Lexus rant. F*** Lexus.

[Jesda]

In my 31 years on this planet I've driven literally hundreds of cars, trucks, and SUVs from around the world. I review many of them at jesda.com. They have ranged anywhere from $110,000 to $400 to value, and I can say with confidence and certainty that this 2003 Lexus LS430 is the WORST CAR I HAVE EVER DRIVEN IN MY ENTIRE LIFE. The superbly skilled engineers at Lexus and Toyota do nothing by accident, and this LS430 is the blandest, dullest, numbest, most lifeless automobile I have ever have the disprivilege of driving.

All of the soul-sucking awfulness that this car exerts is fully intentional, meant to ease the paranoid concerns of the lifeless, soulless Olive Garden-eating dullards that buy them. Its only redeeming characteristic is the unexpected power and presentation of the base Pioneer sound system that it comes equipped with.

I would rather drive a 1983 Toyota Tercel (and bear in mind, I have driven one!) than spend another moment behind the wheel of this worthless, pointless appliance. This awful, awful car deserves to be torched or dunked in the river.


EXCEPTIONS: SC400, SC300, IS-F, LFA

[float_6969]

So was it the sensory numbing steering and ride that initiated this rant?

[Bubba1]

In my 31 years on this planet I've driven literally hundreds of cars, trucks, and SUVs from around the world. I review many of them at jesda.com. They have ranged anywhere from $110,000 to $400 to value, and I can say with confidence and certainty that this 2003 Lexus LS430 is the WORST CAR I HAVE EVER DRIVEN IN MY ENTIRE LIFE. The superbly skilled engineers at Lexus and Toyota do nothing by accident, and this LS430 is the blandest, dullest, numbest, most lifeless automobile I have ever have the disprivilege of driving.

All of the soul-sucking awfulness that this car exerts is fully intentional, meant to ease the paranoid concerns of the lifeless, soulless Olive Garden-eating dullards that buy them. Its only redeeming characteristic is the unexpected power and presentation of the base Pioneer sound system that it comes equipped with.

I would rather drive a 1983 Toyota Tercel (and bear in mind, I have driven one!) than spend another moment behind the wheel of this worthless, pointless appliance. This awful, awful car deserves to be torched or dunked in the river.


EXCEPTIONS: SC400, SC300, IS-F, LFA

So what other vehicle should these "souless Olive-Garden eating dullards" drive? Keeping in mind, these dullards typically view driving as a chore, and who prefer big, dull, boring, familiar, spongy riding Japanese sedans?

[Jesda]

So what other vehicle should these "souless Olive-Garden eating dullards" drive? Keeping in mind, these dullards typically view driving as a chore, and who prefer big, dull, boring, familiar, spongy riding Japanese sedans?

Exposing someone to great automobiles is like exposing them to great music, films, or other creative works. Someone in the know has to show them the light. Those who know better have to lead the way with their particular tastes and interests.

There is no such thing as "live and let live" when it comes to matters of taste. There may be varying opinions, but opinions have varying levels of validity. If someone thinks the BK Whopper is the end-all of culinary experiences, they need exposure to better styles of cuisine.

<- Not humble.

[gwoods]

ahh Lexus what anti enthusiasts drive.

My bro in law used to buy and export cars as a dealer. One year when we were visiting in Maryland the spare car was a 2001 LS430. We borrowed it and drove from Maryland to Virginia and back to see some of my family. It was a very comfortable very boring drive.

[Bubba1]

[

Exposing someone to great automobiles is like exposing them to great music, films, or other creative works. Someone in the know has to show them the light. Those who know better have to lead the way with their particular tastes and interests.

There is no such thing as "live and let live" when it comes to matters of taste. There may be varying opinions, but opinions have varying levels of validity. If someone thinks the BK Whopper is the end-all of culinary experiences, they need exposure to better styles of cuisine.

<- Not humble.

Of course there's "live and let live"when it comes to taste. It should not surprise you that many LS430 buyers have tested cars that you would find more acceptable, yet still purchased a LS430. Why? Because they found the LS430 fit what they wanted/needed better than what you think they should drive. (Shocking I know) .So why can't your Great Aunt Mildred drive her LS430 in peace?

[Jesda]

So why can't your Great Aunt Mildred drive her LS430 in peace?

Educate and enlighten! Unless someone is constrained by a budget, show them the light.

Even old folks can have fun if you show them how!

