Let's talk about the new Cadillac CT6 and why it's a big deal.

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THIS:
Image
is a really pretty car.

It's very nicely proportioned, with a cab sat far rearward on the wheelbase but still scooping out space for a real rear deck (no idiot "coupelike" pretense here, it's a real, grown-up sedan). The dash-to-axle ratio is surprisingly long. The roofline is clean and sharp. The "teardrops" below the headlights are a little odd, but don't do a lot of harm on the whole. Visually, it is strikingly long, low, and wide in a proper big-sedan kind of way (something that the CTS, despite its excellence, never really managed, because it's most definitely NOT a big sedan).

But the styling (despite being exactly what Cadillac needs) is not the most important thing.

The important thing is what this car means for Cadillac.

It means Cadillac is REALLY back in the game. The CTS might have been critically transformational for the brand, but it couldn't raise the ceiling. It sold a lot, converted opinions, and carved a foothold, but you can't sell a luxury brand without a big sedan.

The CT6 is being labelled in articles as Caddy's new halo car, but it's not. That'll be the CT8. But the CT6 is topping the lineup for now, and being compared to the 7 series and S-class (despite being, like the CTS and STS before it, a bit smaller than those German counterparts).

What matters, then? That this is an architectural stepping stone to a Cadillac that actually matters at the TOP end, not just the volume (bottom) end, and in multiple ways.

Firstly, it's based on an all-new but Alpha-inspired lightweight full-size platform (called Omega, and to be shared with the CT8).
Secondly, it brings two new hugely-relevant engines that Cadillac can NOT more forward without.

The CT6 has an interesting engine linup. It's a tad smaller and a lot lighter than a 7 series, but the base engine is a four-banger. The turbo four model supposedly weighs a little over 3600lb, which means its power:weight is a little crummier than my LS8, but not by a ton.
Sitting in the middle of the engine options is the GM-standard, normally-aspirated 3.6 liter High Feature V6 offering. A fantastic engine, but nothing groundbreaking.

What's exciting, though, are the car's two new engines (again, likely to be shared with the CT8).

The first is a TT 3.0 V6. It's based on an updated high-feature V6 architecture, so it's still closely related to the current 3.6. It's rated at 400hp. It'll be the top-tier engine in the CT6 for a bit. Cadillac says there will be a 3.6 liter version of this engine as well, but no word on whether it'll make it into the CT6. The 3.0 makes a lot of sense given the car's weight.

The engine that will follow later and top off the range down the road will be an all-new, high-tech DOHC TT V8 displacing 4.2 liters. 4.2 is interesting because it's actually quite big by modern standards (nearly everyone else is working with 3.8-4.0 liters for V8s at this point--except for Jaguar who are still using the big 5.0 AJ). Cadillac claims it'll make "high 400 range" horsepower, but that sounds extremely conservative to me. However--and this is the important part--this engine isn't being touted as the new V-series ultraperformance powerplant. It's being used for the one thing V8s do that no amount of boost or performance in other formats can match: refinement. The new V8 is being designed to allow Cadillac to sell a car that appeals to people who actually know what a real car should be. This is a huge change. The ATS has brash 4-bangers as its base engines that are defended as light-but-potent while overlooking their behavioral issues. It's a way to sell cars to less discerning entry-level buyers who couldn't tell a 4-cylinder Camry from a Maserati at idle.

The CT6 is for people like me. People to whom the thrumming herk and jerk of even a modern V6 at idle is offensive. People who want an engine that scales usably from idle at ~600rpm all the way up to 7000+rpm without a hiccup. People who require their luxury cars to actually deliver refinement, not merely look "upscale" and come with fancy leather.

This TT V8 is going to be a big deal for GM as a whole, but especially for Cadillac. You can't sell a car the size or the CT6 (or bigger--CT8) without a V8 option. And, as Acura and Lincoln continue to prove, no amount of teching around bad architecture (wrong wheel drive and V6-only) will actually earn you any buyers in that market.
Imagine what other cars GM could work this engine into. Future SS models? Maybe a Zora Corvette? The SBC is a hell of a motor, but this new option opens a ton of new doors.

