LET GARY DEBATE, you p******

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themadscientist
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Two sponsors have pulled support for the debates because of Gary Johnson being excluded.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washin ... y-johnson-

Multinational corporation Philips Electronics and the women's organization the YWCA both dropped their sponsorship after being flooded with E-mails and letters from supporters of former Republican New Mexico Gov. Johnson, as well as two election watchdog groups, Open Debates and Help the Commission.
The debate process is flawed. It is designed to herd voters to the two major parties. Check the fix.

http://www.opendebates.org/theissue/

The American electorate needs to be exposed to all the choices out there. Unfortunately, most people are, oh, whats the proper term? Oh yes, f*** stupid and lazy. You have to shove it right in their face and repeat an jump start their brains. The fact that only Obama and Romney get the TV time means a lot of those lazy voters who might have liked the Libertarian, or Green or other parties' candidates won't even know they are an option.

Well, Gary will be doing online commentary during the debate. Take the time and see what he has to say.
https://plus.google.com/events/c6lgvqkp ... 6fqq3gt7v8

Obama and Romney are spineless shills and couldn't handle the possibility of a third voice pointing out how similar they are and asking hard questions. Not exactly leadership qualities.


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Some examples of what you would hear if Gary was allowed in the room.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/JohnsonL

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Is Johnson going to be the next sinkhole for angry libertarians?

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Expand on that comment.

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Well, its like I've always said about Paul. He had real potential until his supporters came along. Mostly angry libertarians, who though mostly right on policy, couldn't sell icewater to people in hell because they make Charlie Sheen look like a rational human being. Constantly belittling and insulting people who dare to engage them in discussions, posting comments filled with vitriol and negativity towards the opposition more than supporting their own positions. I, of course, don't seek to describe you in this, Paul does have rational supporters, but they seem, at least from my experience, to be the exception, not the rule. So what I mean is, are these angry libertarians finding a new home with Johnson?

And truth be known, I like Johnson, and if he had more than a snowballs chance in hell of gaining any traction whatsoever, or of actually approaching even half of a majority of votes, I'd probably tell Romney to jump in a lake. Sadly, that's not the case. I liken it to this analogy:

"America may finally have found a spot to slip out of the burning building, except Johnson, and the old Paulistas now Johnsoners, have us by the ankles and won't let us out."

Believe me when I tell you I'm the first to lament the fact that our system has become the trash heap it is, and we have to support the smoldering candidate rather than the flaming one, but for now, until we "change washington from the outside" then it is what it is. Supporting Johnson is tantamount to jumping off a burning building when there's a fire escape just to your left.

Now, all that said, I have no problem allowing Johnson into the debates, and in fact, I believe if Romney were to nod and high five the guy a few times on stage on a few of the big issues, Romney might just get a decent bump out of it.

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I saw some of those Libertarians you speak of and they are the undoing of the ideology. Their elevation of the man over the message will not let them see that Johnson is VERY close to Paul on a lot of the issues or allow them to act on that. Johnson is on the ballot in 47 states and will likely be on at least two more by magic hour. Unless a Paul supporter is a one-issue voter and that issue is abortion or gay marriage, then is little preventing them from supporting Johnson other than a cult of personality. If Paul cared about the movement he would endorse Johnson and free his Paulbots from their coded actions.

I've been called that many times and I have always found it weak and a pitiful excuse for honest rhetoric, but that is not to say there are not people who fit that description, there are. That being said, to suggest that behavior like that is only evident amongst Libertarians or that they exhibit a more pervasive amount of it is to deny the people of like devotion vitriol and violence in both the Republican and Democratic parties and that is textbook s***.

Now, what appears to be your suggestion that Romney exhibits anything that suggests HE is ANY more of an "escape" that Obama, someone he emulates on most of the burning issues of the day is laughable. I will give Obama this. He still has some people that are blindly following him with enthusiasm. EVERY Romney supporter I have come across breaks down into a few subsets.

1. Reflexively votes republican and would vote for a ham and cheese on rye if it had an (R) written on it in ketchup. They are the quietest group and don't talk much to non-Republicans or even other Republicans. Voting Republican is like eating sleeping and s***; you just do that.