[Bubba1]

So why can't your Great Aunt Mildred drive her LS430 in peace?

Educate and enlighten! Unless someone is constrained by a budget, show them the light.

Even old folks can have fun if you show them how!

Since I don't care if your Great Aunt Mildred drives an LS430 and you do, I leave it in your capable hands to educate and enlighten her.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Exposing someone to great automobiles is like exposing them to great music, films, or other creative works. Someone in the know has to show them the light. Those who know better have to lead the way with their particular tastes and interests.

There is no such thing as "live and let live" when it comes to matters of taste. There may be varying opinions, but opinions have varying levels of validity. If someone thinks the BK Whopper is the end-all of culinary experiences, they need exposure to better styles of cuisine.

<- Not humble.

Absolutely. This is why test drives are so huge for Toyota and Lexus' competitors. Often when people finally get talked into trying something other than a Camry or ES, they are surprised to find that it does EVERYTHING their blandmobile did AND MORE, AND BETTER. The only reason Toyota and Lexus are so successful is because they've convinced their repeat owners that other brands aren't even worth considering.

My mom doesn't know a torquewrench from a headgasket, but she knows her Maxima is an infinitely superior car to her sister's Camry.

[Jesda]

Absolutely. This is why test drives are so huge for Toyota and Lexus' competitors. Often when people finally get talked into trying something other than a Camry or ES, they are surprised to find that it does EVERYTHING their blandmobile did AND MORE, AND BETTER. The only reason Toyota and Lexus are so successful is because they've convinced their repeat owners that other brands aren't even worth considering.

My mom doesn't know a torquewrench from a headgasket, but she knows her Maxima is an infinitely superior car to her sister's Camry.

When my older-than-the-moon aunt went shopping for something to replace her Dodge Neon, I started looking at the Corolla. The Toyota salesman insisted that we'd be back after looking at other cars. Unfortunately for him, the Mazda 3, Honda Civic, Hyundai Elantra, and Subaru Impreza all looked and drove better and came with more features and options. She ended up with the Impreza wagon even though it cost thousands more because it was much nicer inside and offered excellent visibility, not to mention AWD.

I know Toyota is making money hand over fist worldwide on that old Corolla, but its time to catch up.

[Jesda]

Since I don't care if your Great Aunt Mildred drives an LS430 and you do, I leave it in your capable hands to educate and enlighten her.

My stepdad is the most loyal Lexus owner on the planet. He's owned nothing but Lexus LX sport utilities since the 90s but after the new LX450 arrived he decided he was done with the brand. The new look is hideous and the interior is a mess. So, he's keeping his LX470 until it's dead with 390k so far.

After he finally retires it (possibly never?) he's considering an Escalade or a QX56 like my mom's. She didn't care for her glitchy GX470 and dumped it for an Infiniti in late 2011.

[Bubba1]

so are you suggesting that brand loyalty, which is typically based on good previous ownership experiences, should be ignored? Or does it just not apply to Toyota/Lexus because you personally don't like them?

[Jesda]

So are you suggesting that brand loyalty, which is typically based on good previous ownership experiences, should be ignored? Or does it just not apply to Toyota/Lexus because you personally don't like them?

Setting aside my own preferences and looking at it from a purely practical point of view, brand loyalty is how you get suckered when they churn out a turd.

[Bubba1]

Setting aside my own preferences and looking at it from a purely practical point of view, brand loyalty is how you get suckered when they churn out a turd.

Of course, but brand loyalty is earned thru good experiences. It also tends to end when the last ownership experience is bad. This is the problem Toyota haters have. Toyota/Lexus may be mostly dull and boring but as long as buyers keep having good ownership experiences with them, they'll continue to sell well.

[ScrapMetal]

Lots of Lexus hate here. Did we forget that Infiniti and Acura are still playing catch up to Lexus? The Lexus LS is marketed to people who are looking for a large comfortable sedan. Surprising as it is, not everyone wants a tight cornering, stiff sprung "fun car" especially older folk who suffer from joint and back problems. I've driven two LS sedans that I borrowed from family members for long trips, a 400 and on another occasion a 430. Both cars were incredible, the attention to detail, the silky smooth V8 and transmission, the soft comfortable interior with loads of room and the ride on the highway was never tiresome, you wanted to keep driving. I'm 26 and would buy one in a heartbeat if I could afford one. Not all cars have to be "fun machines" to deserve appreciation.

