld it with a plenum.Not including port match or TB porting.

As far as 93 octane it is more than streetable for a KA24de to make gains. JWT keeps ignition low and just allows enough fuel to be dumped to keep the car smogable, and SAFE, I believe is the term they use. No doubt the ignition MAPS on a JWT can be advanced and increased and more fuel would need to be added that wouldn't make the car smogable with an eprom tune. But 93octane can make more power with a few changes.One of the reasons why I stayed OBD1 is that it is easy to advance the distributor to my liking and change the fuel curve without a lot of serious hassle or eprom tuning (like willem or tuner pro). If you do have a JWT tune no need to change the maps just add more fuel with SAFC and advance the timing a bit, (I think you will be surprised).

As far as gasket/port matching it isn't practical for me, I am a bit more methodical on port and honing. As you can see in my thread I haven't used any gaskets yet. I try to calculate more because if people just always follow a gasket for there port there is the chance that they decrease velocity somewhere in the runners by increasing to much diameter from the gasket tracing.Enough chit chat from me, keep up the good work on the KA info (AJAX, and DJ) I do read what you guys have to say. AJAX if you did get F&%Ked sue big time.......

[zero_gripS13]

found your problem...

your information says ur running a 8:1 a/f ratio..

um should be about 12.5-13:1 (well atleast tuned on dyno with wideband..) i think u need some real tunning .. that engine could be making 180-190whp but with it being so rich its wasted...

just my .02

[Bigvinnie]

found your problem...

um should be about 12.5-13:1 (well atleast tuned on dyno with wideband..) i think u need some real tunning .. that engine could be making 180-190whp but with it being so rich its wasted...

just my .02

It should be more at 12.7:1~13.2:1I can't believe you could read those small numbers.

What if there was no data log using wideband, isn't 8.0 the bottom indicator for worst fuel richness??

[neverlift]

It should be more at 12.7:1~13.2:1I can't believe you could read those small numbers.

What if there was no data log using wideband, isn't 8.0 the bottom indicator for worst fuel richness??

IIRC yep.honestly if the dyno operator didnt notice that while on dyno he should be fired as well. IF thats your afr you have an issue be it ecu(not tuned) or a busted injector,maybe a maf. Your plugs are fuct maybe your rings too.

I dont think they were using w/b for some strange reason. I'm about to wideband my stock de(mostly),for a week or so just to see where we stand...

[Ajax]

IT does say 8- I wondered about that, but I couldn't remember what numbers I should have been looking for.At the time the dyno was done, it was kind of a rush job just to see what was going to the wheels right now.I'll have to schedule some dyno time at a local shop to see if we can figure this out.Thanks for pointing that out.

[neverlift]

well you should do it quick or not do any wot pulls cause your gonna washdown your shyt... ps dont use that dyno/shop again if they didnt notice this.

[DjPantsSpecR]

nah i noticed it was in the 8s. but the fact that it only fluctuates from 8.00 to 8.02 shows he didnt have the wideband hooked up.

If you were really running 8s at WOT, you could jsut throw some E85 in there and run the 100 octane timing maps....

****, thats getting close to Nitromethane A/Fs....

[matt4pl]

i've dealt a tad bit with automekanika, i was under the impression they were a pretty good shop. guess not... anyway, best of luck with getting things straightened out. 170 seems pretty low for a fully built motor. like people have been saying though, some tuning should net a bit more of power. i'm pretty sure you'll hit 200rwhp once its all done with.

[Ajax]

He's really good, if he's into your project- which is basically if you've got a Porsche, Audi, or a turbo.I can't say how many times he asked me "Why not just go SR?" If I had gone that route, this car would probably be putting down 400hp and have been done in 3 months...But he dropped the ball on this thing, and hopefully we can get this situation squared away by the end of this year.

[phoenixS14]

People need to not get to butt-hurt over the AFR numbers. Given that it fluctuates about 0.2 from beginning to end is a pretty good indicator that the sensor either doesn't work, or wasn't hooked up/installed at all. A lot of places won't install the sensor unless you pay extra, or perhaps it wasn't working so they didn't install it at all... big deal. Realize there's something funny, discard that data and move on.