2. Hard core on a single issue and will vote for ANYONE who says the "right" thing and Romney said what he was supposed to, this week at least; he'll forget and say something different next week. They are easy to peg as they turn every discussion to their core issue, say what Romney said that they wanted to hear and gloss over anything else.

3. Desperate for anything different than what we have now and will vote for anyone who promises to be different, but does not fact check those statements nor vet the change against the framework of reality. Example "I'll cut taxes, but expand military spending and magically reduce the deficit. They are the apologists who try to qualify Romney's demonstrated failures and inconsistencies with the s*** things he says he does.

4. People who hate Obama and will vote for whoever the alternative is and the media would have you think Romney is your only hope. They will push Romney on the basis that he is not Obama.

The common theme is none of them are voting FOR Romney, they're vote was already lined up and just needed the RNC to give them their orders. That's really scary.

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I hate the people in 3 and 4. My entire office is full of 3s and 4s, and I'm the only one voting for Obama.

I don't like Obama, and I don't like a lot of his policies, but at least he has defined what his plan is. He has at least given specifics about tax policy, which Romney has yet to do. Known known versus known unknown.

Either the horse with the gimp leg or the horse that can't see straight.

And, I agree with TMS on this one. If Ross Perot could join the debate with the Reform party, why the hell can't Gary Johnson join the debate with the Libertarian party? Ross did amazingly well, he scored like 3% of the popular vote, which is no small feat.

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Marenta wrote:
And, I agree with TMS on this one. If Ross Perot could join the debate with the Reform party, why the hell can't Gary Johnson join the debate with the Libertarian party? Ross did amazingly well, he scored like 3% of the popular vote, which is no small feat.
Actually, Perot did better than 3% of the popular vote, it was closer to 19%, which was huge, but he won zero electoral votes. I think the primary reason Perot got into in the debates and Johnson will not is money. Perot spent a ton of his own money getting his message out effectively, to the point that at one stage, he led some polls. Unfortunately, the Libertarian party cannot keep pace with the DNC/RNC fundraising machines, especially now given the relaxed rules about donations & Super Pacs. Johnson has a good message, it's a shame it's not getting noticed by enough of the voters.

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I miss that crazy little man with with his charts.

"see, that line is taller. That's good. The other lines are shorter. That's no good. I'm for a taller line on charts."

Image

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themadscientist wrote: 4. People who hate Obama and will vote for whoever the alternative is and the media would have you think Romney is your only hope. They will push Romney on the basis that he is not Obama.

The common theme is none of them are voting FOR Romney, they're vote was already lined up and just needed the RNC to give them their orders. That's really scary.
I guess I'm a number 4. I do take issue with wording though. For one thing, I wasn't waiting for the RNC to tell me a God damn thing. A vote for anyone other then Romney is a vote for Obama. Period dot.

I can't change the way our political system works. There are 2 big parties, the rest simply don't have enough support to change anything. So what am I left with? I'm left with making choices based on things that will benefit me the most. Obama doesn't have anything to say to me. He's against coal and his policies have seriously effected my family in a negative manner. Obamacare has my healthcare premiums going up. Obama wants to raise taxes and grow the Gov.

So you'll have to excuse us #4's for wanting to get rid of him. We hate him and will vote for any alternative because what choice do we have?
themadscientist wrote:Gary on Cavuto after the debate.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/175211256400 ... t_id=86929
I love Cavuto, this was an excellent interview. Thanks for posting it. Johnson has some views that I could fully get behind. Unfortunately he's not a viable option to oppose Obama. Not because he's not a better choice, but because our system is broken.

I'm tired of having to vote for the lesser of 2 douchbags Mike. Every 4 years I think to myself, THIS?...this is the best we have to offer? How is that possible?

Unfortunately I don't see anything changing any time soon. How did we get to this point anyway? How do we make changes to stop it from repeating indefinitely?
Marenta wrote:I hate the people in 3 and 4. My entire office is full of 3s and 4s, and I'm the only one voting for Obama.