[Ace2cool]

Lol, my 72 year old Grandmama with severe arthritis drives a Mercedes-Benz C230 Sport sedan. She loves every minute of the stiff handling, tight steering, and stiff modular pedals.

[Jesda]

Of course, but brand loyalty is earned thru good experiences. It also tends to end when the last ownership experience is bad. This is the problem Toyota haters have. Toyota/Lexus may be mostly dull and boring but as long as buyers keep having good ownership experiences with them, they'll continue to sell well.

Think back to 1986. The poor old sap who "buys a new Cadillac every 3 years because that's what I do" and earned himself a pile of Heritage of Ownership badges got stuck with downsized turds, the awful HT4100 V8, and shoddy build quality.

Loyalty is for lazy people. My allegiance is to good design and engineering.

[gwoods]

Ditto which is why I almost never own the same brand. My wife values reliability we are looking for our 5th Toyota in 11 years... At least it will be a 2012 Sequoia with a 5.7. I am trying to lead her to the Mercedes GL but it only seats 7 :-(

[Jesda]

Lots of Lexus hate here. Did we forget that Infiniti and Acura are still playing catch up to Lexus? The Lexus LS is marketed to people who are looking for a large comfortable sedan. Surprising as it is, not everyone wants a tight cornering, stiff sprung "fun car" especially older folk who suffer from joint and back problems. I've driven two LS sedans that I borrowed from family members for long trips, a 400 and on another occasion a 430. Both cars were incredible, the attention to detail, the silky smooth V8 and transmission, the soft comfortable interior with loads of room and the ride on the highway was never tiresome, you wanted to keep driving. I'm 26 and would buy one in a heartbeat if I could afford one. Not all cars have to be "fun machines" to deserve appreciation.

20+ years ago you had to choose between luxury and sport. Now you can have your cake and eat it too as more sophisticated younger buyers have higher expectations for technology, comfort, and driving enjoyment. Compromise is not a luxury.

Lexus was a revelation in the 90s, offering the traditional Lincoln/Cadillac buyer a higher quality version of old-fashioned motoring. Those customers took Lexus to #1 in 2000. Now, however, they're dying off (literally, due to old age) and BMW and MB are now neck and neck for the top spot thanks to the 3-series and C-class.

Cadillac saw the writing on the wall and introduced the hot new ATS this year and introduced the CTS in late 2002. Ads for the new Lexus LS460 depict young drivers and emphasize sport -- so even Lexus is getting a clue. Young up and comers with growing wealth don't want to settle for their parents' landbarges. Sure, there's a pleasing kind of ease with that kind of motoring and from a historical aspect I can certainly appreciate it. I've spent the last few weeks loving and adoring a black 1977 Coupe Deville in outstanding condition that has absolutely no pretensions of sportiness, designed to do nothing but cruise softly in a straight line. In the context of the past, when technology was limited, I appreciated and understood its role in American motoring.

But for 2003, the LS430 was lacking, stuck in the past and competing more closely with Lincoln than Mercedes and BMW. Lexus knew this as it watched its market share slip.

The old LS400 was a nice car for what it sought out to be; I even owned one! The LS430, however, is a step back in almost every way compared to its predecessor, not only in terms of driving enjoyment but also with regards to comfort, interior materials, and paint quality. The 400 had a superior Nakamichi sound system, more leather surfaces, more value for money, spring-supported seats, world-class paint work, tighter panel gaps, and better fuel efficiency (if you got the later 5-speed). The 430's only advantage is head room.

[Bubba1]

20+ years ago you had to choose between luxury and sport. Now you can have your cake and eat it too as more sophisticated younger buyers have higher expectations for technology, comfort, and driving enjoyment. Compromise is not a luxury.

Jesda, I agree with most of what you say, except for the 800 lb gorilla in the room you ignore. And that is, not everyone wants their cake and eat it too. Since the average age of a new large Lexus buyer is in their mid 60's, they don't necessarily want the same things a 31 yr old Jesda wants (or expects) in their new cars. you're an enthusiast, my friend. I am too. Problem is we enthusiasts are not the majority of the NEW car buying public. That's the way it is. That's why your hated Camry sells so well.

