I truly understand what the "movement" is all about. However, I can't seem to get behind something that causes so much controversy. Perhaps it's because I'm a military brat and I know the sacrifices made to protect that flag are great enough to warrant respect for it by standing to honor it. By the very freedom provided living under the flag, you are able to speak freely. Although, lawfully you are not required to stand for it, kneeling to me is an action and therefore not speech at all. I think this is where people get confused. Especially us conservatives and republicans. We get so 'MERICA we forget what's true and real. lol.

I think the Dallas Cowboys were a lot closer to a right way to do it. Players, coaches and owner taking a very visible knee together, then standing for the Star Spangled Banner.There is room for both protest and respect. I do believe, however, that the protest during the national anthem was necessary to attract enough attention to get it to this point.

That's exactly what I was thinking in regards to the cowboys. I'm a cowboys fan and I had to respect the way they presented it. They bridged a gap I believe the remaining teams can follow in example. In a team kind of way, whatever your teammate next to you is passionate about, you should also take interest in. Enough interest that kneeling before the anthem as a team in a multi-race sport, can and will show not only unity in the cause, but a respect for the country and it's people from both sides as well.

On the other hand, I was absolutely disgusted with OBJ throwing up the "Black Power" fist after his 2nd touchdown. I know there's other players that do that and I'm equally disgusted, but how are you supposed to play both sides of the fence? They preach equality and peace, but display a symbol of a prior aggressive "organisation". I think that should be as frowned apon as if Tom Brady were to display the Nazi salute after his touchdown passes. People would go nuts!

^ Truth.

I think the challenge many people are having with this issue is complex. Here's my take (if anyone cares):

Let's go back to the beginning: A multi-millionaire, half-Black athlete who was raised by wealthy White parents, went to a high-end college for free, wearing a Che Guevara shirt, employed by an entity that employs 75%+ minorities, is going to have a hard time convincing anyone in middle America that he's somehow experienced any sort of racial injustice. Sorry Kap, not buying it (even though it may exist).

Secondly, fighting for a cause is certainly admirable. But the 'cause' hasn't been clearly defined. What type of injustice are we talking about? If we're discussing police brutality against Blacks occurring statistically more than for Whites, that's a thing. Say so - but put a face on it. If we're talking about profiling, then say so - but address it at its source, the local departmental level. If we're talking about inadequate opportunities or disparate hiring practices, then address those using the tools that are already in place. Get in a courtroom and win.

Third, know what you're talking about when you refer to the First Amendment. Certainly, it's one of the rights that really makes America truly great... but it doesn't mean what most people think it means. It simply protects your speech from intervention BY THE GOVERNMENT. It allows you to criticize elected officials, without fear of reprisal. "Freedom of Speech" certainly isn't absolute - that would be absurd ("fire!" in a crowded theater, for example). And it doesn't mean freedom from consequence. If you walk into work and say, "Hey Boss, today's a good day for you to KISS MY A$$," you can whine all day about your rights, while standing in an unemployment line.

Fourth, and I'm admittedly a touch ignorant on this, but the NFL has policies that cover the Anthem. However, the Collective Bargaining Agreement (Players' Union) doesn't require standing for the Anthem in its contract. The team owners can certainly sanction players for acting out, the same as they can bench (or release) a player for off-field shenanigans or poor performance. So, the requirement is unclear.

Lastly, I'm not a fan of "bandwagon" causes. I can't be Black. I can't think or feel what a Black American does. And even though my roots are in the Deep South, and I have a great grasp (and love) of Black culture, I can't claim to understand what it means to be oppressed. As such, I'm not protesting. Period. To do so, in my eyes, cheapens the message and sends the signal that I don't think Black America is capable of handling or remedying their situation. I know better.

I'll admit, my position on this topic has changed significantly since Kap took a knee. As a Libertarian, I don't like being told what to do. If my behavior isn't materially hurting someone, leave me the hell alone. What I think, do or say is none of your concern, and I don't care what you think, do or say. Read that again, because it's important: If my behavior isn't materially hurting someone, leave me the hell alone. If your behavior isn't materially hurting me, I respect your choices as well.

However, I was also raised in a military family, and my grandfather emigrated to this country to flee the atrocities committed by the Ottoman Empire upon the Armenian people. I believe in the flag, the Anthem, the Pledge, and I firmly believe we are incredibly fortunate to live in the greatest country on Earth. So, I bristle a bit when I see people disrespect the flag, and I have to wonder if those complaining have any idea how good they have it - Meanwhile the other side of my brain says, "but we can be better."