I don't like Obama, and I don't like a lot of his policies, but at least he has defined what his plan is. He has at least given specifics about tax policy, which Romney has yet to do. Known known versus known unknown.
He's defined his plan? Really? How has he defined his plan to rescue this country from debt? Raise taxes on the rich...that's it...that's the plan you're happy with. How is taxing the rich going to get us out of debt? All taxing the rich is is a credit card extension to a drunk sitting at a bar during happy hour. Where's his mention of a detailed plan to cut spending?

The #4's hate you right back btw.

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WDRacing wrote:A vote for anyone other then Romney is a vote for Obama. Period dot.
If all the people out there that believed this voted for a candidate rather than against one, this might change.
WDRacing wrote:He's against coal
I believe you mean pollution.
WDRacing wrote:Obamacare has my healthcare premiums going up
Mine were going up nicely before he took office. I blame the unhealthy people that make me bear the costs of their care. Not politicians.
WDRacing wrote:Obama wants to raise taxes and grow the Gov.
Raising taxes brings in revenue that helps offset costs. There are two methods to balancing a budget and both should probably be used where possible. There is a limit to how much you can actually cut. Similarly, there is a limit to how much additional revenue you can raise. Any candidate claiming to balance the budget by ONLY cutting or ONLY taxing is foolish. None of the candidates I've seen all year fall into this category, however. I know that may be difficult to accept though.
WDRacing wrote:He's defined his plan? Really? How has he defined his plan to rescue this country from debt? Raise taxes on the rich...that's it...that's the plan you're happy with. How is taxing the rich going to get us out of debt? All taxing the rich is is a credit card extension to a drunk sitting at a bar during happy hour. Where's his mention of a detailed plan to cut spending?
I'm not going to search it out, but he has made proposals to cut spending. If you take the blinders off for a second you might see them.

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AppleBonker wrote: I believe you mean pollution.
No. Coal. He implicitly stated that he would destroy the coal industry.

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AppleBonker wrote:
WDRacing wrote:A vote for anyone other then Romney is a vote for Obama. Period dot.
If all the people out there that believed this voted for a candidate rather than against one, this might change.
WDRacing wrote:He's against coal
I believe you mean pollution.
WDRacing wrote:Obamacare has my healthcare premiums going up
Mine were going up nicely before he took office. I blame the unhealthy people that make me bear the costs of their care. Not politicians.
WDRacing wrote:Obama wants to raise taxes and grow the Gov.
Raising taxes brings in revenue that helps offset costs. There are two methods to balancing a budget and both should probably be used where possible. There is a limit to how much you can actually cut. Similarly, there is a limit to how much additional revenue you can raise. Any candidate claiming to balance the budget by ONLY cutting or ONLY taxing is foolish. None of the candidates I've seen all year fall into this category, however. I know that may be difficult to accept though.
WDRacing wrote:He's defined his plan? Really? How has he defined his plan to rescue this country from debt? Raise taxes on the rich...that's it...that's the plan you're happy with. How is taxing the rich going to get us out of debt? All taxing the rich is is a credit card extension to a drunk sitting at a bar during happy hour. Where's his mention of a detailed plan to cut spending?
I'm not going to search it out, but he has made proposals to cut spending. If you take the blinders off for a second you might see them.
1, Say that when there are two Liberal candidates running against one Republican. Once the two parties makes their endorsement, everyone else becomes invisible. That isn't going to change until the two party system is completely abolished. So until then, people like myself are stuck in the current situation.

2, Did I say pollution? No. In case you haven't been awake in the last 4 years, we're in a friggin recession. Killing the coal industry kills jobs. Not just coal jobs either. Let me break it down for you. What happens to the towns that used to have open coal mines when there main source of income is shut down? What happens to a town that used to have a functioning coal burning power plant that can't get a permit renewed? The town fails and the people suffer because no one has money to buy anything. It's a compounded problem. Mean while, China pumps out more pollution in one month then we do in a year.

Here's another tid bit, coal is our most abundant resource...your idea is to ignore it and what waste more money on solar and wind? They don't produce enough power to off set ANYTHING. 2 coal burning power plants produce more power then every single wind mill in this entire country. We spent 90 billion on "green energy", I say it would have been better spent on clean coal research. Regardless, point is, coal produces jobs. What doesn't this country have? Jobs. What do we need? JOBS. If we keep on this path it won't matter how much pollution we didn't produce because our Nation will have economically collapsed.