But, all this stuff accounted for, the most important thing about the CT6 is that IT IS NOT THIS UNFORGIVABLE MONSTROSITY:
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The XTS was the wrong answer to the wrong question at the wrong time and did absolutely nothing positive for Cadillac. It was a no-alternative placeholder for a brand without a fullsize car. It was lazy, cheap, unattractive, and had none of the attributes Cadillac needs to improve its reputation as a gobal brand. Cadillac themselves defended it as a temporary stopgap on the way to a real car.
With the CT6, Cadillac can throw the XTS in the dumpster where it belongs and start selling real cars that aren't three steps backward from where they so carefully climbed with the CTS and ATS. If I were Johan DeNysschen (which I know we've firmly established I most definitely am not), I would cease XTS production last month, crush every unit still on lots, cancel all marketing for the car, and offer a hefty bonus to every employee who swears to never speak of it again.

The ATS is neat. The CTS is a great car. The CT6 is the Cadillac I've been waiting for for over a decade. It's about time it got here. And it's not some dumbass naming scheme or a hilariously meaningless move of the corporate headquarters to New York City that's going to take Cadillac to the next level. It's building a car people who buy luxury cars actually want to own. The CT6 is the first Cadillac to meet that criterion since probably the DeVille of the mid-90s, when the luxury market was a very different place.


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Are you going to buy one?

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PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:Are you going to buy one?
I generally don't buy new cars, but I can certainly see myself snagging a used V8 in 5 years or so after someone else has eaten the depreciation for me.

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After a lot of negative feedback from the XTS concept Cadillac promised to stretch the wheelbase to keep it from looking so awkward. Instead they said, "f*** it" and farted out whatever they had.

Part of it was due to bankruptcy. The other part was due to the XTS's status as a placeholder. They likely saw little reason to put their best effort into a car with a built-in expiration date. Even the name has no connection or meaning to anything.

CT6 is the kind of car that quietly grows on you. You have to see it in the flesh and walk around it to absorb its wonderful classic proportions and subtlety. It doesn't shout the way I think a Cadillac should but it has the kind of understated confidence that defined the brand in the 1940s. That's a good start for a move upscale.

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Interesting fact: They considered calling this car the DT7.

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I wonder if GM proposed DT to stand for "Depends Transport" or "Delirium Tremens" (as in alcohol withdrawl symptoms)? :)

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I've never had any interest in big sedan's, but this could change this for me. Aesthetically, it's all there. If the V8 comes to fruition, I could see my self owning a used one down the road. (Right now, the idea of my 3 year old spilling her juice in the back seat seems like a travesty, so we're not moving away from our cheap Protégé for a while).

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Bubba1 wrote:"Delirium Tremens" (as in alcohol withdrawl symptoms)? :)
Mmmmmmm, Delirium.
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Jesda wrote:Interesting fact: They considered calling this car the DT7.
That's interesting. I assume it was as a vague extension of the DeVille nomenclature. I think I might actually have liked that more, simply because it would have kept the brand's naming structure from being quite so homogenous. Has kind of a nice alliterative ring to it, at least as far as meaningless alphanumeric non-names go.

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From what I have read and seen, the CT6 is possibly an indication that GM and Cadillac specifically is finally serious about producing a car worthy to compete with other top line luxury sedans in Europe and the US. The first thing that struck me was the innovative use of new materials in the chassis that makes the chassis stronger, quieter, and yet lighter than ever before. The second surprise was the use of higher quality of materials used for the interior. They finally got rid of the cheap plastics that reminded me of a tic-tac container. Here is a Cadillac that is closer to the BMW 7 series in luxury and ride, yet weighs less than a 5 series. Pricing is slightly higher than a fully equipped Q70 L, but with features not even available on the Q70. I don't recommend buying the first model year of any vehicle, but a used CT6 could easily be a contender for a future purchase as a CPO. This could make Cadillac a worthy competitor in the UK and elsewhere as Europe is pickiy about which cars they allow to be sold there. Here is a video of the CTS when GM tried, and failed, to get it sold in the UK.
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https://youtu.be/ik8bM6prQjA
.

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I learned something interesting today:

The only way you'll be able to get a CT6 without AWD is to get a base-model 4-banger.

Yet another automaker taking the idiot route and assuming I'm afraid of everything.

It's entirely fine to offer the OPTION of AWD. But making it mandatory is asinine.

I have never, and will never, EVER EVER EVER in the whole of eternity want AWD. When did 2wd CARS become obsolete??????? What's the drive to suddenly make everything needlessly more complicated with negligible benefit for most buyers? What about dry climate buyers? What about those of us who actually know how to drive? What if I don't want to worry about the front CV axles failing because they shouldn't EFFING BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!?!?!!?

So damn stupid it makes my head hurt.

Way to fail Cadillac. This car went from top of my list to not even on the list in one bad marketing decision.