Currently, I'm of the opinion that:

* Pre-game isn't the place for your show of defiance.
* No one should be mandated to stand, hand on heart, during the Anthem.
* Dividing us into "standers and kneelers" has done far more harm than good, regardless of your position.

I'm a huge football fan (GO FALCONS). I'm sad that it's come to this. I'll still watch games. I'll still root for my team, and I'll hope that this is simply another 'growing pain' and that it doesn't permanently affect the cohesiveness and unity that I know is present. I don't believe we're as divided as the media says, and I think we can do better.

Bandwagon, perfect description. Peer pressure, half-truths news, and blown out of proportion all come to mind when I look back. I think the whole "Police brutality" thing being biased towards blacks really stems from the blacks. I'm not trying to defend the cops one bit. No one, black, white, brown, red, or yellow should have to deal with it in any degree. But when you see innocent cops being slain by blacks in cold blood, you can expect a response. That response came in the form of added caution. A "shoot first, ask questions later" frame of mind learned that people are now out to kill cops. Hell, they even had an entire "march" dedicated to chanting about killing cops. In essence they've thrown the cops in a pit with a gun, a wolf and 3 dogs with limited information on identifying which is the wolf, and they all start charging the officer. I've always taken the stand that this change has to come from within. They want to preach equality and make statements like, "not all blacks are bad", then how about not all cops are bad, or not all whites are racist? Stop treating every cop like he's trying to kill you. Respect the badge. I promise it'll get better.

I think this issue is a symptom of a bigger problem this country faces: Intolerance and the unwillingness to listen to the other side.. I read an interesting op piece by Greg Tillery about the backstory to Colin Kaepernick's protest. I can't guarantee it's truth, but it's a short,worthwhile read. Here it is:

"How it all started, and how we got here.

(Unfortunately, the people that could learn something by reading this likely won't bother).

Did you know this?

Aug 14, 2016- Colin Kaepernick sits for the national anthem.....and no one noticed.

Aug 20th, 2016- Colin again sits, and again, no one noticed.

Aug 26th, 2016- Colin sits and this time he is met with a level of vitriol unseen against an athlete. Even the future President of the United States took shots at him while on the campaign trail. Colin went on to explain his protest had NOTHING to with the military, but he felt it hard to stand for a flag that didn't treat people of color fairly.

Then on on Aug 30th, 2016 Nate Boyer, a former Army Green Beret turned NFL long snapper, penned an open letter to Colin in the Army Times. In it he expressed how Colin's sitting affected him.

Then a strange thing happened. Colin was able to do what most Americans to date have not...
He listened.

In his letter, Mr. Boyer writes:
"I’m not judging you for standing up for what you believe in. It’s your inalienable right. What you are doing takes a lot of courage, and I’d be lying if I said I knew what it was like to walk around in your shoes. I’ve never had to deal with prejudice because of the color of my skin, and for me to say I can relate to what you’ve gone through is as ignorant as someone who’s never been in a combat zone telling me they understand what it’s like to go to war.
Even though my initial reaction to your protest was one of anger, I’m trying to listen to what you’re saying and why you’re doing it."

Mr. Boyer goes on to write "There are already plenty people fighting fire with fire, and it’s just not helping anyone or anything. So I’m just going to keep listening, with an open mind. I look forward to the day you're inspired to once again stand during our national anthem. I'll be standing right there next to you."

Empathy and understanding was shown by Mr. Boyer.........and Mr. Kaepernick reciprocated.

Colin invited Nate to San Diego where the two had a 90 minute discussion and Nate proposed Colin kneel instead of sit.

But why kneel? In a military funeral, after the flag is taken off the casket of the fallen military member, it is smartly folded 13 times and then presented to the parents, spouse or child of the fallen member by a fellow service member while KNEELING. The two decided that kneeling for the flag would symbolize his reverence for those that paid the ultimate sacrifice while still allowing Colin to peacefully protest the injustices he saw.

Empathy, not zealotry under the guise of patriotism, is the only way meaningful discussion can be had. Mr. Kaepernick listened to all of you that say he disrespects the military and extended an olive branch to find a peace.

When will America listen to him?

We can all learn from this backstory. The truth often lies in the middle. Seek to learn the opposing side's point."