With the LS430 and now LS460, Lexus has clearly targeted the geritol taking, bionic hip owning, cane carrying early-bird special going, AARP carded, Consumer Report subscribing, elderly market, which is clearly in decline. But they've also positioned themselves to step into the void left by the departure of the big, spongy, anachronistic Lincoln Town Car. Yes, Cadillac is changing it's focus toward younger buyers which is a prudent thing, but that doesn't mean Lexus must do the same with every model. They can build whatever they want, and we are not their target demographic.

[Jesda]

Jesda, I agree with most of what you say, except for the 800 lb gorilla in the room you ignore. And that is, not everyone wants their cake and eat it too.

Right, but who cares? Their wants are based on needs that are outdated and outmoded. "Wants" are worthless if they're based on limited knowledge, experience, and information.


Some people actually believe the McRib really is, in a non-ironic way, the greatest sandwich ever made. It doesn't mean you shouldn't expose them to better. People look to enthusiasts like you and me for advice, not only with regards to quality and value but also drivability and feature content. With the dozens of different cars we regularly drive, we're uniquely qualified to elevate the average buyer and pull them out of their comfort zones.

Your role in the marketplace is that of an expert. We make up 20% of the automotive public but influence the majority of purchases.


A consumer has the right to settle for less. It doesn't mean they should.


You're basically looking for reasons to explain away The Lund Family, and while they can be explained, it doesn't make them right.

Thankfully, even stodgy Toyota (remember when we used to say this about GM?) is waking up to a changing market and has released a slow but consistent stream of fun to drive cars for the masses including the FR-S and TC. Ads for the LS460 now emphasize sport and feature well-dressed 30-somethings in slim-fitting tailored suits in an attempt at shoring up Lexus's declining market share as brand managers worry legitimately about reaching Lincoln's level of near-extinction.

[frapjap]

With the LS430 and now LS460, Lexus has clearly targeted the geritol taking, bionic hip owning, cane carrying early-bird special going, AARP carded, Consumer Report subscribing, elderly market, which is clearly in decline. But they've also positioned themselves to step into the void left by the departure of the big, spongy, anachronistic Lincoln Town Car. Yes, Cadillac is changing it's focus toward younger buyers which is a prudent thing, but that doesn't mean Lexus must do the same with every model. They can build whatever they want, and we are not their target demographic.

My grandfather is approaching (maybe already in) his 80's and he owns a Buick. He has always owned a Buick. Would only own a Buick. And will continue to purchase beige interior, cloth seats, minimal luxury Buicks.
It was much to my surprise that he bought a new Turbo Regal. I don't think he knows it is a turbo car, but then again he might. Its probably the very last car he will own so he may have finally decided to treat himself.

Anyway, not sure why I wrote that. Probably something to do with brand loyalty, and even though the evolution of Buick to a younger 30-something crowd is evident, he still bought a Buick.

(I wonder how many Buick ads will show up on my view of the forum now...

[Jesda]

The 2013 LS460 Sport:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4ZAV4rBiAE[/youtube]

They've scrambled to liven up the 460 in a very short period of time. It just might work, but without driving one myself I can't be sure if its a genuine sport sedan or just a Town Car with a firmer ride.

[Jesda]

It was much to my surprise that he bought a new Turbo Regal. I don't think he knows it is a turbo car, but then again he might. Its probably the very last car he will own so he may have finally decided to treat himself.

Anyway, not sure why I wrote that. Probably something to do with brand loyalty, and even though the evolution of Buick to a younger 30-something crowd is evident, he still bought a Buick.

(I wonder how many Buick ads will show up on my view of the forum now...

I kind of dig what Buick is doing. They're sprucing up their lineup while trying to retain the demographic they appealed to in the 90s (white, suburban, affluent).
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y5SySqMlSQ[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHINoxDTvCU[/youtube]
So far, the Enclave is the only Buick I'm aware of that's fully achieved its intended purpose of winning over young, stylish parents.


A much more sophisticated approach than:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKRiCsZfx4k[/youtube]

[Bubba1]

Jesda, I agree with most of what you say, except for the 800 lb gorilla in the room you ignore. And that is, not everyone wants their cake and eat it too.

Right, but who cares? Their wants are based on needs that are outdated and outmoded. "Wants" are worthless if they're based on limited knowledge, experience, and information.


Some people actually believe the McRib really is, in a non-ironic way, the greatest sandwich ever made. It doesn't mean you shouldn't expose them to better. People look to enthusiasts like you and me for advice, not only with regards to quality and value but also drivability and feature content. With the dozens of different cars we regularly drive, we're uniquely qualified to elevate the average buyer and pull them out of their comfort zones.