My brother-in-law owns a mining company and a few mines. He could hire another 1000 people tomorrow if power plants could get permits renewed to burn coal and EPA restrictions were put back to the levels they were before BO. One of the large mines in VA could hire 20,000 people tomorrow if they could get permits. Considering that the country as a whole is only producing 150,000 new jobs a month, give or take on a few on that number, turning coal back on Nation wide would come very close to doubling that number RIGHT NOW. No Gov spending required, just lift a few restrictions...that's it. Compound those jobs in the coal industry because there are people spending again, so other businesses can reopen and rehire people. AND oh btw, more people working means more revenue for the Gov to offset the damn debt problem. ALL by simply removing newly installed regulations. Or stay the f*** course and tell those people that could be working that you've chosen to save the tree's instead.

3, Blame whoever you want. Obamacare IS directly responsible for my premiums going up so I CAN blame him.

4, Obama has a previous record of growing Gov and spending like a drunk. He has NO record of cutting anything nor trying to balance any of his initiatives. I'll go by his record and not what he says.

5, Dude...blinders? Look at his record. Obama has a clear record of spending only. Now he wants to increase taxes and we're supposed to ignore his previous 4 years of ringing the bell at the bar and yelling "drinks on me"...NOPE, not this kid. He spends like a drunk and now he wants a credit extension because happy hour is about to start.

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stebo0728 wrote:No. Coal. He implicitly stated that he would destroy the coal industry.
Source? Not doubting you, I just must've missed this comment.

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AppleBonker wrote: Source? Not doubting you, I just must've missed this comment.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... l-Industry
Obama wrote: If someone wants to build a coal factory, they can, its just that it will bankrupt them
And incase you're one of these anti-Breitbart nuts

http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statemen ... nkrupt-co/

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Fair enough. Though, I'd love to hear more details about the coal plants that are in trouble under newer regulations (how old are they? what kind of emissions do they produce compared to newer plants?). I have actually worked on some projects designed at reducing emissions from older coal-fired plants, so I suppose one could argue that the regulations have helped provide me with a job. Just the other side of the coin I guess.

I understand the concern over jobs and the cost to the public that can be attributed to that. But what about other costs? Health-related issues arising from the use of coal? Environmental costs (not looking for a debate on GW, so let's avoid that)?

My point is simply that these issues aren't nearly as black/white as some make them out to be.

And WD, the argument that "China is doing worse" is flawed in my eyes. The whole two wrongs don't make a right thing...

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Its kinda funny, as people shift toward more electric cars, thinking they are helping the environment (besides the gas price that is) they are disillusioned. Except for areas that are afforded alternate sources, they are shifting energy production back onto coal as they plug their "green" cars into the wall.

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^THAT!

I love wiping that smug smile of those people's faces. I'm all for alternative energy, but I require actual results. An electric car plugged into a dirty power source is no more environmentally friendly that an idling gas engine. Moving the pollution upstream from you is just self-serving guilt white out and it's fun to scrape off.

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I can't disagree with either of the two above posts. However, I pose a question (might seem primarily aimed at stebo as he has made comments of this nature before):

Is there really a strong incentive for private industry to move to a cleaner fuel/energy source?

I would posit that the private sector will maintain the status quo. It is currently optimized for their profits. If we do that, at some point do we become too far gone and suffer when forced to switch? Additionally, are there other impacts (again, environmental for one) that really don't motivate private industry as the rewards aren't really tangible in the form of profits?

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See here is where things get dicey. The public just wants a product. By and large, people don't really buy a car based on its "carbon footprint". Until the last decade no one even worried about how much gas a car consumed when buying it, at 80 red coins per gallon who cared? Businesses don't cater to anyone but who may or may not buy their products. You are right, there is no incentive for a business to retool its systems to be more environment friendly, UNLESS their demand source demands it. Look at gas consumption, perfect example. Except for the stringent California standards, no car companies cared to better the MPG ratings of their vehicles. The populous didn't care, they just wanted a car. Now its an issue with $4 gas. And guess what, companies are getting serious about it. Why? Certainly not because Al Gore pointed his finger at them. Its because the demand source began to demand the change. I think that's the only real way to influence change in capitalism, influence it at the demand level, and the supply will comply.