Back to Bubba. I'll always personally stand for the anthem. That's how I am, but I also respect if one chooses to protest during it in a respectful manner. And that's what's been happening at NFL games. The American flag is supposed to represent American ideals, which includes freedom of speech, even if one disagrees with certain things. If people with opposing views actively listen to each other instead of retreating to their partisan political comfort zones and pointing fingers (both sides do it), this issue would not be as volatile. Just because Donald Trump and the rest of our politicians do that daily, doesn't mean we all should be as bad. Food for thought.

Regarding OBJ's gesture. If you were at that Eagle-Giant game, you'd probably better understand why Beckham Jr. made that gesture at Eagle fans. It's not something Joe Buck would have pointed out. I was there behind the Giants bench and listened to the nastiness spewed at him all game while he was on the sideline, and some of it included racial comments. It got a bit uncomfortable listening to it at times, but I'm sure he's used to it playing in Philly every season. you also might not have known, Eagle fans cheered loudly when he got clotheslined tackled, getting injured. Then he got booed after he got up after a couple minutes to head back to the sideline. So his fist move probably wasn't a smart choice of response to those Eagle fans, but it was kinda understandable given how rude they were to him all game. fwiw, his lifting leg dog pee move was much funnier but it drew a 15 yd. unsportsmanlike penalty. Again, it's better to hear both sides of the story before casting judgement.

Gee! A decent, civil discussion in a political forum! How did that happen?

Give Howie a chance.... j/k.

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:04 pm

Give Howie a chance.... j/k.

Good stuff, Joel.

I don't have a problem with the fist. My kid used to do that after he laid a particularly violent tackle on someone - and he's white.

It meant something before the BLM morons hijacked it, and I'll not let some whiny social justice nitwit dictate what my words or actions mean.

I don't have a problem with the words, though, either. Once upon a time, we learned that people stop using them if they don't get a reaction. OBJ would be wise to remember he is a man, an athlete, an employee, a superstar and a son. His skin color is irrelevant.

Now, his hair? Imma make fun of that all day long. B**** spends more time at the salon than both of our wives.

OBJ's hair style does seem rather odd and requires a lotta maintenance. But if you're an extreme narcissist who craves having the spotlight constantly, and can afford the maintenance, I suppose it's effective. By the way, Mr.Trump seems to be doing the same thing...(ahem)

Truth.

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:52 am

Regarding OBJ's gesture. If you were at that Eagle-Giant game, you'd probably better understand why Beckham Jr. made that gesture at Eagle fans. It's not something Joe Buck would have pointed out. I was there behind the Giants bench and listened to the nastiness spewed at him all game while he was on the sideline, and some of it included racial comments. It got a bit uncomfortable listening to it at times, but I'm sure he's used to it playing in Philly every season. you also might not have known, Eagle fans cheered loudly when he got clotheslined tackled, getting injured. Then he got booed after he got up after a couple minutes to head back to the sideline. So his fist move probably wasn't a smart choice of response to those Eagle fans, but it was kinda understandable given how rude they were to him all game. fwiw, his lifting leg dog pee move was much funnier but it drew a 15 yd. unsportsmanlike penalty. Again, it's better to hear both sides of the story before casting judgement.

The stuff you don't see or hear any explanation about. Thank you for that.

I will say, (yes as a white man) I know what it feels like to be singled out because of color. I spent 8 years in Hawaii as a Navy dependent while my father was stationed at Pearl Harbor. I went to public school there and as the new kid AND white, I got hate from a lot of the Hawaiian kids. So, I can relate.

I'm having a serious problem with many of the anti-NFL crowd and the politicians like Mike Pence with that grandstanding act he put on yesterday.

They haven't had a problem for years (and probably most of them have taken part themselves) in disrespecting the flag, anthem and country with the cheering, clapping, catcalling and whistling that begins before and continues during the playing of the last line of the national anthem. They're clapping for the performer or the fact that pregame festivities are over and the game is finally about to begin. They haven't had a problem with concession stands being open and conducting business during the anthem. They haven't had a problem with people talking and fidgeting during the anthem or walking about the stadium concourses.

Additionally, Mike Pence and virtually every member of Congress disrespects the American flag daily by wearing it as a lapel pin. From the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs "Guidelines for Display of the Flag"

https://www.va.gov/opa/publications/cel ... isplay.pdf

"...Public Law 94-344, known as the Federal Flag Code, contains rules for handling and displaying
the U.S. flag...Out of respect for the U.S. flag, NEVER: ....use it as wearing apparel, bedding or drapery. It should not be used on a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be attached to the uniform of patriotic
organizations, military personnel, police officers and firefighters..."

srellim234 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:11 am

Additionally, Mike Pence and virtually every member of Congress disrespects the American flag daily by wearing it as a lapel pin...