Those are good numbers.. My KA did 162 with JWT cams, 2.5" exh, Hotshot header and intake. That was my first S14, a couple years ago.

The JWT ECU tune isn't good for a ton of power.. in the neighborhood of 2-4hp at the wheels. Here's the test of the JWT ECU on my current S14 w/KA24DE:



In addition, I've tested 2.5" vs. 3" exhausts on two KA24DEs now and had identical results: nothing. Well, in the 1-1.5hp range which isn't much. I'll try and dig up the dyno charts for that test as well.

I have a fully balanced, 10.5:1 KA24DE that doesn't make anymore power than a stock KA24DE. I'm not saying it's impossible to gain power, but it's definitely possible to "build" a motor and not get any gains... a crappy port-job can ruin things.

Bottom line, those BC cams must be pretty good.


Modified by phoenixS14 at 12:32 PM 5/29/2007

[Bigvinnie]

MEEHHHH. I've seen higher numbers on fewer mods to date.Correct that a JWT tune sucks balls, I can make that same power on an SAFC, and advanced timing on OBD1 engine, the key is the Octane rating. Secondly it is whether you own an OBD1 or OBD2 that will make the most significant power, OBD2 is just bound by to much horse crap emissions.You are right about porting because I have seen a stock head outflow velocity in lower RPM's than a ported one. Besides the stock head already outflows for the situation given, porting any larger is ridiculous, but minor honing is mandatory given the situation of the KAde head.One factor people over look is using the N60 MAF and reconfiguring using an SAFC using the 02 input and 06 output, with a 1-1 in/out on raised compression (for OBD1, it would be a (02-05 on OBD2). Super charging and turbo charging has proved that it shows gains, and it shows gains in high compression KA's as well since the sensor has more room for play in the scale than the stock MAF.

[Ajax]

Just thought I'd update people on the car.DJ and I replaced the head gasket and were hoping to get some pics and professional opinion/witness on the port job.The block was indeed overbored, however the pistons used create, in essence, the same compression. The intake side of the head still had casting marks, while the exhaust side was pretty sooty (pistons had a lot of carbon build-up too). If the head was ported, I don't think it was that good a job.Here's the plan now to get some more horsepower- I'm going to order an Xcessive Motorsports manifold. While the plenum size is currently setup for turbo, I think it looks like its decent quality work. So, I then keep the runners on, but get a custom plenum fabricated tuned better for NA; we should even be able to do a head to head dyno showing the benefits and downfalls.And should I ever feel the need for even more power, the larger plenum will be there to turbo this engine.What I've learned so far as I jumped into this project 2 1/2 years ago, and hopefully you can learn from my mistakes:Always get everything in writing if a shop is going to rebuild your engine- every detail. I "took his word for it" and am still dealing with issues.

If I were to rebuild again:Brian Crower Stroker with 10.5-11:1 CR in a refreshened blockAMS race head and custom manifold or ITBsInstall myself with DJ's help.real tuning on biki or some other system.Expensive, yes, but I think that setup would scrape the 200hp mark on pump gasObviously won't happen anytime soon, unless I score a movie deal (I should be in a fantasy movie called Midnight Chronicles-google it- if the scene didn't get cut), but that's what I'd do. I love this car.

[neverlift]

well hit the exhaust side with some carb cleaner... bet its stock ,bastards...

I still cannot grasp why a shop would do this to someone......

what pistons were used?/bore of the block?

honestly if your gonna fork out for the xcessive manifold just boost and be happy, you will.....................

[87nissanKC]

Hey Ajax its been about a month since your last update. Any changes?

Ive been following this story for awhile now.

[Ajax]

Nothing really happening. I've been pretty busy and am still trying to figure out what my next step is. I'm not sure if I've got enough info to prove this thing was half-assed- we all know it was, but how do I prove it?Anyway, I've got a Nismo FPR on the way since my stock one appears to be toast (at least that's what DJ thinks), but I'm too broke to get other things done with this right now.