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Audi has long displayed the virtues of awd for decades, so it should be no surprise that other upscale marques have been embracing it. Luxury vehicle buyers are not as concerned about the gas mileage penalty or the added complexity. I personally don't mind awd, as it's simply a different configuration. And for street use only, I don't see drivetrain configuration as much of a concern as it might be for a track toy or sports car.

I'm not really sold yet with the new CTS. I see the styling as more evolutionary than revolutionary, and the front end is looks challenged, alright, ugly. But I'll withhold judgement until after I actually drive one. As far as competing with the 7 series. I don't think so. I see the CTS as more of a "tweener car", as it's priced above the larger fords and Chryslers and significantly less than the 7 series. while that can be a good thing, it also translates to lagging behind the Germans in fit/finish, refinement, and especially reliability. I'm glad to see GM investing money in Caddy to improve handling and weight reduction , but they really need to address the 800 lb gorilla in the room, which is their below average overall reliability. In fact, only Fiat/Chrysler, Mitsubishi, and Land Rover currently rank worse than Cadillac for reliability. Call me crazy, but if I'm gonna drop $60K on a new CTS, I expect it to be reasonably reliable. Based on what I've read, I don't think Cadillac's quite there... yet with their new CTS.

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I am a huge fan of the ATS-V sedan, myself.

If Infiniti gets a wild hair on their a** and tosses a manual transmission into the red sport Q50 or Q60, I'll be buying one of those for my next ride, but if not, I will at least test drive the Caddy... and I'll likely end up there.

That's a huge step for me considering I largely dislike general motors. The new Camaro, Vette, and ATS-V have my attention, though.

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Am I the only one who sees this as looking way too much like a 2002 Altima?

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Yea, I think it's just you, LOL! I

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RicerX wrote:I am a huge fan of the ATS-V sedan, myself.

If Infiniti gets a wild hair on their a** and tosses a manual transmission into the red sport Q50 or Q60, I'll be buying one of those for my next ride, but if not, I will at least test drive the Caddy... and I'll likely end up there.

That's a huge step for me considering I largely dislike general motors. The new Camaro, Vette, and ATS-V have my attention, though.
I like the ATS in concept but I just can't do sedans that small.

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I've always been curious why you like such big cars.
Personally, I go for the smallest thing I can, while still being somewhat practical. I never haul more than 1 other person around except once every ~3 years when my parents come visit.

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MinisterofDOOM wrote:
RicerX wrote:I am a huge fan of the ATS-V sedan, myself.

If Infiniti gets a wild hair on their a** and tosses a manual transmission into the red sport Q50 or Q60, I'll be buying one of those for my next ride, but if not, I will at least test drive the Caddy... and I'll likely end up there.

That's a huge step for me considering I largely dislike general motors. The new Camaro, Vette, and ATS-V have my attention, though.
I like the ATS in concept but I just can't do sedans that small.
Yeah - to each his own there. I hate big cars unless it's an offroad tank like a Patrol, Land Cruiser, or that kind of thing. As far as cars go, I daily drove a Z for a few years and going to my Q50 was pure culture shock. My largest vehicle ever before that was my Sentra Spec V. My Q50 is the largest sedan I'll ever have.

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I love big cars and small cars. I don't like anything in between.

I want to either enjoy easy parking and light weight or dominate the earth below me.

Nice thing about the CT6 is that it weighs less than the much smaller E-class but has dimensions similar to a SWB 7-series. You gain everything, lose nothing, all thanks to brilliant chassis engineering. It's amazing what GM can achieve when the engineers and designers are given priority over cost-cutting program managers.

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Jesda wrote:. It's amazing what GM can achieve when the engineers and designers are given priority over cost-cutting program managers.
Are you sure about that? Good engineering/design and cost cutting are not mutually exclusive. That could help explain why their current reliability is below average

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Bubba1 wrote: Are you sure about that? Good engineering/design and cost cutting are not mutually exclusive. That could help explain why their current reliability is below average
You're stuck in the 80s. I'm sending you taller shoulder pads.

If reliability is all that matters in the luxury segment, by all means, take your Lexus ES to Walgreens to pick up your Cialis prescription. You have to take risks and push the envelope to move forward. You can't just build leather-lined Camrys and Corollas and call it good.

If you can't acknowledge the brilliance of this chassis then your car guy cred is hot garbage.

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Last edited by Jesda on Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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This is Joel
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This is a truck dropping off some Joel

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:)

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This is a band named after Joel
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I don't think I've ever had so much fun telling a person with dated preconceptions that they were wrong.