To piggy back on srellim's point, a twitter user posted a string of tweets about the topic that I thought was relevant.

(it's a very long photo, if the powers that be want it as just a link I would have no issues with it being edited)

RCA - Thank you for that. When I reached the post about advertising my mind immediately went to the FoxNews banner across the bottom of the screen on their broadcasts. It would appear they're disrespecting the flag 24 hours a day and proud of it.

Great point. RCA drilled it.

My position has somewhat changed from my initial knee-jerk reaction, as you can see from my long missive above. That's a great example, RCA.

There is one aspect of the issue that I haven't seen discussed very much. Since we're looking at a protest by a relatively small minority of players, what would be the effect if we just ignored the protesters completely? Support the vast majority of the players, coaches, trainers, referees, etc. who do stand for the flag and anthem. Simply shut up about the others. The protesters will either drop the protest or go away to find another avenue of protest.

They continue their protests because they know they have been successful in getting peoples' attentions. Their goal now is to get the discussion to the subject they want it to be focused on. If they are totally ignored, they will never get their way.

I'm only addressing those people who are protesting the protesters and taking their wrath out on the majority of the NFL who do stand and pay their respect in the manner desired. I'm not making a judgement here on the civil rights issue this whole thing started out as.

Great point - the hue and cry was really unexpected... and I'm a little embarrassed that I bought into it initially.

I agree too. In a less politically charged society, that should have been the case. Heck, not long ago, networks rarely broadcast the anthem except if someone famous sang it. Regretfully, that boat has sailed. Once the politicians, media, and social media pounced and exploited it to advance their own agendas, it's become almost impossible to get people to listen to each other.

srellim234 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:10 pm

There is one aspect of the issue that I haven't seen discussed very much....

Why do people protest the way they do?

Does any one remember a few years ago when the local black pastor protested during his sermon? Of course not because he was literally preaching to the choir.

Does any one remember when members representing BLM blocked a highway in Oakland in protest? Many on both sides of the issue didn't like that they blocked peoples movement and right to travel.

So the NFL protest is nearly perfect in a few ways...

• It reaches the right demographic unlike my first example

• It doesn't harm anyone unlike my second example

The goal is to get as much attention as possible without harming anyone. In order to do that you need to hit people financially or emotionally. Combine that with reaching the right demographic plus what does your typical NFL fans hold dearest...their love for country and military.

If no one batted an eye then players and fans would have moved on long ago. Who knows the direction the movement would have went if Knee-Gate didn't catch on. Maybe a more eye catching violent movement. Unfortunately the only way it stays effective is for people to continue to think they are protesting what the typical NFL fan holds near and dear when in reality that couldn't be further than the truth. In a perfect world people would continue discussing the issues and make the necessary reforms while not feeling like those protesting hate what they love.

Kapernick might be responsible for shifting the criminal justice movement from a violent one to a civil one by just taking a knee.

Yep. All of that.

As someone retired from the CJ field, I just struggle with they hypocrisy and horrible statistical conclusions that even led to this thing.

Truth be told, some people need to be corrected in their behavior. I've only had one negative interaction with a LEO (despite being pulled over, detained, and been an 'official contact' at least 50 times) - and on that occasion, I deserved worse than I got.

So, when people behave like animals, or the surrounding environment is dangerous and in flux, or bystanders are riled up, the default action is to preserve officer safety. Period. AS WELL IT SHOULD BE. No, you can't expect an officer to endure any type of harm just because you want to act a fool. Nope, never, no way, no how, end of story. If you want a smooth, peaceful interaction, then act like someone raised you.

LEO misbehavior is, considering the # of contacts made per day, per officer, per department, per state, nationwide, is infinitesimally low, statistically-speaking. We're talking, you're more likely to die from having a meteorite hit you in the head than to be mistreated by law enforcement. HOWEVER, the likelihood of being injured or killed on the job is, for an LEO, statistically MUCH higher than it is for some higher-paid professions... like being an NFL player.

Most of the people whining and complaining couldn't pass the physical or mental requirements to wear a badge. And, since LEOs are just regular people like us, don;t you think that grates on them, gets in their head? Sure it does. It's inevitable.

I'd love to see departments increase training, protection for LEOs and suspects, and weed out any "crossing the line" activity among their ranks. That's important. But more than that, I'd like to see us return to a community that appreciates and respects our LEOs for the deep sacrifices they make and the number of times they saddle up and roll out, knowing full well it could be their last shift of their career.