Your role in the marketplace is that of an expert. We make up 20% of the automotive public but influence the majority of purchases.


A consumer has the right to settle for less. It doesn't mean they should.


You're basically looking for reasons to explain away The Lund Family, and while they can be explained, it doesn't make them right.

.

This is where we disagree. You think the Lund family is making a mistake buying Camry's. I don't. My view is if they're happy with their choices, let them be happy and enjoy it. Are there better cars out there? Sure. And if they were to ask for recommendations, I'd suggest a few to them. But at the end of the day, it's their choice, not yours, not mine.

[Rex]

Jesda - you should check out some Audi/Bimmer forums, talk about paying for fun by accepting a cars pitfalls, they leave & breathe that concept.

My wife values reliability we are looking for our 5th Toyota in 11 years...

This comment struck me in an odd way. I completely understand the concept of not having to take the car in for repairs during your 2-3 years of ownership, but doesn't it beg the question why focus on "reliability" when you really only need it to be reliable for 2-3 years??

Maybe I'm off in semantics world, but the statement almost seems oxymoron-like - "reliability ... 5th Toyota in 11 years".

Ultimately, happy wife = happy life, so let her keep getting those 'yotas.

[Jesda]

This is where we disagree. You think the Lund family is making a mistake buying Camry's. I don't. My view is if they're happy with their choices, let them be happy and enjoy it. Are there better cars out there? Sure. And if they were to ask for recommendations, I'd suggest a few to them. But at the end of the day, it's their choice, not yours, not mine.

If you knew the Lunds personally (we all know a similar family), you'd have an obligation to minimally expose them to what's out there. It isn't just for your sake and your notion of what's best, it's for theirs. When you show people something better whether its film, food, music, fashion, or anything else lifestyle related, they thank and appreciate you for enhancing their well-being.

[Bubba1]

This is where we disagree. You think the Lund family is making a mistake buying Camry's. I don't. My view is if they're happy with their choices, let them be happy and enjoy it. Are there better cars out there? Sure. And if they were to ask for recommendations, I'd suggest a few to them. But at the end of the day, it's their choice, not yours, not mine.

If you knew the Lunds personally (we all know a similar family), you'd have an obligation to minimally expose them to what's out there. It isn't just for your sake and your notion of what's best, it's for theirs. When you show people something better whether its film, food, music, fashion, or anything else lifestyle related, they thank and appreciate you for enhancing their well-being.

You or I are certainly welcome show/offer/suggest anything we consider better to people, but ultimately, it's still their decision what to buy for themselves. I think it's wrong to chastise them for disagreeing with you. Keep in mind, Toyota/Lexi are not "unsafe at any speed death traps", they're simply cars that are not attractive to enthusiasts.

[Jesda]

You or I are certainly welcome show/offer/suggest anything we consider better to people, but ultimately, it's still their decision what to buy for themselves. I think it's wrong to chastise them for disagreeing with you.

That's not really the point, nor is it necessary to chastise them.

If you're an expert, they'll respect your point of view. That's why so many consumer decisions are based on word of mouth. When people buy computers, they trust their "tech friend" more than the blue shirts at Best Buy. When they buy cars, they trust their buddy who teaches performance driving more than the high-pressure salesman at their Volkswagen dealer.

I've played an active role in the purchases of a lot of very happy people, people who may have otherwise followed their nose to mediocre, default mass-market choices: a used Cavalier or a brand new Corolla.

[Bubba1]

You or I are certainly welcome show/offer/suggest anything we consider better to people, but ultimately, it's still their decision what to buy for themselves. I think it's wrong to chastise them for disagreeing with you.

That's not really the point, nor is it necessary to chastise them.

If you're an expert, they'll respect your point of view. That's why so many consumer decisions are based on word of mouth. When people buy computers, they trust their "tech friend" more than the blue shirts at Best Buy. When they buy cars, they trust their buddy who teaches performance driving more than the high-pressure salesman at their Volkswagen dealer.

I've played an active role in the purchases of a lot of very happy people, people who may have otherwise followed their nose to mediocre, default mass-market choices: a used Cavalier or a brand new Corolla.

You certainly have the knowledge, charm (and pants) to influence those who are receptive, but not everyone is going to be receptive and will still make their own decisions. For example, I don't think you could convince the Lund family to stop buying Camries.