Now how do we go about this. From a minimal government standpoint, I say you progressively increase measures just until they start to work, and no further. First, educate. We honestly don't even have to have a GW debate. The global climate should not be the big push. Local climate, smog levels, localized climates are absolutely effected by man, regardless of your position as to our influence globally, we DO influence locally. Rather than some goose chase about global climate, educate that changes will make a person's local environment better. But lets be realistic, seldom does education alone work on a large populous, especially one beholden to Honey Boo Boo. If education alone does not produce enough demand for the change, you up the ante a bit more. You can debate what those steps are. My thoughts are, most counties, especially urban ones, have yearly requirements for emmissions testing. Currently its a no pass no drive scenario, but I think that's mishandled. I think a metric needs to be devised that a tax can be tied to. The older nastier car someone has, the more yearly emmission tax they pay, which this tax can be used for localized environmental betterment initiatives. I think this measure could go a long way toward creating a demand for cleaner energy cars.

As far as the electric company goes, I suppose you could impose a tax, not upon the company, but upon the consumer based on a similar metric. A company gets a yearly score, and its customers pay a tax based on that score. That creates a demand for that electric company to get cleaner. Lets face it, any prohibitive costs are just passed to the customer anyway, so in the name of transparency, originate the prohibitive costs on the consumer. Create the demand, dont force the supply.

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I can kind of get behind that, though there is a problem with utility companies. Typically people don't have options. And we don't really have the ability to grant consumers access to alternative utilities via the free market anymore as the cost of entry for upstarts would be prohibitive (especially competing against the current options who could lower prices until the upstart went under). Throws a kink in your idealistic response.

Sorry to threadjack, TMS. :D

And on an unrelated note, Honey Boo Boo is a great example of all that is wrong with our society (along with the Kardashians, Jersey Shore, etc).

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I'd like to temper my idea through TMS's libertarian mind, but my initial thoughts on your counter, is that you're right, consumers don't have much selection when it comes to energy, there's some, electric vs natural gas or propane, but thats not really a complete solution unless you were to have a generator for household power.

Really I was going more for a principle than an actual idea. The principle being, influence change through demand rather than through supply. Exactly how you go about that is up for debate.

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AppleBonker wrote:I can't disagree with either of the two above posts. However, I pose a question (might seem primarily aimed at stebo as he has made comments of this nature before):

Is there really a strong incentive for private industry to move to a cleaner fuel/energy source?

I would posit that the private sector will maintain the status quo. It is currently optimized for their profits. If we do that, at some point do we become too far gone and suffer when forced to switch? Additionally, are there other impacts (again, environmental for one) that really don't motivate private industry as the rewards aren't really tangible in the form of profits?
It's good business to recognize an unclaimed market and to forecast trends. Alternative energy is the future. How far into the future is debatable, but that we will migrate to that is inevitable. If I was an energy producer or user you can be damned sure I would have something going on in the basement. Don't do anything dramatic, just ramp up your technlogy and commitment and keep the motor warm to take advantage of any market activity.

As a consumer, if I could pull together the scratch, I would have build myself an electric car already and added solar panels and a wind generator to the house.

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Obama and Romney don't have the balls to get up on stage with the other candidates you betcha. BS talking points would have hangtime like a dead crow. :chuckle:

http://freeandequal.org/debates/four-ca ... ial-debate
Free and Equal Elections Foundation announced today that four candidates have confirmed their participation in the 2012 Presidential Debate at the University Club of Chicago on October 23: Libertarian Party candidate Gary Johnson, Green Party candidate Jill Stein, Constitution Party candidate Virgil Goode, and Justice Party candidate Rocky Anderson.

This debate is the only 2012 Presidential Debate featuring four candidates. The top six candidates were invited to participate. Democratic Party candidate and incumbent Barack Obama and Republican Party candidate Mitt Romney are welcome to participate in this historic debate. The moderator will be announced shortly.
Step up boys if you feel chippy.

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AppleBonker wrote: I understand the concern over jobs and the cost to the public that can be attributed to that. But what about other costs? Health-related issues arising from the use of coal? Environmental costs (not looking for a debate on GW, so let's avoid that)?