AND, I'm not entertaining this "they started it" bullshyte. Change starts in the community. Show some respect, show some deference, demand more of the department in a positive way, and watch how awesome things can be.

My wife retired in April after twenty-six years as an LEO in L.A. County. She echos your sentiments. She couldn't wait to retire because of the changes taking place on our streets. She wishes the continuous training she received here was mandatory for every law enforcement agency everywhere. The vast majority of the time the people you are dealing with are not bad people; they are good people in a bad place or a bad circumstance. Treat people with respect; 99.99 percent of the time they will reciprocate. As time goes on, however, our society is moving away from that belief.

Even she admits there are too many departments in this country being run with an "us against them" frame of mind. Those are the departments the protesters need to direct their anger at. A generalized protest such as this won't be effective since some departments ARE doing things the right way and the poor departments will never recognize they are the problem until the protests are specifically directed at them.

srellim234 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:10 pm

There is one aspect of the issue that I haven't seen discussed very much. Since we're looking at a protest by a relatively small minority of players, what would be the effect if we just ignored the protesters completely? Support the vast majority of the players, coaches, trainers, referees, etc. who do stand for the flag and anthem. Simply shut up about the others. The protesters will either drop the protest or go away to find another avenue of protest.

They continue their protests because they know they have been successful in getting peoples' attentions. Their goal now is to get the discussion to the subject they want it to be focused on. If they are totally ignored, they will never get their way.

I'm only addressing those people who are protesting the protesters and taking their wrath out on the majority of the NFL who do stand and pay their respect in the manner desired. I'm not making a judgement here on the civil rights issue this whole thing started out as.

Treat them like the "runners" at games. You know, the idiots who strip down and hop the wall. Just to run on field and get tackled on national tv. They've stopped showing these on tv for good reason and it works.

Just film the players at a height that only the standing players/staff are visible or only show the side of the field of which ever team came out to the field. If all players kneel or no one comes out for the anthem, commercial break that bish.

Force the issue off the field and actually into the community where it needs to be.

For television purposes don't show the anthem at all at most games. We're watching an entertainment broadcast, not a political or nationalist "rah-rah" event. As FoxSports president Eric Shanks explained his network not broadcasting it, they use that time to fit the commercials and be back on the air for the kickoff.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2017/ ... dcast.html

Personally, I would like to see the anthem only played at championship and international sports events. Make the anthem at a sporting event special again. Any more, people at all level of sports can't wait to get it over so they can start the game.

Steve, give her a long hug from me. She's my hero - period.

As I'm sure you both know all too well, it's sad that even with all of that continuous quality improvement, attention to cutting-edge technology and best practices, you'd STILL find the majority of the [admittedly clueless] public having a negative perception of the department.

It's real hard not to fall into the "us vs them" when LEOs risk their lives to arrest some dirtbag, only to endure hassles from the genpop, the press and the defense attorneys, only to have said dirtbag pop up on the same streets a week or two later.

Make that two long hugs... and if we ever meet up, dinner is on me.

Thanks. There's an outside chance we could meet up by next summer.

1. One of my wife's brothers just moved to AZ but I don't know where yet. Maybe a meet-up if it's on the way to or near him.
2. Next summer we're driving to the East Cost again and we're a little tired of I-40. There's a chance we'll be taking I-10 and I-20 instead. It only makes the cross country trip one hour longer. Since we usually leave here around sun-up on these trips that would put us near you at lunch time. Hooking up would be great.

AZhitman wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:45 pm

Yep. All of that.
As someone retired from the CJ field, I just struggle with they hypocrisy and horrible statistical conclusions that even led to this thing...

So this shifts the conversation from what and why, to should.

I think that protesting for criminal justice reform/LEO misconduct is valid.

From the LEO perspective, statistically there will always be bad apples when a group is of a certain size and it takes one bad act to destroy all the good work an entire department has accomplished. LEOs deal with the worst society has to offer on a daily basis and so it's understandable to be on edge when interacting with the public. To often people use the wrong examples of LEO misconduct and claim it's brutality which leads to a "boy who cried wolf" scenario. One example that stands out to me is Mike Brown. Finally many of the controversial incidents could have been avoided by changing body language, tone of voice, and hand placement. I understand their frustration and why they feel threatened.