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Joking aside...



As a measure of luxury, reliability is a very low priority. Why? Because aside from Fiat, some VW Group products, and Land Rover, few modern cars will actually leave you stranded. What remains are quirks and flaws attributed to newly introduced features and technologies. Even the S-class has evolved into a dependable car as my business partner confirmed after years of owning W221s long term (and later, a W222). What a change from the W220 which was indeed a very, very poorly engineered car.

The idea of reliability being a selling point in the premium car market is meaningless as manufacturers, including the Koreans, have mostly closed the gap.

You don't pay a premium for reliability -- you can get that from a Ford Focus. You pay a premium for cutting edge design, engineering, and technology. You don't understand the luxury market.

This is why Lexus abandoned reliability as a selling point and rightfully pursued design (however controversial it may be) and performance. After becoming America's #1 luxury brand in 1999 it recently began losing its place in the market to MB, Audi, and BMW. They caught up to Lexus's development and manufacturing processes -and- continued to offer design, technology, and emotion -- the latter of which Lexus could never figure out.

Even in the exclusive context of reliability and quality, the LS430 and LS460 never lived up to the LS400.



If you want reliability, put your smart phone in the trash and get yourself a copper land line from AT&T and a Western Electric rotary dial phone. Simple things last longer. Simple things fail to move the world forward.

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Jesda wrote:Joking aside...



As a measure of luxury, reliability is a very low priority. Why? Because aside from Fiat, some VW Group products, and Land Rover, few modern cars will actually leave you stranded. What remains are quirks and flaws attributed to newly introduced features and technologies. Even the S-class has evolved into a dependable car as my business partner confirmed after years of owning W221s long term (and later, a W222). What a change from the W220 which was indeed a very, very poorly engineered car.

The idea of reliability being a selling point in the premium car market is meaningless as manufacturers, including the Koreans, have mostly closed the gap.

You don't pay a premium for reliability -- you can get that from a Ford Focus. You pay a premium for cutting edge design, engineering, and technology. You don't understand the luxury market.
I disagree, the vast majority of today's vehicles aren't designed to last for a very long time.

A Ford Focus and reliability does not go in the same sentence. Heck, customers have a hard time finding parts from Ford dealers due to them discontinuing them after a short run.

A luxury must be reliable in addition of top of the line engineering and technology. Any manufacturer can cram the latest gadgets in any car and call it "luxury" with that definition.

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asoomal wrote:
I disagree, the vast majority of today's vehicles aren't designed to last for a very long time.
The luxury buyer isn't adversely affected by defects the way a lower-end buyer is. Why? Because being left on the side of the road in a used Versa means you lose your job, lose your home, lose your life. Being inconvenienced by a defective late model Audi A8, for example, (as annoying as it may be) isn't the end of the world. You have a cushion to fall on; your presumed level of professional importance means you have wiggle room in case you need a tow to the dealer. You're also likely to be salaried so the opportunity cost isn't as severe.

The priorities at the higher end of the market are very, very different. It's how Land Rover can sell so many awful SUVs while continuing to rise in prestige and credibility. It's how MB got away with a decade-long slump in quality. There are other values associated with luxury cars.



As for the reliability of modern cars, defect rates are lower, major issues are fewer, and there's a narrower quality gap between manufacturers. Check out Truedelta or JDP and look at reported defects per unit over three years.


http://blog.caranddriver.com/really-lon ... -per-year/

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Oh, I understand the luxury car market pretty well. It might be you that doesn't fully appreciate that there are different types of buyers than you in the overall car market. It might shock you that I am not the only one that views reliability as important as cutting edge technology in a vehicle purchase. I also recognize there are people that do not consider reliability important when buying a vehicle, and that applies to any type of vehicle, not just luxury. You evidently fall into the latter group that places more importance on cutting edge technological design and performance than reliability. Nothing right or wrong about that, just different. I could not care less if someone like you buys a Cadillac, for any reason at all, but don't expect any sympathy from people like me when you vent your frustrations when your "technologically advanced" 1st model year cadillac is in the shop too often.

Lastly, I wonder if you considered that one of the main reasons many luxury car companies no longer use reliability as a selling point is because they are unable to do so, and not because it's old fashioned or not because they choose not to do it? Another perspective:if you are a car maker ranked near the bottom of the industry for reliability (like Cadillac right now), you're not going to promote reliability. Perhaps you promote something else like, oh, cutting edge design or performance? ;) If Cadillac somehow miraculously led the industry in reliability, you think they wouldn't promote the hell out of that?


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