My point is simply that these issues aren't nearly as black/white as some make them out to be.

And WD, the argument that "China is doing worse" is flawed in my eyes. The whole two wrongs don't make a right thing...
I'll start with jobs and why they're more important then any other aspect right now. We're in the middle of a recession. It didn't end, idgaf what the smaht people of the Nation are saying. Until our UI number, the real one which is close to 17% iirc, is back to around 4.5 I'm going to consider us on temporary footing...slippery footing at that. As a Nation we're creating between 150,000 to 180,000 jobs per month, that doesn't even cover the birth rate, which is about 250,000. With coal under attack we're hurting people directly because there is no career they can transition into. There's no new power generation source that they can swap over to or get trained on the operation of etc. There are only so many pizza delivery slots. Entire towns are drying up, HAVE dried up for crying out loud. We're hurting people dude. Children have no food to eat. My family does a ton of volunteer work with UMCOR, United Methodist Core of Relief, and we volunteer at various "soup kitchen" type events and other sorts of things. I get to talk directly to people that are in a bad way. The suicide rate is skyrocketing brother. WE'RE HURTING PEOPLE.

You mentioned Health related issues. What about the people that lost their healthcare because they no longer have a job? What about their children? Oh they can get on certain State level programs, but that goes right back to chasing our financial tail because our Nation is already broke. Ever feed a hungry kid dude? Ever bare witness to a grown man breaking down while he's waiting in line to receive food? I have and the memory of it lingers for a long time. These people just want to get back to work and you're ok with telling them no? I'm sorry, but that's totally f*** up in my book. To me, the issue is very black and white. Go back to the pre-BO set of regulations and help these people TODAY! We could do it RIGHT NOW! No Gov program or bailout would be as effective. The jobs are right friggin there for crying out loud, they're just shut off. A simple flip of a switch could end the suffering of hundreds of thousands of people.

I'm passionate about this because I see the direct cause and effect.

My argument about China is very relevant. The point is, we're not stopping, or even close to putting a dent in, carbon emissions by doing what we're doing as long as China and all of the other sources of "pollution" exist. To paint a picture, because I like imagery :) think of car, any car will do, even an electric POS if that's how you roll. Now drive that car from Maine to Florida. When you get to Florida, take a nice clean micro fiber cloth and wipe down one quarter of the the left front wheel. Done! Yay! Because that's how much we're effecting the global output of pollution by killing coal.

Is it worth the price we're paying? Is it worth putting children to bed hungry? Is it worth watching people lose their homes and trashing their lively hood?

Jobs, it's what we need more then anything. Put these people to work and once we're on steady footing again as a Nation we can explore all the avenues to clean up our coal production and burning. But you don't put people out of work when there are NO f*** JOBS!!!!!!!!!

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Marenta
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There is no right or wrong way, Brian. It's all trial and error, even though we have a decent idea of the outcome given a certain set of circumstances.

Personally, I don't want to shxt in my living area. I like clean energy (Nuclear, my fave!) but there are drawbacks to everything.

Solar: The chemicals used to make the panels are so toxic to humans and the environment, it requires retarded amounts of controls to dispose of it properly.
Wind: The wind turbines screw with bird flight paths, and they also break up the landscape. While these are minor to most people, they do have an impact.. the whole butterfly wing flutter theory.
Natural Gas: It's a great way to produce power, however it requires so much piping and infrastructure to build, it is almost cost prohibitive.
Coal: Coal IS abundant and cheap. But, after living next to one of the largest coal power plants in the nation, I can reasonably say that coal is disgusting.
Nuclear: People are terrified of it, and rightfully so. While it is one of the most controlled and watchdogged sectors in power, it still has that "Oh, sh1t!" factor with it. Plus, we don't allow American companies to refine the spent fuel, like Canada or Russia. If we did allow the refinement of spent fuel, biomedical equipment and medicines would drop in price dramatically.

They all have their drawbacks. They all have their promises. Expanding ALL power is a win. The best solution, in my opinion, is to build on the infrastructure of the nation. Our power lines, water pipes, pumping stations, phone lines, you name it.. they're all dilapitated and in serious need of an upgrade in newer materials. The problem with this is that the companies have to foot the bill for these changes, even though it's something that supports the nation and probably should be under the auspices of the federal government and not private industry.