From a non-LEO perspective it is very frustrating when obvious misconduct leads to an "internal investigation" that leads no where. It seems like too often there is no accountability outside of paid leave until people stop paying attention then back on the force. I think these protests are bringing attention to these situations and causing departments to shift how they handle them.

Much of LEO training revolves around the "us vs them" military themed training. Officers get written up if they don't fire their weapons when other officers do. When an officer does something wrong, it's "us vs them" so I will not challenge it or bring it up to my superiors. When you do, you become ousted by the department because you went against the code. I speak to people in the industry about these issues and the answer is "they are idiots and they will get caught eventually". While true, they might get caught but how many lives will they affect until they get caught? The "us vs them" eventually leads to the people vs police and I feel this is why we have the "Black lives vs Blue lives" nonsense.

I disagree that there is no issue because statistically things are fine, I think what we are seeing is that people don't like the direction LE is heading (probably due to the cell phone camera), want more accountability, and would like to see reform.

AZhitman wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:45 pm

But more than that, I'd like to see us return to a community that appreciates and respects our LEOs for the deep sacrifices they make and the number of times they saddle up and roll out, knowing full well it could be their last shift of their career.

I very much agree with this.

IMO LE are losing the PR battle because when things go wrong it's bigger news than when things go right. It tells you something about our society. In some parts of the world when police do the right thing it's celebrated because it's not something that happens often. In the US we have high standards for those who have voluntarily taken on the responsibility to do the very difficult work LEOs do. When they do things right no one bats an eye.

What would help officers is community policing. We have shifted away from this and it has left communities devoid of positive officer interaction and left with only law infraction interactions. If every time you met with an officer lead to negative outcomes, plus when you watch on TV about the abuse of trust some officers commit your view about the profession starts to sour. It becomes easier to think "all officers are ______".

Officers are people, and they are more often then not doing the right thing and community policing brings the individual forward instead of organization. These aren't corrupt monsters they are Derick down the street that patrols around my school and asks if I did my homework. They are Officer Reynolds who can be a bit cranky in the morning but always asks how my mom and dad are doing before I catch the bus to work.

I feel that lack of community outreach because of changes in policy is what has shifted police sentiment. I would love to hear LEOs thoughts on that.

AZhitman wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:45 pm

Show some respect, show some deference, demand more of the department in a positive way

I'm not sure what asking for reform in a positive way means but it doesn't help LEOs when no brainer reforms like body cameras are being pushed back on by police unions.

Good stuff, RCA. I'm a big fan of community policing.

A couple thoughts, if I may.

"it is very frustrating when obvious misconduct leads to an "internal investigation" that leads no where."

Public perception... ah, she's a bugaboo. In discussing IA, you're right in my wheelhouse. Here's the deal, though: The public is not privy to the outcome of an internal affairs investigation. I used to get this gripe all the time from staff - "Y'all conduct an investigation, but nothing ever happens to the people." Put frankly, that's because it's none of your business. If we publicized every employee's disciplinary action (or lack thereof), then we'd have a big privacy lawsuit on our hands. I'm amazed when anyone thinks human resources actions are somehow their business. Of course, there's the possibility that there was no cause for discipline, as well... or that the incident simply highlighted a need for a certain type of training, which was subsequently implemented. BUT, public perception is always a lot stronger (and louder) than facts, and very few citizens want to learn about how tings work - it's easier just to whine and throw stones.

Body cameras aren't exactly a "no-brainer reform." Certainly, they have their place, and they appear on the surface to be a panacea. However, there are a ton of issues people don't think about.

Turning over bodycam footage to the public or media is a no-no. Privacy concerns are tantamount, and mission-creep can then lead to misuse as a surveillance tool. If I'm in the background, I don't want my likeness or activities broadcast - I was minding my own business. The ACLU has actually spoken out about this (which leaves them in a bit of a dilemma, but that's another topic).

Departmental standardization of best practices is another area of contention. To think that PHX should have the same policies as a town of 3500 citizens is problematic, considering logistics. Unions have gotten involved in the discussion, further muddying the waters (imagine that) and complicating an already complex matter.

Lastly, video evidence doesn't necessarily speak for itself. Two people watching the same incident can have vastly different perceptions, some of which are rooted in their own biases. For those who claim the videos "speak for themselves," they're very simply wrong. A trained LEO use-of-force expert and an in-custody criminal's mother are going to disagree on what the video show, NO MATTER WHAT.

The bright side: It's generating discussion. That's important. Much more important than whatever video "evidence" the cameras are purported to capture.