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Marenta wrote:There is no right or wrong way, Brian. It's all trial and error, even though we have a decent idea of the outcome given a certain set of circumstances.

Personally, I don't want to shxt in my living area. I like clean energy (Nuclear, my fave!) but there are drawbacks to everything.

Solar: The chemicals used to make the panels are so toxic to humans and the environment, it requires retarded amounts of controls to dispose of it properly.
Wind: The wind turbines screw with bird flight paths, and they also break up the landscape. While these are minor to most people, they do have an impact.. the whole butterfly wing flutter theory.
Natural Gas: It's a great way to produce power, however it requires so much piping and infrastructure to build, it is almost cost prohibitive.
Coal: Coal IS abundant and cheap. But, after living next to one of the largest coal power plants in the nation, I can reasonably say that coal is disgusting.
Nuclear: People are terrified of it, and rightfully so. While it is one of the most controlled and watchdogged sectors in power, it still has that "Oh, sh1t!" factor with it. Plus, we don't allow American companies to refine the spent fuel, like Canada or Russia. If we did allow the refinement of spent fuel, biomedical equipment and medicines would drop in price dramatically.

They all have their drawbacks. They all have their promises. Expanding ALL power is a win. The best solution, in my opinion, is to build on the infrastructure of the nation. Our power lines, water pipes, pumping stations, phone lines, you name it.. they're all dilapitated and in serious need of an upgrade in newer materials. The problem with this is that the companies have to foot the bill for these changes, even though it's something that supports the nation and probably should be under the auspices of the federal government and not private industry.
Here's the problem with what you just said.

People come first. Period dot. There IS a right way. If the regulation is going to hurt hundreds of thousands of people, you don't implement it. If you're going to regulate something that will impact the lives of people, part of your process during the regulations design has to take into account how you're going to fix any problems you create with said regulation. Otherwise YOU DON'T REGULATE. This wasn't done. So how do we fix it right now? Easy, reset the regs to pre-BO levels. Consider your "trial and error" phase complete and the trial was a failure. When something is has failed, you fix it. You don't press on with the failed policy out of spite. You hit the f*** reset button and put people back to work. When there is a method to reduce carbon emissions from coal burning or an alternative source that will supply jobs to all those who will be immediately effected, THEN implement new regulation. You don't just regulate something without factoring impact. That's how you fail and that's what we did.

Trial and error can't be done with peoples lives, especially on a scale that impacts such a large number of people. It's not like we didn't know we were in the middle of a recession. Our job losses were in full swing before they wrote these damn regulations. No one stopped for a damn second to think about the impact this was going to have on the people. It's criminal.

People are here to stay. Unfortunately we're consumers. That is never going to change. We reproduce and we consume. Eventually we'll run out of things to consume, that's just fact. We haven't developed the technology yet to change this.

All of these alternative energies you speak of simply don't produce enough power to off set anything. Accept nuclear. I'm a fan of Nuclear, always have been. But that's not here nor there. We don't have these nuclear plants right now, nor will we any time soon. We also don't have any money to build them. So how about we fix the current problem with jobs and help these people right now? How can we take away the hurt from hundreds of thousands of people RIGHT NOW? Flip the switch back to coal until the day comes where we can honestly say we have some good idea's to offset the impact of stepping away from it. Or clean it...whatever. Point is, we can put people back to work right now without spending a dime. Which brings me to my next problem with your statement.

Investing in the infrastructure is a great idea. To bad we're broke. Without our population working the Gov doesn't have enough revenue to fix anything. Picture the dog chasing it's tail.

Jobs are the key to digging ourselves out of this mess. Without jobs we as a people are failing and will not recover. No amount of Gov spending is going to fix it. We over regulate everything, from lemonade stands to coal production, the Gov's heavy hands are hurting people, not helping them.

So you'll have to excuse me if I don't agree with you about having a right or wrong way to do things. The right way is crystal clear to me.

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Just saying, as Florida rolls in, I see enough votes for Gary that would decide Florida.

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Saying what?


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